Gun Dog Forum

My 14 week old pup used to have some point in him. Our latest encounters with birds have been less than ideal. When he was 12 weeks old he was pointing everything that had wings or smelled like a bird. We were playing in a field while he was off lead and he found a young pigeon that had found it's way to the ground, he was able to pounce and grab it. He brought it to me and was chewing on it pretty good. Last week we planted a pigeon with a couple flight feathers pulled, he went in for the bird and flushed it, the bird didn't fly very well and he was able to chase it down. He grabbed it and ran for the sage brush. We couldn't find him until he was done with the bird. I have never had such a folly of errors. I have been getting him on as many wild birds as we can find everyday since and he has chased all of them down with out a single point. The drive has gone way way up if there is a positive that has come from this, over night he is now ranging out over a hundred yards and will reel it in when told. I know where my mistakes have been made.

Where should I go now, I am getting mixed advice from some friends, leave the birds alone and work on obedience until he is broke on whoa, or put him on lots and lots of birds he can't catch while he is still young.

Any opinions other than use a check cord and stop letting your dog catch birds you idiot.

Never work him off check cord. Keep pointing and retrieving separate. Work on pointing one day, retrieving either dead birds or bumpers the next.

He's young so you don't have a problem yet, but unchecked and uncorrected, look out.

http://www.georgehickox.com/about_georg ... icles.html read the published articles there is a lot of good info in them,

4dabirds wrote:http://www.georgehickox.com/about_georg ... icles.html read the published articles there is a lot of good info in them,

Thanks for the recommendation, I have read them all. His articles are why I had him off lead, he has recommended it in a couple of articles that I have read in regards to a pup of this age.

Example

"Also remember that these are not sessions for teaching the pup to come or hunt close. The pup should be allowed to run and chase to its heart’s content-without being hacked on. (Believe me, both you and the dog will have more fun)"

I wish he had a certified bird eater article.

He;s not a certified bird eater yet.....take him off birds for awhile (weeks months), take him on free runs and let him forget.

Don't be in such a hurry to have such a young dog working birds correctly and never pull flight feathers on a bird....they should all fly off even if it costs you money.

birddog1968 wrote:He;s not a certified bird eater yet.....take him off birds for awhile (weeks months), take him on free runs and let him forget.

Don't be in such a hurry to have such a young dog working birds correctly and never pull flight feathers on a bird....they should all fly off even if it costs you money.

Right on. In 4 or 5 months he may be ready o start working, till then let him run and chase as long as you don't plant birds.

Ezzy

Don't run him where any birds other than "bleep" birds might be. Let him chase them all he wants. From what you quoted from Hickox I would think that's what he was saying. I can't imagine he'd be alright with a puppy catching birds. When you get ready to use birds again, don't pull flight feather's. You want the pigeon to escape. That baby he caught on the ground, well things don't always go as planned. But then putting another down with flight feathers pulled, you unintentionally set him up to fail and he did. A danger with having a pup on birds that young is, your probably going to turn the devil out, you did.

Spend some time either finding remote traps or learning how the dizzy pigeons and toss them down. Those, if dizzied properly and thrown into cover will give you time to get him out and they will be up and walking around, he probably won't catch them. Don't put them to sleep and hide them, he'll snag them.

Thanks for the replies, Launcher will be sent out from Illinois next month. I am not trying to make a bird dog at 14 week or months for that matter, I have always been patient and let my dogs figure out birds on their own, but I have never had any that caught a bird either. Just didn't know if I had programed in some long lasting damage. Took him out on a run this afternoon and he pointed a couple birds in the reeds, huge releif.

I should have clarified that "never work him off check cord " comment. When happy timing the pup, in a large field with no birds, never have him on a cc but also, try never to give him a command. Make it casual. If you want to teach him to work to the whistle, give two blasts, change direction and wave him that way. Even if he doesn't change immediately, he will as soon as he notices you have.

When working birds, always have him on a cc. At his age, about a 1/8" one is great.

You know, I do a lot of natural development with these pups, but I also do a lot of guidance with no pressure. Such is the case with a young pup, a light cc, and traps. Same with the retrieving. Natural development and gently guidance and you'll build a great dog.

He will be fine, they have lots of point in them. Launchers with pigeons (pigeons) won't land so they won't be caught. Make sure he doesn't get too close to the launchers, don't wait for a point, just launch if he gets to close or make sure he is on a chord. His brother is holding steady to flush on pigeons in a launcher and his other brother is pointing ruffies and woodcock for short periods already and he has a crappy trainer lol. They don't need any birds in their mouth, they are plenty birdy.

