Hi I just joined this forum so this is my first post here. I have a GSP that is almost a year old. I have working on training him here and there since i got him at 12 weeks and i feel he is a very capable dog but he has a few issues that i need some advice on how to get around.
I have some homer pigeons that i have been training him with and he has a great bird drive and is pointing fairly good. I have introduced him to gunfire which he seems to like now. He is retrieving a bumper fairly well with just a few minor issues still being worked on.
My first problem I am seeking some advice on is getting him to steady to wing. I ended up opening the pigeon loft so they can fly and do there own thing. they land in the yard and the pup has learned to point them very steady and the birds trained him to point. The problem I am having is getting him to hold point while i approach him. He will hold point for several minutes on his own but when try to walk past to flush the birds he breaks point and flushes them when i get close to him. he seems to think that the game is to flush he birds and does not understand that i will drop one if he holds. I think i could solve this by having someone else flush the birds while i hold him steady on a check cord but i am always solo. I am currently working on whoa but he doesn't fully understand yet. any advice?
The second problem I have with him is swimming. When he was just a little guy he fell into our pond and didnt swim because he was trying to clim back up the vertical bank he fell down. I ended up having to jump in and save the little guy from after he started sinking, In the dead of winter. after that he is always very timid around water. I have got him fallow me into some water this summer to retrieve a bumper and he started to get comfortable with that and will swim good when its only a few feed deep. the problem is if a toss the bumper out to deeper water he swims out ok but then when he gets close to the bumper hes goes vertical and starts sinking. I thought he would work it out but he got to the point where only his nose is out of the water so i jumped in and bailed him out again before he took in any water. now he wont go in past his belly. Don't know what to do about this i was hoping he would retrieve ducks for me. I am thinking of getting one of the neoprene vest with added flotation to see if it helps him stay afloat. any suggestions on this topic?
Thanks for reading and sorry for the lengthy post I am not very good at summarizing.
looking for advice for young gsp
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norcalshoot
- Rank: Just A Pup
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- Location: Northwest corner of California
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Redfishkilla
- Rank: Champion
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Re: looking for advice for young gsp
I'll attempt to help. Next dog you get, make sure the first water introduction is fun. I like a heated dog with clean cool water, if you get em hot enough (not hard in Texas) they walk right in a swim in circles first time without any prodding. Take it slow and you might get him to learn to swim and feel comfortable.
Ok to the point, you're dog needs to understand you are going to flush the bird, not him. You said your pup is a year old and if he's been on a fair amount of birds he can take a little correction without hunting his desire. It's time to teach whoa. You can start teaching whoa in the back yard with a leash and over time drive it home with the e-collar, moving to different places and holding him to the same standards, which for me are when I say whoa you don't move even a step until I release you. This might take several weeks or maybe even a few months. Don’t use whoa around birds until he completely understand what you expect when you give him the whoa command. He should require some correction from the e-collar before it’s all over, use distractions other than birds too. Then on birds, when he establishes a point, you can softly command whoa and because he has never been allowed to disobey your command of whoa he will hold still while you flush the bird.
OK, I'm going to keep going cause of boredom. The other way to teach them to hold point, and I do this when pup is real young like between 3 months and 8 months. I don't use whoa around birds until I have taught them this way. Since your pup is a year old and already pointing and holding for at least some time you might can skip this. I put a pigeon in a launcher and launch the bird on first scent, learn to read your dog. The puppy starts pointing because they think these pigeons are very spooky. Pup will start pointing and ANY movement after an established point will make me launch the pigeon. This also can help with style, IMO. Once pup is pointing and holding I walk up IN FRONT OF pup making sure they don't move at all. So they're say a hundred yards away, or fifty, whatever, they go on point, you walk up in front of pup and kick around like you're trying to flush a bird then launch and shoot the pigeon. If pup moves before you launch the bird don’t shoot it. Pup learns that if they point on first scent and hold it long enough for you to walk out in front that you will shoot the bird for them.
I am by no means an expert dog trainer, I simply replied with what has worked for me in the past. It never hurts to find a trainer close to you that can help and try and learn from them. Good luck.
