Very hard mouthed pup

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terrym
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Very hard mouthed pup

Post by terrym » Mon Oct 17, 2011 7:23 am

Well I have my 15 mth old Britt pointing nicely now. Great nose, holds beautifully and casts very well. The problem right now is he is very hard of mouth and won't retrieve to hand. When he gets his teeth on a bird he likes to run around with it and is pretty hard on it. He also isn't steady to flush and chases the birds in flight. Should I concentrate on steadying him to wing and shot first? And if yet what would be the best traing method, CC or e-collar. I am very leary about using the e-colar around live bird work.
I don't like people who don't like dogs......

Wild Mtn muddy toes Tucker
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h&t
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Re: Very hard mouthed pup

Post by h&t » Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:25 am

Terry,

Here's my plan in somewhat similar situation (based on some reading here and talking to some people):

- polish recall (at 95% now);
- work on retrieves with dummies;
- finish the first hunting season;
- teach 'hold' (she knows 'fetch' and 'give');
- introduce memory retrieves;
- progress to frozen game with hold at sit and at heel;
- move on to retrieves of frozen, thawed and fresh birds (gradually), use CC if necessary to reel the dog back;
- FF as last resort.

I am leaving STWSF for the next spring (when I can get a partner to help with the shooting :) )

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Re: Very hard mouthed pup

Post by gonehuntin' » Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:45 pm

Your BIGGEST problem is a total lack of real obedience. IF the dog came when called, he WOULD bring you the bird. IF he came when called, you could break him off any bird he's chasing.

Start with obedience. I'd go obedience then ff. I'd steady him when done.
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Re: Very hard mouthed pup

Post by birddog1968 » Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:56 pm

I too would work on recall, after that I would just go hunting and have fun, pick up training again in the spring, thats a young dog.
The second kick from a mule is of very little educational value - from Wing and Shot.

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terrym
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Re: Very hard mouthed pup

Post by terrym » Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:50 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:Your BIGGEST problem is a total lack of real obedience. IF the dog came when called, he WOULD bring you the bird. IF he came when called, you could break him off any bird he's chasing.

Start with obedience. I'd go obedience then ff. I'd steady him when done.
Actually when he doesn't have a bird in his mouth he's fairly obedient but not perfect obviously. I have trained to whoa , come, can control his cast ( left right ) with arm signals and he comes to the whistle. Put a bird in his mouth he's a nut case.

I have been told a couple times now to not expect so much this fall as he's only hunted a bit now. We'll finish the season and do some obedience over the winter as well as retrieving. He actually isn't bad with a training dummy but put some feathers in his mouth he goes nuts.
I don't like people who don't like dogs......

Wild Mtn muddy toes Tucker
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Re: Very hard mouthed pup

Post by gonehuntin' » Mon Oct 17, 2011 2:35 pm

You're making excuses for your dog. If he doesn't come with feathers, he doesn't come. "Not Bad" is actually a failure. Obedience is and all the time thing, and it's a 100% thing. God gave him his natural abilities, You give him the training.
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Re: Very hard mouthed pup

Post by birddogger » Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:04 pm

FF as last resort.
Why do you feel FF should be a last resort? Just curious.

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Re: Very hard mouthed pup

Post by h&t » Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:26 pm

birddogger wrote:
FF as last resort.
Why do you feel FF should be a last resort? Just curious.

Charlie
You know why :-) There are tons of discussions on that.
First of all, because I don't know how and I have fairly soft dog.
I don't want to start a conversation on FF here.

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Re: Very hard mouthed pup

Post by gonehuntin' » Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:33 pm

Fact is, if you can't obedience train the dog, you probably can't force them either.
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Re: Very hard mouthed pup

Post by birddogger » Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:52 pm

h&t wrote:
birddogger wrote:
FF as last resort.
Why do you feel FF should be a last resort? Just curious.

