7 Month GSP. Training Questions.

traehow · Post by **traehow** » Sat Sep 24, 2011 10:03 am

I have a 7 month old GSP male. He is a great dog and my family has grown to love him. I was fortunate enough to adopt him at 5 1/2 months from a family who because of economical conditions couldn't keep him. Luke is obedience trained and listens very well. He responds to Sit, Stay, Shake, High Five, Roll Over, Speak, Down, Up, Go to bed, Whoa, Give. Since I have got him I have been working with him twice a day on short training sessions of retrieving. I live a o 450 acre farm with ponds and fields and he enjoys retrieving out of both. He will sit or stand at my left hand side as I throw a training dummy out and will not retrieve until I tap the back of his head and say "OK". The past two weekends I have been taking him out walking in the fields where I will tell him "WHOA", thrown a dummy in the air and shoot in the air. He isnt gun shy and will watch the dummy fall and retrieve on command.

I am now wanting to start him on game bird training and was wanting advice on the proper steps in getting him use to birds. (Feather traing, Dead birds, Live Birds,ect.) I have purchase my propigation permit and I am in the process of building pens to hold quail and pheasant.

I really want to train this dog myself and would rather not send him to a kennel for bird training. I know this is kindof a wide open request but all traing suggestions are welcome. Thanks.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:22 am

Sounds like to me this dog has had an awful lot of obedience training for a 7 mo old pup.If you have wild birds available I would just put him in the field with them & let him be a pup for awhile untill next spring.
Don't fool with feathers,scents,or even dead birds,if you don't have wild birds to work with get some pigeons,strong flying quail or chukars & learn how to use them to acomplish what wild birds would teach your dog.
TOO MUCH OBEDIENCE especialy on a young dog can make them robots instead of BIRD DOGS!!JMO I know some will disagree but this is not my way of working with a dog that young.
Good Luck!! Have fun & make it fun for the dog don't stifle his develpment.

GUNDOGS · Post by **GUNDOGS** » Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:23 pm

i think your dog sounds like a great dog that has had alot of time spent with him and dont think he will become a robot at all..an obedient dog is a dog that is enjoyed by all and you can never overdue it unless you use negative reinforcement and dont provide a proper balance which by your explaination i think you provide it all just fine, if you are using positive reinforcements with this dog and providing a balance in obedience ,free time to play, socializing and love then you got it 100% right in my opinion..its great to hear about young dogs that know commands and arent allowed to act like uncontrolled wild animals..i see them way to often even at 7 or 8 months old in shelters, the owners "let them be puppies" far too long and all of a sudden at 6 months wanna teach some basics and the dog is harder to manage then if they would have started immediately..sounds to me you have a well behaved very lucky dog to have received the training you have given him and are looking into continuing

just make sure you give some free time to run and gain confidence in the field, make sure he feels comfortable in the field before worrying about birds and then check into local groups like NAVHDA for some training tips in person because advice over the internet can be helpful but will never take the place of having help in person right there with you and your dog..have fun and i would love to see some pics, videos and updates of your success

...ruth

Post by **Sharon** » Sat Sep 24, 2011 1:26 pm

Sounds like you have done a good job. The dog obviously has found the right home.
Now I think you need some training materials to follow:
http://www.huntsmith.com/http://www.huntsmith.com/

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Sat Sep 24, 2011 1:45 pm

You miss the point of zepplins post Ruth, a dog that is over trained at a young age alot of times doesn't develop the independence and animation that a dog that has been allowed to be a pup for almost a full year will.

Allowing a dog to be a carefree pup is time well spent, will build independence, and a love for the field without being right up under its handlers feet. A dog allowed to be a pup will also make decisions on his own , often good decisions, without constantly lookin at his handler for approval. Too much OB at a young age will often impart unforseen problems in breaking the dog on birds later ie. sitting or laying down when pressure is applied.

I would do just about exactly what VonZ suggested, you've got the dogs whole life ahead of you.....and Kudos to you for giving him a chance and caring enough to educate yourself !

GUNDOGS · Post by **GUNDOGS** » Sat Sep 24, 2011 2:06 pm

birddog1968 wrote:You miss the point of zepplins post Ruth, a dog that is over trained at a young age alot of times doesn't develop the independence and animation that a dog that has been allowed to be a pup for almost a full year will.