Ok to the point, you're dog needs to understand you are going to flush the bird, not him. You said your pup is a year old and if he's been on a fair amount of birds he can take a little correction without hunting his desire. It's time to teach whoa. You can start teaching whoa in the back yard with a leash and over time drive it home with the e-collar, moving to different places and holding him to the same standards, which for me are when I say whoa you don't move even a step until I release you. This might take several weeks or maybe even a few months. Don’t use whoa around birds until he completely understand what you expect when you give him the whoa command. He should require some correction from the e-collar before it’s all over, use distractions other than birds too. Then on birds, when he establishes a point, you can softly command whoa and because he has never been allowed to disobey your command of whoa he will hold still while you flush the bird.
OK, I'm going to keep going cause of boredom. The other way to teach them to hold point, and I do this when pup is real young like between 3 months and 8 months. I don't use whoa around birds until I have taught them this way. Since your pup is a year old and already pointing and holding for at least some time you might can skip this. I put a pigeon in a launcher and launch the bird on first scent, learn to read your dog. The puppy starts pointing because they think these pigeons are very spooky. Pup will start pointing and ANY movement after an established point will make me launch the pigeon. This also can help with style, IMO. Once pup is pointing and holding I walk up IN FRONT OF pup making sure they don't move at all. So they're say a hundred yards away, or fifty, whatever, they go on point, you walk up in front of pup and kick around like you're trying to flush a bird then launch and shoot the pigeon. If pup moves before you launch the bird don’t shoot it. Pup learns that if they point on first scent and hold it long enough for you to walk out in front that you will shoot the bird for them.
I am by no means an expert dog trainer, I simply replied with what has worked for me in the past. It never hurts to find a trainer close to you that can help and try and learn from them. Good luck.
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norcalshoot
- Rank: Just A Pup
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:06 pm
- Location: Northwest corner of California
Re: looking for advice for young gsp
Ok so since i posted this topic I have been working with my dog quite a bit. We are working on Whoa on leash and he knows what it means. I am in the works of buying a second hand dogtra 300m for $50 so I can take the training off leash eventually. And thanks to Sharon on this forum I now have a remote launcher!
Now for the pup the problems do not seem to be getting better. I shot a few birds for him while he was on point but I I think that he thinks he caught them. He grabbed both of them while flipping around on the ground. After shooting the birds he no longer points at all, not even a flash point. It is quail season in CA now and between the last two weekend I have had my pup on somewhere around 6 or 7 coveys of quail. He blew right threw all of them with the exception of a little flash point on the first covey of the season. I have not shot any quail.
Yesterday I two pigeons and used them in the launcher today. I did not get a point out of either of them either. The second bird he caught sent of nearly 100 yards away and raced strait to it. I was in disbelieve that he actually was onto the bird at first so i didnt launch the bird until he was 10 feet from it when i realized he was going for it.
I don't know what to do next. Birds are hard for me to obtain right now and the wild quail are an hour drive and then there is no guarantee we will find any. Do i just keep letting him bump and flush the wild quail and pigeons and hope he will start pointing again or is there a better faster approach to this? I have read on here somewhere to steady him with a check cord and flush,shoot and retrieve the bird myself then bring it back to him so he can really understand that the gunner gets him the bird?? Is that a good idea for this situation. Thanks in advance for the tips
Now for the pup the problems do not seem to be getting better. I shot a few birds for him while he was on point but I I think that he thinks he caught them. He grabbed both of them while flipping around on the ground. After shooting the birds he no longer points at all, not even a flash point. It is quail season in CA now and between the last two weekend I have had my pup on somewhere around 6 or 7 coveys of quail. He blew right threw all of them with the exception of a little flash point on the first covey of the season. I have not shot any quail.
Yesterday I two pigeons and used them in the launcher today. I did not get a point out of either of them either. The second bird he caught sent of nearly 100 yards away and raced strait to it. I was in disbelieve that he actually was onto the bird at first so i didnt launch the bird until he was 10 feet from it when i realized he was going for it.