Charlie
You know why :-) There are tons of discussions on that.
First of all, because I don't know how and I have fairly soft dog.
I don't want to start a conversation on FF here.
I understand...I just thought you may consider FF to be harsh or cruel.

Charlie
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Re: Very hard mouthed pup

Post by h&t » Mon Oct 17, 2011 8:21 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:Fact is, if you can't obedience train the dog, you probably can't force them either.
not very helpful, don't you think? :mrgreen:

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Re: Very hard mouthed pup

Post by Sharon » Mon Oct 17, 2011 8:28 pm

Hello Canadian friend. :)

I've read Gonehuntin's posts for a long time and he is always trying to be helpful. If he comes on heavier than we might like sometimes , it's only because he feels he needs to make that point.
You have a good plan. Keep on working on having the dog come every time. Even today my 8 year old decided she was going to blow me off. I had forgotten the e-collar :roll: so I had to boot it down that hill and "guide" her to where I had called her. You can't let them get away with it even once. You have a PM.
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Re: Very hard mouthed pup

Post by terrym » Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:19 pm

Thanks for the pm Sharon.

Gonehuntin, no argument from here. He's a stubborn little alpha type and I need to turn up the intensity on his obedience work. What i was trying to say in the first post was would you also use an e-collar to correct this behaviour while he has a bird in mouth? That's concerning me as I wonder about the collar making him bird shy?
I don't like people who don't like dogs......

Wild Mtn muddy toes Tucker
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/3genview.php?id=3772

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Re: Very hard mouthed pup

Post by Sharon » Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:34 pm

That's why dogs learn the trained retrieve on the table with a dowel etc. By the time they hit the field and need to retrieve a bird, all that has been worked out.
Then again I could be totally wrong. :)
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

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Re: Very hard mouthed pup

Post by gonehuntin' » Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:17 am

terrym wrote:Thanks for the pm Sharon.

Gonehuntin, no argument from here. He's a stubborn little alpha type and I need to turn up the intensity on his obedience work. What i was trying to say in the first post was would you also use an e-collar to correct this behaviour while he has a bird in mouth? That's concerning me as I wonder about the collar making him bird shy?
IF he were force broken with the ecollar, I most certainly would use it. If not, you run the risk of the dog thinking the bird is "hot" and not retrieving more of them.

That's why an organized program is essential to all dog's. Once you have the foundation laid, correction of nearly any problem is possible. Without this foundation, correction of problems becomes a patch job.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

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Re: Very hard mouthed pup

Post by gonehuntin' » Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:20 am

h&t wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:Fact is, if you can't obedience train the dog, you probably can't force them either.
not very helpful, don't you think? :mrgreen:
Some people are dog trainers, some are not. For those that are not, they are better off simply sending the dog to a pro for eight weeks, and letting someone that knows what they are doing and enjoys it, do the job.

There is not much fun in obedience training or force fetching a dog. Actually, the last thing I would want to do after a crappy day at work is ff a dog.

Sometimes the best money we can spend is to send a dog to an expert, then watch and learn from that expert as the dog progresses. Then you're getting two "animals" trained for the price of one. :mrgreen:
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

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Re: Very hard mouthed pup

Post by h&t » Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:59 am

Now I see, this message has a point, but let's leave it to 'why would I send a dog to a pro' thread.
I think the OP (and myself) prefer to train our dogs by ourselves.

Back to the training issue. I wouldn't use e-c in this case for mentioned reasons.
I would concentrate on obedience and retrieving.
Volume and slow progressions, rather than pressure.

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Re: Very hard mouthed pup

Post by gonehuntin' » Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:29 pm

h&t wrote:
I think the OP (and myself) prefer to train our dogs by ourselves.

Back to the training issue. I wouldn't use e-c in this case for mentioned reasons.
I would concentrate on obedience and retrieving.
Volume and slow progressions, rather than pressure.
Then if you train dog's yourself, do it in an organized program, not haphazardly. Start at the start. It's like building a house; leave out the footing and the foundation will begin to crumple. When you add parts as trouble appears, the roof sags.

