I Don't Even Know Where To Start
Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 2:59 am
The third dog in my string right now is a 2 1/2 year old (GSP).
I sent to a pro-trainer this past summer from May to August to finish up breaking him.
Here is where he was at when I dropped him off in May: Hard charging dog who works at about 60-80 out front and 60-80 to each side. Head up with a ton of point, steady to the flush but through the flush (i.e. going with the bird). He was conditioned to the collar on the flank and all whoa work had been done on the flank at age 1 1/2 to age 2.
While at the trainer, here is what I was told the program was: Transition the collar to the neck and condition him to "whoa" with collar on neck. Bird work was stop to flush using launchers on check cord, progressing to stop to flush off lead using launchers, to thrown birds off lead. Mixed in with the training was to be a few killed birds, including a couple scenarios where dog was to point birds and have them killed for him.
Here are a couple of problems that I know occurred while training: All of the launcher work was done in the same area (I equate this to a parlor trick as dogs get sticky when bird work is done in the same area all the time...sure they stand still if they anticipate the activity). When they went to thrown birds off lead, at least one bird was thrown right in front of the dog and caught. Lastly, during one point and kill drill, the dog nearly caught the bird when he was allowed to creep right up to it (penned chukars), and lastly during a point and kill drill, the dog caught a penned chukar that didn't fly but ran.
I was aware of all the multiple trapped birds and instructed that I wanted the dog broke. The dog was kept another two weeks and I was told the dog was ready. I was told that the dog was conditioned to the collar and if he goes with a bird to use continuous to stop him.
Upon getting possession of the dog back, I started running him in the woods on wild birds. The dog was hit or miss. The first bird contact was a woodcock that was pointed and knocked when the dog tried to get too close. I went to the collar and couldn't stop the dog. I got him and stood him back up at whoa at the point of infraction. The next two birds where bumped grouse with the same chase and same end result...no response to the collar and eventually having to get the dog, bring him back and stand him at the point of infraction. The last bird was a pointed woodcock and the dog was steady through the flush and firing of the blank gun.
The next time into the woods the dog had an uproductive and a bumped grouse. He went with the grouse, did not respond to the collar but stopped on his own after 20 yards.
I went back to yard work to make sure the dog clearly understands "whoa" and collar conditioning. I then went to launchers in the yard (hidden) with the dog on check-cord and worked up to dragging check cord. All times (twice during a 5 day period) the dog took did well.
Enter the first week of the grouse hunting season.
During the first day, his first bird contact was a bumped woodcock that he chased with no response to the collar. I picked him up and stood him at the point of infraction. The second bird was a pointed woodcock and I made sure to come wide to reduce any temptation to break. The minute he saw me...he took out the bird and chased. No response to the collar. I again picked him up and stood him at the point of infraction. The third bird was a pointed woodcock, he broke at the flush and stopped with the collar. The fourth bird was again a woodcock, pointed and dog was steady to the flush and I stopped the chase with the collar.
During the second time out, he pointed a grouse and bumped it when relocating. He didn't see it flush but he heard it. Then the creeping started. The rest of the run, he would point and when I got there, he would start creeping. At least four unproductives to finish the run, all of them with him creeping.
The third day out was a day that will be remembered for a long time. The result yet to be determined...either a good story or the day that I lost a good prodigy. He was running and I ran into a friend with his English Pointed. We decided to run together (probably a mistake given his current training progress, but they have to learn at some point). They worked really good together and the EP established point. My dog backed the point from about 20 yards and stood still as can be. The EP broke and knocked the birds, my dog stood still and a grouse flew right to him. He broke and caught it.
I pulled him from the woods the past week and decided to go back to the beginning. The first night he went on the barrel with a helper dancing a pigeon from 10-15 yards away. He didn't move his feet but his head and body went wherever the bird went. We did no more than four "flushes" and when the bird handler walked away the dog tucked his head low (he does this when he wants to avoid doing something) and after several mild attempts, I was able to get the head back up, posture him and we were done.
The next day was a run in the Township woods (no birds) and he handled well.
