chasiing wild flushed birds

Aksetter · Post by **Aksetter** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:52 pm

Long time reader, first time poster!

I have a 1.5 year old setter (dual type). He has good genetics (imo) and training. He is whoa, here, heel, and been FF'd. He knows his commands very well. I can stop him on a dime with whoa any where and every where. He hunts with enthusiasm. I have seen him point both planted , and wild birds. I hunted him with no pressure for a few months last year when he was around 8-9 months old (with "here" being the only real solid command at that point). So this is really his first full year hunting (with the yard work and training in place). He has seen a fair share of wild birds this year (ruffed, spruce grouse). At this point he is running by a bunch of the birds (like he is not scenting them), which I am not overly concerned with, because he is so young (and has pointed a couple). I'm confident that he will start finding them more often once he gets his brain and nose to click. When he does find a bird and points it, he is very steady. He will not budge until I go in and flush the bird (which is what I am fine with). Once I flush the bird, he will break and go retrieve it (works for me). The question I have, and cannot seem to find an answer on here is......When he accidently flushes a bird (does not bust it on purpose) he will chase after it. Should I let him continue to do this? Or should I whoa him or call him off the chase and continue to hunt in another direction? Will he stop chasing these birds eventually or does he need to be told to let em go and then continue to hunt. I just want to be clear, I am confident that he is not bumping them on purpose. I watched him running through an Aspen stand the other day. He darn near ran over a grouse, and when it flushed he chased it. That is what Im talking about. Should I stop that behavior, or will he eventually work the chase out of his system? Thanks for your replies. This is the only thing I really feel stuck on with him right now. everything else seems to be going well, and I feel he is more of a asset than a liability, and for a young dog its a good feeling!

Post by **topher40** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:11 pm

Keep your mouth shut and stop him with the collar. Sounds to me that he was "broke" to early and is now coming undone
.

Aksetter · Post by **Aksetter** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:28 pm

Chris, thanks for the reply. Could you please a explain a little more to me what you mean? I would really appreciate it. With everything else going well, what is coming undone? Should I nick him or use continuous till he stops chasing. He doesn't chase very far. Why use the collar on him, but say nothing? How will he know why I am using the collar on him? thanks again!!

Mike50 · Post by **Mike50** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:14 am

A couple questions came to me after reading this and my also help get you a clear answer from the pro trainers here?
Does this only happen when he is freash out of the box? Or does this happen even after a couple hours on the ground?
Stop to flush trainning?

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:10 am

I would let him chase for about 100' then call him off to hunt again.
He'll get the meassage and he may start to be more careful with his nose,too.
The running past birds has me concerned. After all - you know the bird is there, how come he doesn't?
I use a dog to find birds that I can't find.
Let's see what he's like next season - you should see a marked improvment.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:56 am

Let the chase get started, maybe ten yards and then, keeping your mouth shut, start nicing him steady till the chase stops. Even then say nothing. You let the chase get started so the he doesn't associate the shock with the bird. What happens is he in in chase and at some point runs into the shock. Get's back to you and you act like nothing happened and go on.

Wenaha · Post by **Wenaha** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 12:21 pm

Why not just use WHOA to stop the dog when he breaks to chase? I see no need to fry the dog around birds.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 12:28 pm

The dog should be trained to stop to flush...
What method did you use for whoa training?
Do you have access to launchers?
In "Training With Mo" they have great methodology and explanation for the importance of "stop to flush" in the big training picture.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 12:30 pm

If you feel that stimulation from an E-collar is frying them you either don't know how to use an E-collar or have not had much experience with one.
The only reason to FRY a dog with one would be to break them of chasing deer or other unwanted game or avoiding snakes etc.
If you fried a dog very often for chasing birds you soon would not have to worry about him having anything to do with them let alone chase!!