Allowing a dog to be a carefree pup is time well spent, will build independence, and a love for the field without being right up under its handlers feet. A dog allowed to be a pup will also make decisions on his own , often good decisions, without constantly lookin at his handler for approval. Too much OB at a young age will often impart unforseen problems in breaking the dog on birds later ie. sitting or laying down when pressure is applied.

I would do just about exactly what VonZ suggested, you've got the dogs whole life ahead of you.....and Kudos to you for giving him a chance and caring enough to educate yourself !

Nope didnt miss the point at all and i still disagree...ruth

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Sat Sep 24, 2011 2:13 pm

I'll stick with the opinion of someone who's sucessfully worked with more than 1 birddog.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Sat Sep 24, 2011 2:29 pm

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Sep 24, 2011 2:39 pm

I think you will find that the difference in opinions is because we are looking for different results. Ruth likes a well mannered dog in the house and around people with the end result of a house dog that will hunt. Those of us who are trying to raise and train the best independent pointing bird dog we possibly can realize that we can never teach as well as mother nature. One pup is not trained better than the other, but rather is being trained to become the dog each of us like. While the well mannered 7 month old pup is a joy and well on it's way to becoming that great pet and house dog that will hunt if given the chance it probably will never become the independent bird finder that the pup that has been allowed to learn where and how to find birds will. And I can always teach the manners that may not be quite up to snuff for the rest of the dogs life.

Different strokes for different folks but if you want the outstanding exceptional bird dog you better give the pup the opportunity to learn and practise it's skills, while if you want the exceptionally well mannered dog around the house and family you would be wise to keep it under control at all times. Take your pick and train accordingly, well mannered subservient type dog or an independent terror in the field who might jump on you or the furniture occasionally but will be the outstanding dog most of want in the field.

Ezzy

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sat Sep 24, 2011 2:59 pm

Sounds like you've done a fine job of developing a youngster who has not yet reached the stubborn buckethead stage. The foundation should ease his growing pains for you.

What will be the primary hunting environment for this dog?

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Sat Sep 24, 2011 3:07 pm

I have nothing to say to Ruth she is who she is as am I.Ezzy I agree with your comment but just because I want an indepedent bird dog that can make decisions with out looking for me to make them,does not mean they can't also be well behaved.My avatar dog Star was really never taught anything other then her name untill she was approaching 2 yrs of age.Star is not a house dog but if I made one out of her Tomorrow she would be aswell behaved as one raised from a puppy.She has NEVER been taught sit nor have any of my dogs,I see no need for it.That pic of her standing at Whoa was taken after 2 or 3 10 to 20 min sessions of Whoa training 3 days in a row,yes I said 3 days & she was close to 2 yrs old.She is very well mannered & behaves beyond some peoples belief,if she has a unmannerly behavior it would be standing on her hind legs with her feet on your waist to be petted,but will stay down if you tell her.Star quickly becomes every ones favorite she is around because of her affection & lady like manners & actions.They simply can not believe as well behaved & calm as she is That she can tear up the ground & become all business when taken to the line for the break away.

I have seen robotic birddogs that are always looking to their owners for directions & if you observe the dog & their owners you will understand why they have become that way.
I AM NOT A CONTROL FREAK!!!

Traehow if you want advice or want to hear my opinion & what I have to say PM me.
No sense in wasting time if you don't want to hear anything I say.

Like I said just have fun & make it fun for your dog!!

Oh I NEVER claimed to be a GENTLEMAN !!!

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Sat Sep 24, 2011 3:41 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Sounds like to me this dog has had an awful lot of obedience training for a 7 mo old pup.If you have wild birds available I would just put him in the field with them & let him be a pup for awhile untill next spring.
Don't fool with feathers,scents,or even dead birds,if you don't have wild birds to work with get some pigeons,strong flying quail or chukars & learn how to use them to acomplish what wild birds would teach your dog.
TOO MUCH OBEDIENCE especialy on a young dog can make them robots instead of BIRD DOGS!!JMO I know some will disagree but this is not my way of working with a dog that young.

That's a good true post.