Same with a dog. An orderly and organized progression leaves you all of the tools you need to correct the problems that can occasionally arise.

By following a program you also eliminate the greatest problem; an inept trainer. Train yourself first, the dog second.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

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Re: Very hard mouthed pup

Post by h&t » Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:53 pm

couldn't agree more

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Re: Very hard mouthed pup

Post by wills1235 » Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:52 pm

As I learn more about training dogs, I am always amazed that we ever got any dogs trained without e-collars. And where would I ever learn what I'm doing wrong if I didn't have this nifty computer, which is plugged in to that internet thing, to communicate with all the geniuses out there to tell me? Gosh, I guess I'll just go spend time in the field with the dog and we can be failures together....
The best place to hunt is where the birds are. Next best is where they ain't. Anywhere else works too.

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Re: Very hard mouthed pup

Post by gonehuntin' » Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:11 am

wills1235 wrote:As I learn more about training dogs, I am always amazed that we ever got any dogs trained without e-collars. And where would I ever learn what I'm doing wrong if I didn't have this nifty computer, which is plugged in to that internet thing, to communicate with all the geniuses out there to tell me? Gosh, I guess I'll just go spend time in the field with the dog and we can be failures together....
Another fine, useful, and constructive post. Maybe you should go to the field.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

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Re: Very hard mouthed pup

Post by DonF » Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:52 am

wills1235 wrote:As I learn more about training dogs, I am always amazed that we ever got any dogs trained without e-collars. And where would I ever learn what I'm doing wrong if I didn't have this nifty computer, which is plugged in to that internet thing, to communicate with all the geniuses out there to tell me? Gosh, I guess I'll just go spend time in the field with the dog and we can be failures together....
Where did that come from?
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Re: Very hard mouthed pup

Post by terrym » Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:38 am

Unfortunately it's a short bird season around here so that will leave me with plenty of time to train further and work on the weak areas. I have no plans of sending the dog away to a pro but will work with one on a weekend session basis. I know it's not as effective but that's going to be the way with us anyway. I like H&T's advice and systemetic approach with the frozen birds. This dog is a firecracker though and I need to reighn him in some more. He does well without game but loses it when around live birds in terms of obedience/control. Hopefully he calms down as we hunt more in the next few weeks.
I don't like people who don't like dogs......

Wild Mtn muddy toes Tucker
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Re: Very hard mouthed pup

Post by wills1235 » Thu Oct 20, 2011 1:23 am

Listen, my response wasn't just to this post in particular. I had been reading a number of posts. But to me it seems to always be the same question. It's like "whats wrong with kids today???" It's not that dogs (or kids) are inherently bad. Spend time with them and teach them. I'm sure sticking a collar on them, dogs or kids, and giving them a shot when they misbehave will work, mostly. But teach them good manners, (dogs or kids) good manners, and they will be good citizens, always.
The best place to hunt is where the birds are. Next best is where they ain't. Anywhere else works too.

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Re: Very hard mouthed pup

Post by phoenix » Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:02 pm

I trained my first dog sans e-collar, did just fine. Have an e-collar now, use it almost never, but its there IF I need it. Good tool, but like most only as usefull as the person weilding it and will do way more harm than good in the hands of someone who doesnt have a clue how to use it properly. Both of the setters I have trained retrieve to hand & all I did was "play" fetch with them as puppies and continue to play "fetch" with them as they grew. I NEVER took the fetched item away but played until they gave it, (Maurice Lindly did the very same thing with my 16 week old pup after retriveing his first quail) & then tossed it again. These play sessions last 3-5 tossed and we move on. I always used the "fetch it up" and they now know exactly what that means. Jax, my 5 month old llew, proved it to me today when he was obediant and brought the FIRST winged quail he caught to me upon command. You reap what you sow!

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