Post by **topher40** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 1:39 pm

Aksetter wrote:Chris, thanks for the reply. Could you please a explain a little more to me what you mean? I would really appreciate it. With everything else going well, what is coming undone? Should I nick him or use continuous till he stops chasing. He doesn't chase very far. Why use the collar on him, but say nothing? How will he know why I am using the collar on him? thanks again!!

you have to take the chase out of him, that is the point of using the collar. I would start with a LOW level of nick, then go to continuous. Keep moving up the stimulation until you get a response. Not a yelp, only enough to get teh dog uncomfortable enough to stop. Every time the dog thinks about chasing he will think twice. This may take quite a few birds and I would suggest walking along with some birds in your pocket. When the dog is looking at you I would throw a bird, if he chases then use the collar. I hope this is clear enough, if not feel free to ask more!

4dabirds · Post by **4dabirds** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 1:51 pm

I would love to hear why a dog that has not been trained to stop to flush should be corrected for non compliance for something it hs not been trained to do.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 1:59 pm

Plain and simple, if he likes birds and is birdy, don't let him chase them. Chasing never taught a dog anything and many will NOT stop on their own.

It CAN become so ingrained in them that they'd rather flush and chase than point.

Post by **topher40** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:01 pm

This should have been done long before the dog was "broke". Now the time has come to address the issue, just another step in the training process. Albeit out of order. Taking the chase out of the dog needs to happen. Correcting him after breaking point is only a continuation of the process that I would veture to say has already happened. Why would you let a dog chase that is supposedly broke? The dog already knows/should know that breaking after the bird gets up is a given. How would you take care of this issue?

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:04 pm

4dabirds wrote:I would love to hear why a dog that has not been trained to stop to flush should be corrected for non compliance for something it hs not been trained to do.

I think you call it training to stop to flush and it workd with little effort or discomfort for the dog.

Ezzy

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:11 pm

I think the point is there must have been a progression of training and the method for sorrecting the chase, i.e. getting a stop to flush should mirror the original methodology. For instance ... pinch collar and check cord, barrel, flank contact fro stop or neck? etc...should be established before advising someone to nick the dog in the act of chasing a wild bird? Haven't most of us always said that the e-collar is for correcting and not training?

I think based on the information thus far, the dog needs training and foundation first...

Post by **topher40** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:14 pm

Chukar12 wrote:I think the point is there must have been a progression of training and the method for sorrecting the chase, i.e. getting a stop to flush should mirror the original methodology. For instance ... pinch collar and check cord, barrel, flank contact fro stop or neck? etc...should be established before advising someone to nick the dog in the act of chasing a wild bird? Haven't most of us always said that the e-collar is for correcting and not training?

I think based on the information thus far, the dog needs training and foundation first...

I would agree with that although the method I prescribed will work even if it is out of sync in the "steps". That is why I mention it because I feel some steps were missed in the breaking process.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:16 pm

Sometimes the collar is used very very very lightly to condition a response....I have seen pups stop to flush in as few as 3 bird contacts with a collar (say TT) on 1 low/med.....if you keep your mouth closed it's between the dog and that bird flying away.

Post by **topher40** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:52 pm

REALLY? Its odd that it would work that well................... :roll:

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:03 pm

topher40 wrote:REALLY? Its odd that it would work that well................... :roll:

Well seeing as how it was taught to me by a respected trainer with 100's of placements and well over 50 ch titles put on dogs, I will take his word.

Besides Ive seen it work on over a dozen young pups, including mine.

It also pays to start the pup in a particular way and progress in direct
response to the individual dog. I didn't say they were broke with 3 birds, just stopped chasing , some take dozens.

Sometimes it pays to get off the bench and barrel and throw the check cord away and learn something new

Aksetter · Post by **Aksetter** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:48 pm

adogslife wrote:I would let him chase for about 100' then call him off to hunt again.
He'll get the meassage and he may start to be more careful with his nose,too.
The running past birds has me concerned. After all - you know the bird is there, how come he doesn't?
I use a dog to find birds that I can't find.
Let's see what he's like next season - you should see a marked improvment.