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:My avatar dog Star was really never taught anything other then her name untill she was approaching 2 yrs of age.

That's very suprising. Why did you wait so long to begin her training?

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:43 pm

Ron I know people have different ideas on training & for different reasons they all can work but with different results.My dogs are pretty much natural bird dogs,you could pretty much just take them hunting & end up with dogs that do naturally what most hunters end up with or expect from their hunting dogs.Star was my first & only F trial dog so far.I had her here at home untill she was 13 months old & just let her be a pup & become independent & confident with everything & saw she had alot of potential.I then put her with a pro trainer as I don't have the ground to really develope her run etc.plus some of these trainers would rather have an untouched dog to start with then some that have been started using different methods then they use as it can cause confusion when just getting them started.
I told him to evaluate her & give me a call which he did about 10 days later saying shes a keeper.I put him in charge & he took it from there.When I brought her home for a couple months break I ask if he wanted me to do anything with her he said no,all I want is her to know her name for now.She was running bigger & bigger finding birds pointing everything he wanted on her own.When I briught her home the second or third time he said you can whoa break her but not around any birds after that he started getting her to handle & then broke her around 30 mos & she is over the hill broke.The style you see in the avatar we didn't want to loose any of that or any of he attitude,she was a wild little pup in the field chased "bleep" birds all througth her derby yr. & looked good doing it.She has a few fans out there,when ever she runs they saddle up.
I've had GSPS for over 35 yrs this county use to be one of if not the top BW Quail counties in the state & I never did much real traing at all then just went hunting.Now gamebirds of any kind are almost non existant
in Ohio so have to use planted birds of some sort to train but I probably still don't do as much as some others.I like to let them develop their natural intstncts as much as possible.Never FF a dog in my life,never had to & don't want a dog looking to me for direction on what to do next.Buy well bred dogs give them a chance to do what they were bred to do & most will surprise you of their natural abilities.Dogs have probably taught me more then I have taught them & though I'm the pack leader we have a mutual respect & love for each other,that goes a long way !!

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Sat Sep 24, 2011 5:04 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:this county use to be one of if not the top BW Quail counties in the state

Illinois used to have some pretty awesome quail hunting as well...from what I've been told. I missed out on the good ol' days.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 1:33 am

Hey Ted, FWIW, I agree with you on your previous posts.

Charlie

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 4:58 am

I am going to have to side with Ruth on this one. My dogs know all that crap around the house and such as well, taught with positive means and they were basically run offs out in the woods when there is game to be found until I taught them some manners in that situation. I have limited experience and have a small sample pool so take it for what it is worth but my almost 2 year old passed his K-9 good neighbour at about 10 months at the end of summer last year and I didn't bother trying to get a handle on him until this spring. That first year I said nothing in the woods and he would be gone the first 15 minutes of every run and for at least that everytime he had contact with game. Like I said, small sample with an aspiring trainer with very limited experience and abilities, but I am not convinced that positive reinforcement training around the house will transfer to the field until you transfer it or cause a dog to act robotic.

GUNDOGS · Post by **GUNDOGS** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:05 am

delete

bossman · Post by **bossman** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 9:00 am

I think both Vonz... and Sharon give good advice. If you can get to a good training seminar...go. Many excellent training videos out there. The Smiths have some, I'm partial to the perfect start/perfect finish. With proper training, you can have an independant dog in the field and a well mannered dog in the house. It does not have to be an either or situation. I want the independance first, manners can always be trained. It's easier to take independance and desire out of a dog than it is to try to put those qualities into a dog. Must be given every opportunity to develop his natural hunting skills as a priority..As always,jmo

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:07 pm

bossman wrote:I think both Vonz... and Sharon give good advice. If you can get to a good training seminar...go. Many excellent training videos out there. The Smiths have some, I'm partial to the perfect start/perfect finish. With proper training, you can have an independant dog in the field and a well mannered dog in the house. It does not have to be an either or situation. I want the independance first, manners can always be trained. It's easier to take independance and desire out of a dog than it is to try to put those qualities into a dog. Must be given every opportunity to develop his natural hunting skills as a priority..As always,jmo

I agree and I would just like to add that the age of the pup being taught so many different things is what was in question and I agree with Vonz on his comments regarding that. Since this is a gun dog forum, we assume that people asking for advise, are looking for advice on developing and training for the best gun dog possible. And to that end, as you stated, independence must come first IMO.

