Gundog training without e-collars

betty · Post by **betty** » Sun May 14, 2006 8:49 am

What did gundog trainers do in the past to train their dogs when there were no e-collars? How did they manage to train their dogs? Or did they remain untrained?
I wondered that yesterday when I took my dog to our trainer's exercise grounds.

gundogguru · Post by **gundogguru** » Sun May 14, 2006 9:35 am

Betty I train 99% of the time with out an E- collar. They are a great tool I just don't like using them If I don't have to. I have trained for years with out them. It takes longer to finish a dog with out them. It's much harder to correct bad behavior when a dog is not wearing one. I finished both of my Master dogs with a collar on both of them less than 4 time each. Just my 2 cents

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sun May 14, 2006 1:38 pm

In truth ...
many pro trainers back in the pre e collar days did many things which would shock you
Peppering dogs with the shot gun ....lots of physical handl;ing to many dogs being shot when they contiued not to comply

the e collar still has a cloud which many people are afraid of..mostly as the first e coallrs which where made where what are called Trash collars ...they were to shock a dog mostly hound dogs for chasing unwanted quarry

Then as training evovled and the e collars became varible with less intensity trainers started to learn how to use thecollars for corrections and the lighter stimualting the collars got the easier to correct a dog at the time of an infraction which helped more and more dogs excel at being trained dogs through continuos repetition of correct timing where this is where many older day dogs couldn't benefit from the correct timing

When speaking with Rick smith ..he said even his dad Delmar Smith would rewrite the book he put out with Bill Tarrant..as training has grown and changed alot with the modification of the e collar of today over the e collar of just 10 years ago

The trick with any training method or the main key with any training method is TIMING if the timing of a correction is directly related to the excact infraction a dog is doing at the time the infraction is starting to happen..and using only what is needed for the particualr dog to understand whether your using a command lead, check cord, e collar pinch collar what ever your using and it is repeated over and over obtainig the same results of what a dog is supposed to do ...your training will progress much faster with a dog that is happy and any corrections are related to a action...no fear a correction with an e collar shouldn't be any more correction then when checking with a check cord...just the only difference is your farther away

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Sun May 14, 2006 6:08 pm

If "Professional" trainers did that back in the 'old days' then what do you think they do with e-collars now?

A Leopard can't change it's spots.

llewgor · Post by **llewgor** » Sun May 14, 2006 6:27 pm

no fear a correction with an e collar shouldn't be any more correction then when checking with a check cord...just the only difference is your farther away

Problem with most who are concern about e-collars is they don't understand this. To me the e-collar is a check cord and is set at it's lowest setting (no pain). Sometimes I'll use it to change a dogs direction for silent hunting and some models have a vibration mode which work the same way. If it's used properly it's a great tool better than bb's in the can.

betty · Post by **betty** » Mon May 15, 2006 12:25 am

So some of the dogs were not trained enough. Right?
gundogguru, if you don't use an e-collar to reinforce commands in the field, then what do you use?

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Mon May 15, 2006 11:20 am

Margaret wrote:If "Professional" trainers did that back in the 'old days' then what do you think they do with e-collars now?

A Leopard can't change it's spots.

I think you have read into this the wrong way. I am not saying that things did not get a little western and I am sure that many dogs did not make the cut. The collar today has made it easier to train the softer dogs. The Pro's imprivised with what they had. Not to mention most dogs are started out without the collar and the collar is only used to re-enforce a command that has been learned.
I have a buddy that trains today without the use of a collar. His dogs are as good as any other dog out there.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Mon May 15, 2006 12:37 pm

NAVHDA used to recommend using pliers on the dog's ear when force fetch training. It was in the Green Book I got 25 years ago.

I also had a person who was a renowned retriever and hunting shorthair trainer, try to teach me back then how to shoot a dog with a slingshot and a marble. Always concerned me that I would hit the dog in the wrong spot.

Alot of versatile and German dog trainers would just beat the daylights out of the dog in obedience work, to the point where it would submit. Pick it up by the ears, knee it in the chest.

But why does anyone need or want to know this stuff. It is history, at least here in the US.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon May 15, 2006 3:27 pm

Margaret wrote:If "Professional" trainers did that back in the 'old days' then what do you think they do with e-collars now?

A Leopard can't change it's spots.

Your Idea of the ecollar is way off..Professional trainers which are True pros only use what is needed.to help a dog learn not shock and scare it in to doing stuff..People like that do not make their names well known and sought after...

If a person doesn't know how to use a tool no matter what that tool is then it is only as affective as the person using it..so if a person thinks archaic and barbaric then that is the meythods they choose to use...not mine and not those to which I have high regard for
I want my dogs happy and enthusiatic in the field not fearfull and I put an e collar on my dog...doesn't mean it is being used if my dogs are doing what they are supposed to be doing...I professionally guide and everytime I go out i put e collars on my dogs just incase that moment occurs to which I need to lightly remind my dog to not step or come back closer or what ever command they are chosing to test at that moment...I rarely have to recharge my collars as I rarely ever hvae to push the button at the lightest setting to which my dog will respond...if a dog is screaming then the level is to high ..that is not what the collar is about....most light settings on a collar has less stimulation then a 9 volt battery in the tougue..
So with proper training methods the e collar is only an extension of teh check cord only to re enforce commands taught with an over lay of sensations...

any tool or aid a dog needs to learn how to deal with from a leash to an e collar physical force and abuse is never the chosen method for those who want the best out of their dogs...The first time a puppy is on a leash.it is a scarey thing to him it is the skilled hands of a knowledgalbe person who helps a pup learn about how to handle the restraints of training and all training is teaching a dog restraint and compliance

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Mon May 15, 2006 3:39 pm

i think perhaps you are thinking pointers and margaret may be thinking a little more broadly. any trainer of pointing breeds who is any good does not overuse the collar simply because it will be reflected in the dog's style. so in the pointing breed world it is a self-enforcing phenomenon. i think there was a thread awhile back though, about versatile dog trainers making the bank hot in order to make the dog search harder, and i know, at least some years back, the retriever trainers were pretty heavy on the button. maybe they have figured out that they need to change also.

i think a combination of breeding dogs that are not so "hard," and learn a little more easily without extreme pressure, and the fact that overuse will show in the dogs style, has taught us in the pointing breed world to go light on the electricity.