Good questions. I don't know the birds are there (wild birds). He is still learning, as he is very young. He is, for lack of better term an Old Hemlock/Ryman setter, so even at 1.5 yrs, he is very immature. The nose has me a touch concerned, but really not to much as he is young. This is his first season, so he is working everything out. Im sure the smells of bears, moose, rabbits, fox, coyote (and the list goes on) are confusing as heck to him. Things are getting better for sure. We have a 9 month long season up here, so we have a very long season to mature. Bewteen this year and next, I'm hoping he grows up a lot. A buddies OH setter matured and turned into a great dog at 4 yrs old. I just want to do the best by him that I can.

Aksetter · Post by **Aksetter** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:49 pm

DonF wrote:Let the chase get started, maybe ten yards and then, keeping your mouth shut, start nicing him steady till the chase stops. Even then say nothing. You let the chase get started so the he doesn't associate the shock with the bird. What happens is he in in chase and at some point runs into the shock. Get's back to you and you act like nothing happened and go on.

Thanks Don! Appreciate the advice.

Aksetter · Post by **Aksetter** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:56 pm

topher40 wrote:This should have been done long before the dog was "broke". Now the time has come to address the issue, just another step in the training process. Albeit out of order. Taking the chase out of the dog needs to happen. Correcting him after breaking point is only a continuation of the process that I would veture to say has already happened. Why would you let a dog chase that is supposedly broke? The dog already knows/should know that breaking after the bird gets up is a given. How would you take care of this issue?

I was hoping that I was clear in my first post, that he is NOT breaking after a point. In the example I used, he did not scent the bird in the Aspen stand. He never pointed the bird. He was running along, and went by a tree, and bam a bird flushed. At that point he chased the bird. If he scents bird, and goes on point, he is steady until I flush it (which I am fine with). Thoughts?

Aksetter · Post by **Aksetter** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:59 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:Plain and simple, if he likes birds and is birdy, don't let him chase them. Chasing never taught a dog anything and many will NOT stop on their own.

It CAN become so ingrained in them that they'd rather flush and chase than point.

He is not purposely flush the bird. I don't believe he ever scented it. But I agree I don't think he should even be chasing.

Aksetter · Post by **Aksetter** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:12 pm

topher40 wrote:
Aksetter wrote:Chris, thanks for the reply. Could you please a explain a little more to me what you mean? I would really appreciate it. With everything else going well, what is coming undone? Should I nick him or use continuous till he stops chasing. He doesn't chase very far. Why use the collar on him, but say nothing? How will he know why I am using the collar on him? thanks again!!

you have to take the chase out of him, that is the point of using the collar. I would start with a LOW level of nick, then go to continuous. Keep moving up the stimulation until you get a response. Not a yelp, only enough to get teh dog uncomfortable enough to stop. Every time the dog thinks about chasing he will think twice. This may take quite a few birds and I would suggest walking along with some birds in your pocket. When the dog is looking at you I would throw a bird, if he chases then use the collar. I hope this is clear enough, if not feel free to ask more!

Thanks Chris. Things are getting clearer! I do not have training birds. I live in an area that has high grouse/ptarmigan populations ( i often have grouse in my driveway). So wild birds for me. The planted birds I watched him on were this past spring at the trainers he was at in Minnesota. He found planted chukars, pointed them (very steady I could walk all around him and he wouldnt move), and didn't move until I flushed them. He would break at that point (which I am fine with) and retrieve the bird. What I didn't get to see with the planted birds there was what he would do if accidently flushed a bird (bird he didnt scent) because he pointed all of those planted birds. Now that we are in the wilds of Alaska, and he is trying to figure this all out, he has blown by birds he did not smell. I think with time his nose and brain will be better. Being a Old Hemlock/Ryman type, I know he will mature much slower than other dogs. Side note, I sent a message to my trainer, and waiting for a response (they are very good at getting back to me). I just wanted to post this to leanr more. Thanks for helping me out, and answering my questions!