Charlie

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:59 pm

birddogger wrote:
bossman wrote:I think both Vonz... and Sharon give good advice. If you can get to a good training seminar...go. Many excellent training videos out there. The Smiths have some, I'm partial to the perfect start/perfect finish. With proper training, you can have an independant dog in the field and a well mannered dog in the house. It does not have to be an either or situation. I want the independance first, manners can always be trained. It's easier to take independance and desire out of a dog than it is to try to put those qualities into a dog. Must be given every opportunity to develop his natural hunting skills as a priority..As always,jmo
I agree and I would just like to add that the age of the pup being taught so many different things is what was in question and I agree with Vonz on his comments regarding that. Since this is a gun dog forum, we assume that people asking for advise, are looking for advice on developing and training for the best gun dog possible. And to that end, as you stated, independence must come first IMO.

Charlie

Good post Charlie.

I would like to add that the two dogs being discussed are at opposite ends of the spectrum with one having an abundance of obedience training along with some gundog training at 7 months and the other having little to no training at 2 years. I, like most of us will meet somewhere in the middle to suit my/our needs as I/we see fit. I absolutely agree that a severely overtrained dog can loose that spark and independance that I feel is necessary for my demands but maybe not others. So just as vonz stated "to each there own".

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:38 pm

If the dog has good breeding, so long as no excess pressure was applied in the obedience training and "if" the dog is a well bred field dog, All you'll have to do is turn on the light for it. So long as the desire has not been taken out of it it can still be turned back on. It's just a pup, 7mos old. Pressure will show up just like explained above, what you do with what the pup is telling you will make a lot of difference.

I would like to tell a story of Duke. He was in a kennel in LaGrande, Ore till he was 10mos old. He was kenneled with another pup that really cowed him. Some guy near Portland found him and brought him back and put him up as a rescue dog. A friend of mine went and picked him up. Duke was terrified to ride in vehicles, was a bit gun shy, was introverted and was afraid to go into grass over his knees. A year later and Duke will bash thru any cover you put in his was, he'll jump into the car thru a window to keep from being left behind, has no fear of guns anymore and is probably the better of the two mdogs my friend has, certainly an equal. After he was picked up, my friend got him a booster shot just to be careful. didn't work. I had him a few weeks later and he came down with parvo. I kept him at home and he spent a long week on my couch getting shots and IV's and had me thinking I'd wake up every morning and find him dead, he ain't even close! about busting brush, I caame home from town a month or so later and turned them, my dogs and Duke, loose while I took grocery's in the house. First trip back out I saw Duke trying to get to the house. His whole front end was soaked in blood and there was a hole low in his chest and blood was pumping out. The trip to the vet was one of the worst of my life, i was afraid he'd bleed out before we got there. Didn't happen. That fall we took him hunting and he is really really special. absolutely beatiful points and a solid retriever. I had him here about a year and in August he went home for good. Went hunting with him this past weekend and the littler bugger is doing great. I'm sure if you bring your pup along right you'll get a good dog out of it, probably not a Duke but, Duke is special.

His first time around water with his owner.

God I love that little guy!

bossman · Post by **bossman** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:09 pm

Beautiful dog!

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:34 pm

My intent is not really to argue the point here because different people have different methods and different things they want out of their dogs. I have my own way of doing things and like to be careful. I have an example.....I attended a seminar not too long ago and talked to a guy that had a young GSP. This dog was extremely obedient and was never on a lead, never staked out and never put in the box. This young dog would heel perfectly, sit and stay on command while the owner was doing something. He could leave this dog unattended for several minutes at a time with no worries. I have to admit, I was impressed. Now to the reason this guy was attending the seminar. He wanted know what he could do to put some run, style and intensity back into the dog. He said the pup had lost it since all the obedience training. Just an observation.

Don't get me wrong, I start the necessary obedience as soon as I get them. I just try not to over load a young puppy. That's just me.