Last night we went back to the barrel and when the bird flusher simulated the "flush" (same distance...same everything), the dog wanted to break. Every time he tried to break off the barrel, set him back up, and every time I did, he buried his head and looked away from the bird. The third time, I called defeat and recognized we were not making progress, so we ended the exercise, went to the Township woods and let him have fun. He had an unproductive, I kept my mouth shut, and while swinging wide in front of him after about 30 seconds, he started hunting again...no bird.
So...here I am, not being able to sleep since 1:00 a.m. realizing that I have a problem of sorts that I cannot quite figure out.
The dog is not soft by any means, but he is showing signs in training that he doesn't want to play the game. The "head tuck" on the barrel, the stickiness while doing simple whoa walks in the yard, and the stickiness at other training locations, especially when dragging a cord (thus rendering any launcher work something I don't want to do).
Being this is only my 4th dog with 10 years of experience, I am now filled with self-doubt about what to do.
I can continue from the beginning on the barrel, or work launchers but there is the chance that pressure will bust a pipe and I will be left with an unpleasant dog no matter how soft I do the exercises, OR, I am left with running him in the woods and risk another caught young grouse, or employ the collar as told to do and end up with a dog that says "to heck with this." If I knew he couldn't catch a wild bird, I would just go to the woods hunting, keep my mouth shut, and go back to not killing anything not handled properly.
Don't get me wrong, the dog knows better. I hunt 40 days a year and passed up many a shot last year if the bird was bumped and not pointed. And, the dog will point all day long until I get to him...that is when the fun begins.
I think the problem is clearly caught birds, the creeping is a symptom of this, as well as not being broke steady through the flush.
But as I said, I now have my doubts about my ability, or even worse, what really went on all summer long. Hindsight is 20/20 and it was my call to turn the keys over to someone else...nothing I could do about that. In this economy, you have to work to pay the bills, but it was only the second time I consulted someone on a paying basis, as I thought my program worked pretty good for me...until my time to train evaporated.
Pride is a flower in the Devil's garden, therefore, I am asking for some advice, thoughts, etc...I don't want to ruin this dog. He has some of the best blood in him and if anything, that is going to be what saves us....but I am just lost on this one.
Dennis
I sent to a pro-trainer this past summer from May to August to finish up breaking him.
Here is where he was at when I dropped him off in May: Hard charging dog who works at about 60-80 out front and 60-80 to each side. Head up with a ton of point, steady to the flush but through the flush (i.e. going with the bird). He was conditioned to the collar on the flank and all whoa work had been done on the flank at age 1 1/2 to age 2.
While at the trainer, here is what I was told the program was: Transition the collar to the neck and condition him to "whoa" with collar on neck. Bird work was stop to flush using launchers on check cord, progressing to stop to flush off lead using launchers, to thrown birds off lead. Mixed in with the training was to be a few killed birds, including a couple scenarios where dog was to point birds and have them killed for him.
Here are a couple of problems that I know occurred while training: All of the launcher work was done in the same area (I equate this to a parlor trick as dogs get sticky when bird work is done in the same area all the time...sure they stand still if they anticipate the activity). When they went to thrown birds off lead, at least one bird was thrown right in front of the dog and caught. Lastly, during one point and kill drill, the dog nearly caught the bird when he was allowed to creep right up to it (penned chukars), and lastly during a point and kill drill, the dog caught a penned chukar that didn't fly but ran.
I was aware of all the multiple trapped birds and instructed that I wanted the dog broke. The dog was kept another two weeks and I was told the dog was ready. I was told that the dog was conditioned to the collar and if he goes with a bird to use continuous to stop him.
Upon getting possession of the dog back, I started running him in the woods on wild birds. The dog was hit or miss. The first bird contact was a woodcock that was pointed and knocked when the dog tried to get too close. I went to the collar and couldn't stop the dog. I got him and stood him back up at whoa at the point of infraction. The next two birds where bumped grouse with the same chase and same end result...no response to the collar and eventually having to get the dog, bring him back and stand him at the point of infraction. The last bird was a pointed woodcock and the dog was steady through the flush and firing of the blank gun.
The next time into the woods the dog had an uproductive and a bumped grouse. He went with the grouse, did not respond to the collar but stopped on his own after 20 yards.