Aksetter · Post by **Aksetter** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:16 pm

Thanks for all the help! I'm learning a lot, so keep the info coming. I am very happy with my dog so far. Even at 1.5 yrs, he has a ton of maturing to do (his breeding is famous for maturing slowly), and I think he will mature just fine. I just want to help him be the best he can.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:33 pm

I though I'd missed something here so had to go back and re-read the OP's post. This is not a finoshed dog we're talking about. It is going with the shot. Nothing wrong with that and if he's comfortable with it, it works. No need to teach stop to flush to this type ao mdog, simply take out the chase. Whoa I wouldn't use, to much like saying, "I don't want you to find birds in the first place". Nicing at the begining of the flush is to easy to associate with the bird. That could lead to blinking.

I recall a year of so someone had a young dog that was blinking birds. The outcome was that the pup was timid about the gun shot. The bird would flush and right after hear to gun shot. This isn't any different, we don't want the dog relating the shock, no matter how mild, with the bird. Let the chase get well under way and drag to dog into the stimulation.

By the way "frying the dog" also works well in snake and porqupine proofing.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:39 pm

In my view, when you use an electric collar to steady a dog on birds, without issuing a command, you're inviting a dog to blink and to NOT retrieve birds.

In my narrow view, it is one of the worst things you can do with a bird dog.

tori · Post by **tori** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 5:43 pm

i think letting a young dogs chase birds is good. it builds up the desire to hunt and find birds. also builds up his expsosure around birds so that when you do start stop to flush training with a collar pup now knows that the shock is not related to the bird since he has built up the desire already.
my problem is with the yard training in a controlled enviornment is one thing to correct the dog to stand still. but when hunting and the dog is a big runner you cant see what is going on to know for sure if he is chasing birds or something else. all you see is the dog chasing something since the chase started way out of view 400 yards out. now what do you do

Wenaha · Post by **Wenaha** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 6:23 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:If you feel that stimulation from an E-collar is frying them you either don't know how to use an E-collar or have not had much experience with one.
The only reason to FRY a dog with one would be to break them of chasing deer or other unwanted game or avoiding snakes etc.
If you fried a dog very often for chasing birds you soon would not have to worry about him having anything to do with them let alone chase!!

There are many ways to skin a cat. The e-collar is not a cure-all, just a training tool - and indiscriminate use has negative consequences. I have seen a number of setters made into blinkers with an e-collar used in this type of situation. Most setters will chase birds when they are young, and I do not have any problem with it because they soon learn that they can't catch the bird.

If this dog is staunch on point prior to the flush, the true answer is to take the dog to a training field and get him broke. Shoot birds for him when he gets it right, if he breaks at the flush, let them fly and WHOA the dog when he breaks, and take him back to the point of his break and make him stand.

And, yes, I know a bit about e-collars and their use - and misuse.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:14 pm

All I'm saying Frying is not usually a term used today concerning the proper use of an E-collar.
Oh & you might be surprised that there are some trainers out there that never train Whoa not counting alot of hunters.

Oh if you look at my avatar dog that pic was taken after 3 days of Whoa training,I set her up Whoaed her & walked around her taking pics.Does she look like she was ever FRIED & yes an E-collar was used.

Aksetter · Post by **Aksetter** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:22 pm

Wenaha wrote:
Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:If you feel that stimulation from an E-collar is frying them you either don't know how to use an E-collar or have not had much experience with one.
The only reason to FRY a dog with one would be to break them of chasing deer or other unwanted game or avoiding snakes etc.
If you fried a dog very often for chasing birds you soon would not have to worry about him having anything to do with them let alone chase!!
There are many ways to skin a cat. The e-collar is not a cure-all, just a training tool - and indiscriminate use has negative consequences. I have seen a number of setters made into blinkers with an e-collar used in this type of situation. Most setters will chase birds when they are young, and I do not have any problem with it because they soon learn that they can't catch the bird.