Charlie

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:44 pm

birddogger wrote:My intent is not really to argue the point here because different people have different methods and different things they want out of their dogs. I have my own way of doing things and like to be careful. I have an example.....I attended a seminar not too long ago and talked to a guy that had a young GSP. This dog was extremely obedient and was never on a lead, never staked out and never put in the box. This young dog would heel perfectly, sit and stay on command while the owner was doing something. He could leave this dog unattended for several minutes at a time with no worries. I have to admit, I was impressed. Now to the reason this guy was attending the seminar. He wanted know what he could do to put some run, style and intensity back into the dog. He said the pup had lost it since all the obedience training. Just an observation.

Don't get me wrong, I start the necessary obedience as soon as I get them. I just try not to over load a young puppy. That's just me.

Charlie

Stick him in a pen of quail and leave him till he kill's all of them. Sometimes to fix a problem you have to create another.

traehow · Post by **traehow** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 9:07 pm

Wow thanks so much for the good advise on both ends. I would like to say that while Luke is trained with all the obedience commands he arrived at our home that way. His previous owners where more looking for a home dog but didn't have a way to release his energy. I have been trying to keep him trained with Whoa, sit, give, and get it. While my kids love the shake and high five. They try to flood him with treats. My intention is to have a gun dog and his bloodlines include both show and field champs on both sides. He is very comfortable in the field and water and is constantly searching for that next bird. I will look into pigeons as I saw a few suggest that. Our that consist of corn fields, alfalfa, and just plain ol hay fields.

I wasn't sure if I should just realease some birds and let him run around and just get used to finding birds and get used to running birds or go ahead with trying to get him to hold point and start shooting live birds in front of him.

I just want him to be a good bird dog and bring out his full potential.

Thanks
Trae

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 10:50 pm

Stick him in a pen of quail and leave him till he kill's all of them. Sometimes to fix a problem you have to create another.
Very true and that's why I try to prevent the first problem to bigin with.

Charlie

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:23 am

I fail to see where the OP has said his dog doesn't like birds and has no desire?

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:02 pm

Winchey wrote:I fail to see where the OP has said his dog doesn't like birds and has no desire?

He hasn't said it because he doesn't know....He hasn't started him on birds yet. Besides, nobody is saying he won't like birds and have strong drive, we were just discussing our thoughts on the best way to develop a puppy into a gun dog. :roll: :roll: :roll:

Charlie

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:20 pm

He's new to bird dogs and we are trying to cheer him up!

4dabirds · Post by **4dabirds** » Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:15 am

Would it not depend on how the dog was obedience trained.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:46 am

Apparently not. The only way to teach a puppy Hi Five and sit is by beating and shocking it and risk ending up with a robot lol. Better off boarding the dog somewhere until it is 3 or risk ruining it.

On another note there are more than a few competent coverdog trialers out here that keep their dogs in close until their bird work is crisp. They say if the dog is bread right it will roll once they let it.

I do spend a lot of time in the woods with my pups keeping my mouth shut and don't really use any commands but I really don't think teaching a few things around the house through PR and shaping is going to diminish style or independence. I guess it could diminish independence but I think it is more the difference between a run-off and a dog that fills the country but goes with you.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Sep 27, 2011 11:33 am

WE must be running short of things to talk about. I think the original poster was given good advice that has been proven over many years.

Ezzy

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Tue Sep 27, 2011 11:47 am

I just want to argue with somebody today.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Sep 27, 2011 1:09 pm

Winchey wrote:I just want to argue with somebody today.

If it doesn't stop raining I may jon you.

Ezzy

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Wed Sep 28, 2011 5:23 am

ezzy333 wrote:
Winchey wrote:I just want to argue with somebody today.
If it doesn't stop raining I may jon you.

Ezzy

You need to be down here in my area Al. It is still beautiful weather here. We had a nice little shower night before last and then the sun came back out the next morning. This is the longest stretch of nice weather we have had in a long time.

Charlie

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:01 am

450 acres and the dog has never been exposed to birds,no mention of drive,range,independence,boldness,cooperation,birdiness.
Has the pup been for uncontrolled walks on the 450 acres?
Too much time on obedience and no time developing the hunt.
Any 7 month old pup who is steady to randomly,hand thrown dummies and shot is risking having drive taken out of them.

Not how I would go about training a potential hunting dog.
Let us know how he progresses.

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