Dog Sits On Whoa

CowboyBirdDogs · Post by **CowboyBirdDogs** » Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:57 am

I made the mistake of teaching my dog sit and stay before whoa. So when I say whoa he stops, sits, and stays. I can easily see how he connected all 3 of these in his head. My fault as a trainer. When he does this I go over and lift his hindquarters up into a standing position while saying whoa. Is this the proper correction?

I'm really intrigued to know how good my dogs would be if they had a trainer who was more experienced and knew what the heck he was doing! :roll: But, I'm 23 and you gotta start somewhere right?

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:07 am

I don't see another way of doing it, but I'm just as experienced as you are so....I would guess repetition of lifting him whenever he sits and repeating whoa and eventually he'll get it. Also maybe try incorporating a hand signal so the dog has a visual as well? Again, I'm 24 and new to training as well so take my advise knowing I don't know sh*t...

Tim

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:15 am

So, now he knows that "whoa" means to stand up from a sitting position?

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:16 am

Electric -

What you are doing will help.

Another thing that will help is a yardwork drill. It is a heel/whoa drill and is described in Paul Long's book, "Training Pointing Dogs" Essentially you loop a checkcord around the dog's neck though the snap and heel the dog about 30 ft and stop. Repeat and repeat and repeat for about 10-15 minutes twice a day if you can manage it.

What you need to do is this: After you stop and just as your dog settles into a sit, you need to step off in a brisk fashion. This will not allow the dog to sit and tend to break the connection between stopping and sitting.

I actually use either a pigging string(wonder lead) or a prong collar for heel/whoa drills. I think the spring actionof the wonder lead/pigging string helps the dog to "get it" quicker. If using the wonder lead, after you stop and the dog starts to rock back into a sit, a quick uplift on the lead will tighten the noose, encouraging the dog to stand back up and get going with you which will instantly loosen the noose.

Have patience.... It will take time to undo.

RayG

PS -

You are not alone. I too often wonder how good my dogs would be if they had a better trainer. However, they are stuck with me and have to make do. You are doing far better than I was at your age.

Redfishkilla · Post by **Redfishkilla** » Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:33 am

I haven't read Paul Long's book referenced above but this is what I would do. I think it's similar to the heel/whoa drill. On a lead, command heel and walk in a big circle in the yard or long lines back and forth. While walking when you stop command whoa, don't let him sit, like you do, pick up his hind quarters if he tries, command whoa. Once he is whoaing without sitting start dropping the lead and walking out in front of him, don't let him sit when you walk out. Eventually, he should heel without pulling on the lead and whoa without sitting. Being at heel when you command whoa allows you to be right there to make the correction should he try and sit. Lastly, I think dogs always need a release command after whoa, I use heel or you can use here. The people I see with bad whoa problems will often let the dog determine when whoa is over. Take it slow and really drive it home over time, move to the front yard and eventually the field holding him to the same standards you established in the yard, make him keep it tight. Good Luck.

crazyboy · Post by **crazyboy** » Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:38 am

Walk over to him and pick his butt up so hes standing and tell him to woah, if he tries to sit pick him up again. Might also help if you do this somewhere aside from where you taught sit.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:42 am

My dogs learn to sit before whoa and I don't have a problem. What has happened to you is your dog is confused. Don't know how you taught whoa but not to hard to fix your delima. Teach your dog that whoa neans stop and stand still. How you gonna do that? Not to hard. Quit going back to it and standing it up. Have the dog on a good 20' check cord and when it sits don't go to it and don't say a word. Lift the hand holding the check cord up maybe eye lever and pull gently but continuely toward you. To move the dog will have to pick it's butt off the ground. Immediately when it does that, drop your hand and give the whoa command one more time. Do not let the dog get under way coming to you! Soon as it's up, release pressure on the check cord by simply droping your hand and give the command again. Do not talk to your dog, do not go to him and put your hands on him, pull him up gently with the check cord and release the pressure on the cord soon as the dog stands up. It will probably take several times, but what you are doing it teaching him to stand still, not sit still.