If this dog is staunch on point prior to the flush, the true answer is to take the dog to a training field and get him broke. Shoot birds for him when he gets it right, if he breaks at the flush, let them fly and WHOA the dog when he breaks, and take him back to the point of his break and make him stand.

And, yes, I know a bit about e-collars and their use - and misuse.

I am fine with him breaking at the flush. If he points, and is steady, and then I walk in and flush the bird and then he breaks, I am ok with that. Im talking about a bird that flushed that he never smelled, he never pointed, he didn't know it was there.

Post by **Sharon** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:28 pm

Aksetter wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:Plain and simple, if he likes birds and is birdy, don't let him chase them. Chasing never taught a dog anything and many will NOT stop on their own.

It CAN become so ingrained in them that they'd rather flush and chase than point.

He is not purposely flush the bird. I don't believe he ever scented it. But I agree I don't think he should even be chasing.
am fine with him breaking at the flush. If he points, and is steady, and then I walk in and flush the bird and then he breaks, I am ok with that. I'm talking about a bird that flushed that he never smelled, he never pointed, he didn't know it was there. quote

.................................................

So the real problem is that dog is missing birds , either on purpose or unintentionally.

The answer: Figure out why he is missing birds that you know are there and until you do, use the e-collar to correct him.(Let that bird get a ways away though.)

Aksetter · Post by **Aksetter** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:30 pm

DonF wrote:I though I'd missed something here so had to go back and re-read the OP's post. This is not a finoshed dog we're talking about. It is going with the shot. Nothing wrong with that and if he's comfortable with it, it works. No need to teach stop to flush to this type ao mdog, simply take out the chase. Whoa I wouldn't use, to much like saying, "I don't want you to find birds in the first place". Nicing at the begining of the flush is to easy to associate with the bird. That could lead to blinking.

I recall a year of so someone had a young dog that was blinking birds. The outcome was that the pup was timid about the gun shot. The bird would flush and right after hear to gun shot. This isn't any different, we don't want the dog relating the shock, no matter how mild, with the bird. Let the chase get well under way and drag to dog into the stimulation.

By the way "frying the dog" also works well in snake and porqupine proofing.

I think you are understanding what I am talking about the best. So make sure he is WELL into the chase, and give him a little stim? He isn't chasing very far. He may sprint after the flying bird 40 yards or so. Usually they are in pretty thick stuff.

Aksetter · Post by **Aksetter** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:41 pm

Sharon wrote:
Aksetter wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:Plain and simple, if he likes birds and is birdy, don't let him chase them. Chasing never taught a dog anything and many will NOT stop on their own.

It CAN become so ingrained in them that they'd rather flush and chase than point.
He is not purposely flush the bird. I don't believe he ever scented it. But I agree I don't think he should even be chasing.
am fine with him breaking at the flush. If he points, and is steady, and then I walk in and flush the bird and then he breaks, I am ok with that. I'm talking about a bird that flushed that he never smelled, he never pointed, he didn't know it was there. quote

.................................................

So the real problem is that dog is missing birds , either on purpose or unintentionally.

The answer: Figure out why he is missing birds that you know are there.

I think he is missing them because he is young and learning. I do not believe he is missing them on purpose. This is his first season. His first exposure, for the most part, to everything living creature and plant in Alaska. I think the nose and brain will click more and more, and he will figure out things. He is young,. These are wild birds that I don't even know are there. He hunts with his head up, down, and sometimes in the middle. He has recently started hunting with a higher head (for a OH/Ryman), because he is figuring out he can scent better that way.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:15 pm

Here is what I would do.I would use a pinch collar & attach a CC have 4 or 5 birds in a bag at your side,let him drag the CC as you get close enough get hold of the CC throw a bird he can see & stop him with the CC,say nothing do the same with the rest of the birds but don't say a word.Continue to do this untill he stops at sight of the bird flying or sound of the wings beating.The sight or sound of wings become the whoa command,this way if you are not around to say whoa he will stop on his own.Once he consistant stopping on his own transistion from the CC to E-collar & then remove CC.They usually catch on pretty fast & might surprise you.