I don't know what to do next. Birds are hard for me to obtain right now and the wild quail are an hour drive and then there is no guarantee we will find any. Do i just keep letting him bump and flush the wild quail and pigeons and hope he will start pointing again or is there a better faster approach to this? I have read on here somewhere to steady him with a check cord and flush,shoot and retrieve the bird myself then bring it back to him so he can really understand that the gunner gets him the bird?? Is that a good idea for this situation. Thanks in advance for the tips
Re: looking for advice for young gsp
In your first post you said something like he holds point till you go past him. If your walking past him, you are pulling him with you. Learn to come in from the side and then straight at hius nose. Somewhere between you and the end of his nose should be the bird. The higher his head the farther out is the birds. The lower his head the closer the birds. If he starts in while your going in you stop. Do not let him race you to the birds.
You said you have a remote lancher. Use that thing to your advantage. Quir killing birds aqnd don't6 let him so much as bling and pop the bird. First it sounds like your going to have to get him pointing again. With a bird in the launcher and you do know exactly where it is and you do know what the breeze is doing, bring him in cross wind about ten yds or so off the bird. You know what the wind is doing so you know about where he'll hit scent. As soon as he hit's scent and before he can point or charge in, pop the bird and keep your mouth shut. Your dog believes it's between him and the bird; it is between him and you! If the dog comes in on the up wind side, he won't smell the bird. But if he gets with ten yds or less pop the bird where he can see it. He meeds to learn it's him thats moving the bird. When he makes a point before you get the bird out, do not pop the bird. Walk around to the front and give all your attention to the dog. Look for any movement in him. He casts a side ways glance at you, pop the bird, he collect's himself getting ready, pop the bird, he blinks an eye, pop the bird. Do not allow him to do even close to what a wild bird might let him do. With the remote you have the upper hand on wild birds. They do not co-operate with you. They do not let you know exactly where they will be when you start out. They aren't intrested in teaching your dog a thing, they only want to escape.
Be sure you never allow your dog one more step to see if he'll stop. He stops right now or the bird goes. Do not let him even glance sideways with his eyes, he does and the bird goes. He sets down a foot, the bird goes. He needs to learn that it is his movement that is causing the bird to go. Don't shoot anymore birds until you can get all the way around him and within easy shot of the flushing bird. The dog must be perfect or no bird.
You said you have a remote lancher. Use that thing to your advantage. Quir killing birds aqnd don't6 let him so much as bling and pop the bird. First it sounds like your going to have to get him pointing again. With a bird in the launcher and you do know exactly where it is and you do know what the breeze is doing, bring him in cross wind about ten yds or so off the bird. You know what the wind is doing so you know about where he'll hit scent. As soon as he hit's scent and before he can point or charge in, pop the bird and keep your mouth shut. Your dog believes it's between him and the bird; it is between him and you! If the dog comes in on the up wind side, he won't smell the bird. But if he gets with ten yds or less pop the bird where he can see it. He meeds to learn it's him thats moving the bird. When he makes a point before you get the bird out, do not pop the bird. Walk around to the front and give all your attention to the dog. Look for any movement in him. He casts a side ways glance at you, pop the bird, he collect's himself getting ready, pop the bird, he blinks an eye, pop the bird. Do not allow him to do even close to what a wild bird might let him do. With the remote you have the upper hand on wild birds. They do not co-operate with you. They do not let you know exactly where they will be when you start out. They aren't intrested in teaching your dog a thing, they only want to escape.
Be sure you never allow your dog one more step to see if he'll stop. He stops right now or the bird goes. Do not let him even glance sideways with his eyes, he does and the bird goes. He sets down a foot, the bird goes. He needs to learn that it is his movement that is causing the bird to go. Don't shoot anymore birds until you can get all the way around him and within easy shot of the flushing bird. The dog must be perfect or no bird.
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!
Re: looking for advice for young gsp
norcalshoot wrote:Hi I just joined this forum so this is my first post here. I have a GSP that is almost a year old. I have working on training him here and there since i got him at 12 weeks and i feel he is a very capable dog but he has a few issues that i need some advice on how to get around.
I have some homer pigeons that i have been training him with and he has a great bird drive and is pointing fairly good. I have introduced him to gunfire which he seems to like now. He is retrieving a bumper fairly well with just a few minor issues still being worked on.