A

CowboyBirdDogs · Post by **CowboyBirdDogs** » Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:57 am

Thanks for all the advice.

Ray- Funny you mentioned that book because I bought that one the same time I bought Ben O Williams' book. I'm starting that one next.

He doesn't sit on whoa every time. And once I correct him he doesn't sit again. And I don't think he thinks he has to sit on whoa, I think he thinks he can because he's not going anywhere. If that makes sense?

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:59 am

You confused the dog by not teaching whoa properly.
Teach him that whoa means stand, use praise.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:12 am

Use birds. Quit trying to teach a dog something that he can already do. Stop to flush will fix the sitting.

4dabirds · Post by **4dabirds** » Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:23 am

As a rule of thumb a dog will revert back to what he knows best or learned last when he is confused what is happening with your dog is he is confused because he does not know the whoa command well enough . As a default he is offering what he does know because it is a rewardable behavior. You need to stop making sit a rewardable behavior. This will diminish this as a strategy for reward. The teach whoa and make it the rewardable behavior. I like the barrel to board to ground method because it breaks whoa down in steps to keep the dog from being confused. When whoa is made to be the primary command it would be okay to go back to sit.your dog just needs to have a chance to understand whoa in a positive manner correction will just make him apprehensive.

Post by **Sharon** » Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:47 pm

RayGubernat wrote:Electric -

What you are doing will help.

Another thing that will help is a yardwork drill. It is a heel/whoa drill and is described in Paul Long's book, "Training Pointing Dogs" Essentially you loop a checkcord around the dog's neck though the snap and heel the dog about 30 ft and stop. Repeat and repeat and repeat for about 10-15 minutes twice a day if you can manage it.

What you need to do is this: After you stop and just as your dog settles into a sit, you need to step off in a brisk fashion. This will not allow the dog to sit and tend to break the connection between stopping and sitting.

I actually use either a pigging string(wonder lead) or a prong collar for heel/whoa drills. I think the spring actionof the wonder lead/pigging string helps the dog to "get it" quicker. If using the wonder lead, after you stop and the dog starts to rock back into a sit, a quick uplift on the lead will tighten the noose, encouraging the dog to stand back up and get going with you which will instantly loosen the noose.

Have patience.... It will take time to undo.

RayG

PS -

You are not alone. I too often wonder how good my dogs would be if they had a better trainer. However, they are stuck with me and have to make do. You are doing far better than I was at your age.

X2

kensfishing · Post by **kensfishing** » Wed Sep 28, 2011 3:29 pm

Use a shock collar around his flank and very lightly stimulate and I mean lightly. You shouldn't have to walk to him. Of course put the probes on his you know what. It works like a charm.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Wed Sep 28, 2011 3:38 pm

Sharon wrote:
RayGubernat wrote:Electric -

What you are doing will help.

Another thing that will help is a yardwork drill. It is a heel/whoa drill and is described in Paul Long's book, "Training Pointing Dogs" Essentially you loop a checkcord around the dog's neck though the snap and heel the dog about 30 ft and stop. Repeat and repeat and repeat for about 10-15 minutes twice a day if you can manage it.

What you need to do is this: After you stop and just as your dog settles into a sit, you need to step off in a brisk fashion. This will not allow the dog to sit and tend to break the connection between stopping and sitting.

I actually use either a pigging string(wonder lead) or a prong collar for heel/whoa drills. I think the spring actionof the wonder lead/pigging string helps the dog to "get it" quicker. If using the wonder lead, after you stop and the dog starts to rock back into a sit, a quick uplift on the lead will tighten the noose, encouraging the dog to stand back up and get going with you which will instantly loosen the noose.

Have patience.... It will take time to undo.

RayG

PS -

You are not alone. I too often wonder how good my dogs would be if they had a better trainer. However, they are stuck with me and have to make do. You are doing far better than I was at your age.

X2

Another thing when you do ask for the rear end up do not bend over gently nudge the dog up with you foot

As for the e collar if you use the Rick Smith Method of teaching a point of contact generally that will get most dogs back to standing ..But if it doesn't if the dog doesn't move upward do not continue stimulating as random stimulation with out the dog knowing why it is being stimulated is equivalent to yelling English at someone who doesn't speak any English

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Wed Sep 28, 2011 3:44 pm

¿Que dice?