Good Luck!!

Wenaha · Post by **Wenaha** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:47 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:All I'm saying Frying is not usually a term used today concerning the proper use of an E-collar.
Oh & you might be surprised that there are some trainers out there that never train Whoa not counting alot of hunters.

Oh if you look at my avatar dog that pic was taken after 3 days of Whoa training,I set her up Whoaed her & walked around her taking pics.Does she look like she was ever FRIED & yes an E-collar was used.

Well, good for you! Still, I think that you would have to agree that the e-collar is simply a tool to re-enforce trained behavior. For that reason, I do not agree with its use to stop or deter a dog that does not understand a commend - or for use without any command. Random stimulation without a command to be enforced will frighten and confuse the dog. This is why I am cautious when people start talking about the e-collar as a one size fits all problem solver.

As for WHOA training, I believe that it is the foundation for all further (advanced) training. I recommended breaking for this reason. A completely broke dog stops at flush or sight of a flying bird, does not break at the flush, shot or fall, and moves only when released. It isn't tough to get there, so why settle for less?

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:18 am

Wenaha wrote:

Still, I think that you would have to agree that the e-collar is simply a tool to re-enforce trained behavior. For that reason, I do not agree with its use to stop or deter a dog that does not understand a commend - or for use without any command. Random stimulation without a command to be enforced will frighten and confuse the dog. This is why I am cautious when people start talking about the e-collar as a one size fits all problem solver.

Exactly and well put. If it's one hole that pointing dog trainers have, it is NOT understanding ecollar pressure, response, and the resulting actions. Every pointing dog trainer should first work with a retriever trainer, the guys that wrote the books on the electric collar, THEN train pointing dogs.

Most would be greatly enlightened and you'd see many of the problems and misconceptions about pointing dog training with the ecollar disappear.

4dabirds · Post by **4dabirds** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 6:48 am

Your dog may be missing the birds due to a lack of conditioning . Dogs have the ability to breath through their noses and mouths simultaneously . This is how dogs are able to hunt and run at the same time. When dogs reach their threshold of conditioning they stop breathing through there noses to fasclitate cooling. Besides environmental factors this is why dogs have a hard time scenting in hot weather. As far as the e collar goes , dogs learn by association . To expect a dog to make an association with a behavior that is not trainedis just foolish. It seems to me your intuition is telling you this is not a good idea , otherwise you would have done it already. Stick to your intuition and train the dog stop to flush using fly away drills and a pigeon pole and you will be happy . Good luck

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:26 am

Your dog finds and points some birds. I would suggest that the ones he's bumping he went by on the up wind side.
a dog can pass a bird awfully close on the up wind side and never scent it. On those birds when the chase starts, give him just a bit and start the kicing. No different that taking the chase out if the dog fins the bird, points the bird, goes with the bird, you miss the bird and you want it to stop, no difference.

But I would bet a dollar to a sugar cookie what your seeing is your dog passing birds on the up wind side. I have never seen a dog that could smell a bird on the upwind side and have never noticed that a wild bird will let a dog get to close without flushing. A lot of dogs,learn after while to use the wind. Some guys will notice the the dog runs out in a line then at some point, turns and hunts back into the wind. If you attempt to hunt into the wind, your dog will be off into the wind and his chances of flushing a bird he doesn't scent goes way up. He may still make a turn at some point and end up in the wrong position to scent a bird. The duel is between the dog and the bird. Set your dog up best you can and let the game begin.

Last thought. Trust your dog till your sure of what it's doing.