My first problem I am seeking some advice on is getting him to steady to wing. I ended up opening the pigeon loft so they can fly and do there own thing. they land in the yard and the pup has learned to point them very steady and the birds trained him to point. The problem I am having is getting him to hold point while i approach him. He will hold point for several minutes on his own but when try to walk past to flush the birds he breaks point and flushes them when i get close to him. he seems to think that the game is to flush he birds and does not understand that i will drop one if he holds. I think i could solve this by having someone else flush the birds while i hold him steady on a check cord but i am always solo. I am currently working on whoa but he doesn't fully understand yet. any advice?
The second problem I have with him is swimming. When he was just a little guy he fell into our pond and didn't swim because he was trying to climb back up the vertical bank he fell down. I ended up having to jump in and save the little guy from after he started sinking, In the dead of winter. after that he is always very timid around water. I have got him fallow me into some water this summer to retrieve a bumper and he started to get comfortable with that and will swim good when its only a few feed deep. the problem is if a toss the bumper out to deeper water he swims out ok but then when he gets close to the bumper hes goes vertical and starts sinking. I thought he would work it out but he got to the point where only his nose is out of the water so i jumped in and bailed him out again before he took in any water. now he wont go in past his belly. Don't know what to do about this i was hoping he would retrieve ducks for me. I am thinking of getting one of the neoprene vest with added flotation to see if it helps him stay afloat. any suggestions on this topic?
Thanks for reading and sorry for the lengthy post I am not very good at summarizing.
That's how i swim.
I think a vest would be a good idea. Give him a couple cheesies and throw the rest in the water. He may go for it.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett
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norcalshoot
- Rank: Just A Pup
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:06 pm
- Location: Northwest corner of California
Re: looking for advice for young gsp
So I should let him learn on his own by flushing the birds after first sent till he points again. Is steadying him on a CC and having a partner shoot birds and bringing them back to him is not advised?
Should I stop letting him hunt wild quail until he has it down with pointing pigeons in the launcher? I know some say wild birds are the best teacher for a young dog but is that also not advised for my situation? I have been planning on getting him in a duck blind really soon for some waterfowl retrieves but now I am wondering if that will only make the point problem worst. I worry that he may think the shot bird are just landing and he is actually catching them as he did with the pigeons i shot.
we have made some progress on his swimming issues mentioned in the first post. He took a full speed plunge after some ducks on the lagoon. After that I got him to make 1 water retrieve with a bumper so I think he may catch on.
Should I stop letting him hunt wild quail until he has it down with pointing pigeons in the launcher? I know some say wild birds are the best teacher for a young dog but is that also not advised for my situation? I have been planning on getting him in a duck blind really soon for some waterfowl retrieves but now I am wondering if that will only make the point problem worst. I worry that he may think the shot bird are just landing and he is actually catching them as he did with the pigeons i shot.
we have made some progress on his swimming issues mentioned in the first post. He took a full speed plunge after some ducks on the lagoon. After that I got him to make 1 water retrieve with a bumper so I think he may catch on.
Re: looking for advice for young gsp
Since it is hunting season put him on as many wild birds as you possibly can. Let him hunt, let him bump, let him point, hold, whatever he is going to do and ONLY shoot the birds he holds well enough that you can get next to him. BUT don't whoa, here, "good boy" him, stay quiet. PLEASE do not shock the dog on birds no matter what. The wild birds will teach him 10x more than you ever can on pen birds of any kind. Hunt him as much as you can this year. Once season is over begin breaking him to whatever level you want. I have never been a fan of breaking dogs on wild birds as I personally want a controlled situation. Whoa, then dropping pigeons with a helper and dog on a checkcord, then planted, helper flushing, then planted you flushing, etc. until the dog is broke. Be cautious with a collar as you can quickly get the dog blinking, QUICKLY, and it's not a problem that's fun to fix, IF YOU CAN. I know some have enough wild birds to break dogs on them, but we sure don't these days. But, wild birds will help him to somewhat break himself. He won't catch them and at some point he'll figure out that if she points and holds he gets to retrieve, if he busts he gets no bird in his mouth.
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norcalshoot
- Rank: Just A Pup
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:06 pm
- Location: Northwest corner of California
Re: looking for advice for young gsp
Does anyone have any thought on if taking my pup duck hunting would do any harm? I would like to take hiim out but if there is any chance it would hurt his point i wouldnt want to.risk it.