I went back to yard work to make sure the dog clearly understands "whoa" and collar conditioning. I then went to launchers in the yard (hidden) with the dog on check-cord and worked up to dragging check cord. All times (twice during a 5 day period) the dog took did well.
Enter the first week of the grouse hunting season.
During the first day, his first bird contact was a bumped woodcock that he chased with no response to the collar. I picked him up and stood him at the point of infraction. The second bird was a pointed woodcock and I made sure to come wide to reduce any temptation to break. The minute he saw me...he took out the bird and chased. No response to the collar. I again picked him up and stood him at the point of infraction. The third bird was a pointed woodcock, he broke at the flush and stopped with the collar. The fourth bird was again a woodcock, pointed and dog was steady to the flush and I stopped the chase with the collar.
During the second time out, he pointed a grouse and bumped it when relocating. He didn't see it flush but he heard it. Then the creeping started. The rest of the run, he would point and when I got there, he would start creeping. At least four unproductives to finish the run, all of them with him creeping.
The third day out was a day that will be remembered for a long time. The result yet to be determined...either a good story or the day that I lost a good prodigy. He was running and I ran into a friend with his English Pointed. We decided to run together (probably a mistake given his current training progress, but they have to learn at some point). They worked really good together and the EP established point. My dog backed the point from about 20 yards and stood still as can be. The EP broke and knocked the birds, my dog stood still and a grouse flew right to him. He broke and caught it.
I pulled him from the woods the past week and decided to go back to the beginning. The first night he went on the barrel with a helper dancing a pigeon from 10-15 yards away. He didn't move his feet but his head and body went wherever the bird went. We did no more than four "flushes" and when the bird handler walked away the dog tucked his head low (he does this when he wants to avoid doing something) and after several mild attempts, I was able to get the head back up, posture him and we were done.
The next day was a run in the Township woods (no birds) and he handled well.
Last night we went back to the barrel and when the bird flusher simulated the "flush" (same distance...same everything), the dog wanted to break. Every time he tried to break off the barrel, set him back up, and every time I did, he buried his head and looked away from the bird. The third time, I called defeat and recognized we were not making progress, so we ended the exercise, went to the Township woods and let him have fun. He had an unproductive, I kept my mouth shut, and while swinging wide in front of him after about 30 seconds, he started hunting again...no bird.
So...here I am, not being able to sleep since 1:00 a.m. realizing that I have a problem of sorts that I cannot quite figure out.
The dog is not soft by any means, but he is showing signs in training that he doesn't want to play the game. The "head tuck" on the barrel, the stickiness while doing simple whoa walks in the yard, and the stickiness at other training locations, especially when dragging a cord (thus rendering any launcher work something I don't want to do).
Being this is only my 4th dog with 10 years of experience, I am now filled with self-doubt about what to do.
I can continue from the beginning on the barrel, or work launchers but there is the chance that pressure will bust a pipe and I will be left with an unpleasant dog no matter how soft I do the exercises, OR, I am left with running him in the woods and risk another caught young grouse, or employ the collar as told to do and end up with a dog that says "to heck with this." If I knew he couldn't catch a wild bird, I would just go to the woods hunting, keep my mouth shut, and go back to not killing anything not handled properly.
Don't get me wrong, the dog knows better. I hunt 40 days a year and passed up many a shot last year if the bird was bumped and not pointed. And, the dog will point all day long until I get to him...that is when the fun begins.
I think the problem is clearly caught birds, the creeping is a symptom of this, as well as not being broke steady through the flush.
But as I said, I now have my doubts about my ability, or even worse, what really went on all summer long. Hindsight is 20/20 and it was my call to turn the keys over to someone else...nothing I could do about that. In this economy, you have to work to pay the bills, but it was only the second time I consulted someone on a paying basis, as I thought my program worked pretty good for me...until my time to train evaporated.
Pride is a flower in the Devil's garden, therefore, I am asking for some advice, thoughts, etc...I don't want to ruin this dog. He has some of the best blood in him and if anything, that is going to be what saves us....but I am just lost on this one.
Dennis