Post by **Sharon** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:29 am

Aksetter wrote:
Sharon wrote:
Aksetter wrote:
He is not purposely flush the bird. I don't believe he ever scented it. But I agree I don't think he should even be chasing.
am fine with him breaking at the flush. If he points, and is steady, and then I walk in and flush the bird and then he breaks, I am ok with that. I'm talking about a bird that flushed that he never smelled, he never pointed, he didn't know it was there. quote

.................................................

So the real problem is that dog is missing birds , either on purpose or unintentionally.

The answer: Figure out why he is missing birds that you know are there.

I think he is missing them because he is young and learning. I do not believe he is missing them on purpose. This is his first season.[/b] His first exposure, for the most part, to everything living creature and plant in Alaska. I think the nose and brain will click more and more, and he will figure out things. He is young,. These are wild birds that I don't even know are there. He hunts with his head up, down, and sometimes in the middle. He has recently started hunting with a higher head (for a OH/Ryman), because he is figuring out he can scent better that way.

I think you're right . Well said and as Don said, "Trust your dog until you 're sure of what it's doing."

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:46 am

What's a pigeon pole?

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:49 am

it's mainly used by female pigeons when they are moulting...
The males just watch and bring them grit

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:51 am

viewtopic.php?f=89&t=29927&p=276702&hil ... le#p276702

...sorry that last post was immature and not helpful
the link above should atone

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 11:04 am

Thanks for the link. Interesting discussion

Aksetter · Post by **Aksetter** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:20 pm

Chukar12 wrote:it's mainly used by female pigeons when they are moulting...
The males just watch and bring them grit

I thought it was funny!

Aksetter · Post by **Aksetter** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:27 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Here is what I would do.I would use a pinch collar & attach a CC have 4 or 5 birds in a bag at your side,let him drag the CC as you get close enough get hold of the CC throw a bird he can see & stop him with the CC,say nothing do the same with the rest of the birds but don't say a word.Continue to do this untill he stops at sight of the bird flying or sound of the wings beating.The sight or sound of wings become the whoa command,this way if you are not around to say whoa he will stop on his own.Once he consistant stopping on his own transistion from the CC to E-collar & then remove CC.They usually catch on pretty fast & might surprise you.

Good Luck!!

Thanks! Good info.

Aksetter · Post by **Aksetter** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:29 pm

Chukar12 wrote:
viewtopic.php?f=89&t=29927&p=276702&hil ... le#p276702

...sorry that last post was immature and not helpful
the link above should atone

Nice vid

Aksetter · Post by **Aksetter** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:35 pm

Thanks you everyone for all the great info! It's very much appreciated. I live in the middle of no where Alaska, so I have limited resources (there are a couple in state people , but not anywhere close to me). Forums like these are great!

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:47 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:In my view, when you use an electric collar to steady a dog on birds, without issuing a command, you're inviting a dog to blink and to NOT retrieve birds.

In my narrow view, it is one of the worst things you can do with a bird dog.

Tell that to the two Bill's

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:09 pm

Aksetter wrote:
DonF wrote:Let the chase get started, maybe ten yards and then, keeping your mouth shut, start nicing him steady till the chase stops. Even then say nothing. You let the chase get started so the he doesn't associate the shock with the bird. What happens is he in in chase and at some point runs into the shock. Get's back to you and you act like nothing happened and go on.
Thanks Don! Appreciate the advice.

That is a BINGO. Precisely what I would do in the same circumstance. If you do it AFTER the dog is in full chase, the dog will understand that it is not being corrected for accidentally putting the bird to flight, but IS being corrected for chasing. This is exactly the same kind of thing as when you first steady a dog using a checkcord. If the dog roads in, you pop the trap and put the bird to flight. If the dog stands there...fine. If the dog starts to chase, you let it get to the end of the checkcord and WHAMO, the dog is upside down.

Correcting a dog for chasing is NOT correcting a dog around birds. It is actually correcting the dog for failure to WHOA. The flight of the bird should be just as much of a WHOA command as you yelling the word at the top of your lungs. JMO.

RayG