Right or wrong we stopped playing with pen birds and right now are just doing short hunts, he's ready to find his own birds and I'll start trying to shoot some once we are finished gun conditioning. Then we will start working on a little manners with the launchers after the spring woodcock migration.

I am sure Solon would love to hear from you, he was away at a trial until recently.

Garrison wrote:

4dabirds wrote:http://www.georgehickox.com/about_georg ... icles.html read the published articles there is a lot of good info in them,

Thanks for the recommendation, I have read them all. His articles are why I had him off lead, he has recommended it in a couple of articles that I have read in regards to a pup of this age.

Example

"Also remember that these are not sessions for teaching the pup to come or hunt close. The pup should be allowed to run and chase to its heart’s content-without being hacked on. (Believe me, both you and the dog will have more fun)"

I wish he had a certified bird eater article.

If I am not mistaken I think the context of this example is during a quail walk. He is saying to let the dog explore a field and find planted birds. This would rely on having good flying quail that the dog can not catch. During the introduction to the gun it relies on the dog being completely distracted so the gun is only a subliminal message in the dogs mind. The best distraction is right before the dog catches the bird. This will create an association that guns equal birds in the dogs mind. Once you have done intro to birds and gun and a few quail walks you never let the dog handle a bird until it is steady to wing and shot. The several birds the dog catches in the beginning will not have any negative consequences down the road. After all when you are training the dog to retrieve the dog is expected to handle the birds if the dog learns early that this is a good thing it will not have a problem with it later on. The thing you should be trying to avoid once you get past the introduction is letting the dog chase.

The thing you should be trying to avoid once you get past the introduction is letting the dog chase.

where would this fit in? has george changed his mind?

http://www.gundogsonline.com/video/hunt ... g-dogs.htm

[quote="Winchey"]He will be fine, they have lots of point in them. Launchers with pigeons (pigeons) won't land so they won't be caught. Make sure he doesn't get too close to the launchers, don't wait for a point, just launch if he gets to close or make sure he is on a chord. His brother is holding steady to flush on pigeons in a launcher and his other brother is pointing ruffies and woodcock for short periods already and he has a crappy trainer lol. They don't need any birds in their mouth, they are plenty birdy.

Right or wrong we stopped playing with pen birds and right now are just doing short hunts, he's ready to find his own birds and I'll start trying to shoot some once we are finished gun conditioning. Then we will start working on a little manners with the launchers after the spring woodcock migration.

I am sure Solon would love to hear from you, he was away at a trial until recently.

I emailed him today, he told me your dog was coming along nicely. Waylon just turned on the hunt as well, last week he was stumbling across scent and birds now he is stretching it out and looking? Couldn't get out today, he got his second bee sting in the face and the benadryl wasn't turning off the swelling, then hives. A steroid injection cleared him up?

brad27 wrote:

The thing you should be trying to avoid once you get past the introduction is letting the dog chase.

where would this fit in? has george changed his mind?

http://www.gundogsonline.com/video/hunt ... g-dogs.htm

In the video he mentions that if the dog has had the intro to the gun you can shoot a bird for the dog, this is setting the dog up to see a picture of you the trainer in front. Once he sets up that picture he changes to restrained chase where he follows the dog holding the check cord As the dog is chasing he slows the dog to a stop no correction. This drill is similar to the quail walk After this he starts training whoa formally there is no more chasing. He still does fly away drills but the dog is on a barrel.

Ok, so you don't stop chasing outright after bird intro.

brad27 wrote:Ok, so you don't stop chasing outright after bird intro.

If a dog is birdie, chasing serves absolutely no purpose and is just one more fault to correct later. Many people won't let a young dog retrieve a bird, but they let them chase until their hearts are content. Go figure.

brad27 wrote:Ok, so you don't stop chasing outright after bird intro.

as I see it these drills are part of the intro to set a picture in the dogs mind once you have done a few you stop allowing to chase . From there he uses the barrel to teach whoa and then when the dog knows whoa he does the fly away with the barrel so the dog connects the two lessons.

I am hoping you get mixed up with that Brad and Ultra fella. Both sides of your dog go back heavily to Long Gone Sam and some class American Field AA Setters. I want to see how our coverdogs stack against those short tails out there.

I went with Brad last weekend to check out the training area at the hunt club, nice place and nice guy. With my training skills or maybe lack there of don't know if I will be the best ambassador of the breed out here on the west coast, but we will give it heck.

I don't have a dog right now but will BS while you let him run. Kinda depressing without my dog around I have nothing to do but work.