Vman · Post by **Vman** » Wed Sep 28, 2011 3:51 pm

Depending on the temperament of the dog the above methods may help you. But if he is on the stubborn side or really confused I would use a collar around the waist as mentioned. But before you strap an e-collar to the dog be sure he is comfortable with a flat collar first. Put the collar around his waist and let him run around with it. He may flip out and try to get it off or he may just ignore it. But he needs to be used to having something back there before you give stimulation. This may take a day or two or 10 minutes depending on the dog. Once he is cool with the collar around his waist hook your CC to it and let him drag it around. With the CC in hand and him in front, give your WHOA command. If he wants to sit just raise the cord with you about 6 ft behind him while saying whoa during the correction. This may help but not cure your problem, but it does put you in position to use the e-collar if it does not work. It also will help you with the above mentioned methods also. Rather than lifting the dog use the collar as a handle and lift. The presence of the collar on the flank will remind him to stand after a few corrections. When or if you decide to use the collar use it on a low setting as mentioned. Use no more power than needed. If you have a Dogtra collar use the page function first. Works like a charm. If you have a lesser collar be sure it is set on a low level. You just stimulate until he is standing up and then let off. Better safe than sorry here. You can always go up. Praise the heck out of him when he does good. Once he is doing well with the collar then wean away with the flat collar and on too nothing after that. Should not be too hard to fix. But I cannot stress low level enough.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Wed Sep 28, 2011 3:54 pm

ElectricShorthairs wrote:I made the mistake of teaching my dog sit and stay before whoa. So when I say whoa he stops, sits, and stays. I can easily see how he connected all 3 of these in his head. My fault as a trainer. When he does this I go over and lift his hindquarters up into a standing position while saying whoa. Is this the proper correction?

I'm really intrigued to know how good my dogs would be if they had a trainer who was more experienced and knew what the heck he was doing! :roll: But, I'm 23 and you gotta start somewhere right?

Electric, don't beat yourself up. We all make training mistakes and we learn from them. What Ray advised is what I would do and will work, it will just take a little time and patience. It is just one of those things that some of us have warned about and tried to explain that it is easier to prevent a problem than it is to fix it, while some others have scoffed at that just because they have never encountered the problem. Those people are just too closed minded and/or arrogant to heed the advise [not talking about you at all]. Anyway, just follow Ray's advise and you and your dog will be fine. It sounds like you are doing a good job and at least admit that you are learning and don't know it all, unlike a few on here.

With your attitude and willingness to seek advise, you will make a fine trainer and handler IMO.

Good luck,
Charlie

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Wed Sep 28, 2011 3:56 pm

Also, good advise from Vman if you decide to go that way.

Charlie

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Wed Sep 28, 2011 4:19 pm

What Don and Ray said.

If it still is a problem, I teach them to stand. Work the dog on whoa from heel. Whoa him and stop. When he sits, GENTLY step on his inside, back paw, pull ahead and up on the lead, and command "No, Whoa". Dogs have very, very, sensitive toes, so don't step too hard.

Don't work on sit until he will whoa without sitting, then teach sit again. You're teaching him the difference between sit and whoa, just like between down and here.

On the bright side, few dog's that sit on whoa do so on wild birds.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 4:40 am

Unbelievable how many "trainers" run to the e-collar when the slightest issue arises.
TEACH - TEACH!
Teaching a dog to stand and not sit is not rocket science.
How about some treats to get the message across?
Use the leash as a suitcase handle when walking and command whoa,when he attempts to sit prevent him by lifting up.
This is not the time to apply force.The dog is confused not disobeying.

4dabirds · Post by **4dabirds** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:43 am

adogslife wrote:Unbelievable how many "trainers" run to the e-collar when the slightest issue arises.
TEACH - TEACH!
Teaching a dog to stand and not sit is not rocket science.
How about some treats to get the message across?
Use the leash as a suitcase handle when walking and command whoa,when he attempts to sit prevent him by lifting up.
This is not the time to apply force.The dog is confused not disobeying.

amazing but true

kensfishing · Post by **kensfishing** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:05 am

adogslife wrote:Unbelievable how many "trainers" run to the e-collar when the slightest issue arises.
TEACH - TEACH!
Teaching a dog to stand and not sit is not rocket science.
How about some treats to get the message across?
Use the leash as a suitcase handle when walking and command whoa,when he attempts to sit prevent him by lifting up.
This is not the time to apply force.The dog is confused not disobeying.

One he admitted to teaching sit in the first place. Not he's trying to fix the problem from a distance, that's why the collar. He taught sit with hands on and now he needs to teach with hands off.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:16 am

He doesn't need to start from a distance and it is very easy to teach something hands off without a collar.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:25 am

Guys -

Let's keep our eye on the ball here. The goal is to help the OP work through a problem. WHAT I HAVE SEEN SO FAR IS SEVERAL DIFFERENT WAYS OF GETTING IT DONE. That is excellent. Let's not get sidetracked.

There are many different approaches to dog training and many different ways to get from here to there. A lot depends on the individual dog , where they are and where their head is at... and a lot depends on the individual trainer, their experience, abilities, available time and facilities.

It is nice to have options, so keep them coming. I like hearing about how others do things also.

RayG

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:40 am

Conformation and Agility handlers do it with treats and sometimes clickers. The default sit is often a problem when teaching the pause table because it positions the dog in a better posture to watch the handler. I like to teach the table or barrel stack because it brings the dog up to eye level when shaping the posture. Whoa is done on a post with the correct posture added. If the dog has a good stylish natural point, then the whole process is much easier because the dog will whoa itself on birds and the bird itself becomes the cue. Correction is given for breaking at that stage.

steamer · Post by **steamer** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 10:25 am

es im in the same boat first gun dog dont really know what im doing. it sounds like your dog is confused and needs to be taught what whoa means . the navhda green book along with paul longs method have worked well for me . lead him on the table and whoa him dont let him move at all dont let him sit . put your hand between his back legs and hold him up at the same time hold the lead with the collar high on the neck . keep repeating whoa in a calm low drawn out voice. i started with very short lessons . as he begins to relax and understand what whoa means i make the lessons longer . when you lead him off the table heel him around and back on the table . once he relaxes and will whoa with out being held stroke his back and underside of his tail at the same time repeating whoa in a calm low voice. if he moves at all put him back in place. this is how i started mine on whoa then progressed to the ground and to the field. to me this teaches the dog what the command is and he learns what is expected of him when given the command. both paul longs book and the green book are good and have a lot more details than what i posted . both books are well worth the money. i know there are other ways to teach whoa but this made the most sense to me . good luck and keep at it .

CowboyBirdDogs · Post by **CowboyBirdDogs** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 10:37 am

Thank you all for the great advise! I think I'm going to crack open the Paul Long book and use his method since it was referenced many on this thread. He doesn't do it all the time, maybe 50%ish. Good thing is he's very obedient and picks things up quickly so that should help a lot.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 12:54 pm

The best way will be, once you start a method do not diveate from it. When you start looking around to fix something your not sure of, you abandon the program. Stay with the program till you understand it. Ya got questions, ask for answer's that work with the method your using. All the methods will get you to where you want to be, it's just different ways. I hate to say this but even Wolters book will get you there without fixing to many mistakes. I do not recommend that book.

gittrdonebritts · Post by **gittrdonebritts** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 4:18 pm

PM sent

mudhunter · Post by **mudhunter** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:54 pm

adogslife wrote:Unbelievable how many "trainers" run to the e-collar when the slightest issue arises.
TEACH - TEACH!
Teaching a dog to stand and not sit is not rocket science.
How about some treats to get the message across?
Use the leash as a suitcase handle when walking and command whoa,when he attempts to sit prevent him by lifting up.
This is not the time to apply force.The dog is confused not disobeying.

An e-collar is a more useful to tool than you may realize.

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