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Mon May 15, 2006 6:28 pm

Thank you John.

The fact of the matter is this is what was written -
"In truth ... many pro trainers back in the pre e collar days did many things which would shock you Peppering dogs with the shot gun ....lots of physical handl;ing to many dogs being shot when they contiued not to comply "

and my reply remains, what would this type of "professional" trainer do with an electric collar?

Hope that clears up any confusion.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Mon May 15, 2006 6:46 pm

To qoute something from my profession: "A fool with a tool is still a fool."

That said, neither the professional trainer nor the e-collar as a useful tool are colored by that.

Cheers,

ViniferaVizslas · Post by **ViniferaVizslas** » Tue May 16, 2006 5:30 am

I'll second gundogguru.

E-collars are a great training tool when used properly. What bothers me is when people can't, or won't take their dog hunting without one. When the e-collar becomes a permanently attached remote control; I think it takes something away from the hunt and the man/dog relationship.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Tue May 16, 2006 6:35 am

viny-

I think you have raised a very good question.

I like to think I get the dogs trained to the point where I don't need one, but I bring one along and put it on the dog everytime, just as a matter of habit. I almost never use them in the field once the dogs are trained, but have it there.

Several years ago I was hunting with friends. They had their lab down. It got a bird up, which flew over a road, someone shot it, and the lab started an enthusiastic retrieve - right into the path of a car, which hit and killed it. The owner tried, of course, to stop the lab with commands. It was fairly well trained. But in full chase after that dead bird, it did not heed them.

Situations like this do arise, unfortunately, where there is no room for error. And I guess, having seen it happen, I will always put a collar on my dog out hunting. The trick is learning to keep your finger off the dang button.

markj · Post by **markj** » Tue May 16, 2006 10:11 am

which flew over a road, someone shot it,

In Iowa this is a ticket, a big ticket. I wonder if it is for that reason tho? or the safety of drivers on the road. We are not to shoot something like 200 yards from a major road (meaning paved according to a DNR person i asked). Same as buildings and fields with livestock.

Some use an ecollar some dont. I dont bother myself over it, dont sweat the little things.

Years ago, I was hunting wiht my Dad and some of his friends, one guy had a gsp and a young setter, the setter was acting confused and lost as she was on my side of the draw. When he found her he lifted her over his head and slammed her to the ground. I took my nephew aside and explained to him that some were unhuman towards their dogs and we wont hunt with that any more, he was 8 or 9 and it really upset him.

We split off and went our way after that.

Some train as such, I stay away from that type. We use the gentle approach in training all animals including horses. They are happier and will out perform an abused dog every time.

Post by **Ayres** » Tue May 16, 2006 11:05 am

markj wrote:
which flew over a road, someone shot it,
In Iowa this is a ticket, a big ticket. I wonder if it is for that reason tho? or the safety of drivers on the road. We are not to shoot something like 200 yards from a major road (meaning paved according to a DNR person i asked). Same as buildings and fields with livestock.

It's a ticket in Illinois as well. But, I also know of a LOT of rural areas criss-crossed by gravel roads with pickups that blow down them doing 70 mph. There's one such road right along the east side of my grandpa's 40 acres in SE Illinois. I hunt the south half of his ground, and can get pretty near that old gravel road. The pickups are few and far between, but they are there.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue May 16, 2006 12:45 pm

I would guess that all Wagonmaster meant to say was it was shot and then went down acrosss the road. That happens many many times in Iowa where it is legal to hunt the ditches along the roads. In Illinois you can't do that but it is a major way in Iowa that provides a place to hunt for many people.

Ezzy

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Tue May 16, 2006 11:01 pm

NAVHDA used to recommend using pliers on the dog's ear when force fetch training. It was in the Green Book I got 25 years ago.

I have the Green Book and that is not in it at all.

Alot of versatile and German dog trainers would just beat the daylights out of the dog in obedience work, to the point where it would submit. Pick it up by the ears, knee it in the chest.

Yes I'm sure they did. I am sure you are right. Thank you for sharing with us all. Anything else about the Germans and the dogs they developed that you can think of? Spit it out man

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed May 17, 2006 7:37 am

Margaret,

I don't think that post was made to downgrade the Germans but rather to explain how many of the dogs were trained in Germany. From my knowledge that is right on. ANd many of the same methods were employed here in America as well. If we keep our posts on the subject and not on the presenter, we won't start any arguements and bad feelings that do not help any of us learn.

Ezzy

PAHunter · Post by **PAHunter** » Wed May 17, 2006 10:11 am

I like the German style of training, without an ecollar. I think the use of force to assert dominance is misunderstood by a lot of people, because the ecollar has become so popular here in the states. I wonder what the Germans think about the training methods that we use on the dogs that they created. :roll:

I just wish there were more resources translated in English we would all be better informed and better trainers because of it.

Wagonmaster · Post by **Wagonmaster** » Wed May 17, 2006 11:47 am

my version of the green book 25 years ago did.

i think you are missing my point about training methods though. trainers in all the disciplines used different methods decades ago than they use today. that would be true of the major circuit pointer trainers, plain hunting dog trainers, versatile dog trainers. that was my point.

if we are going to criticize any of them, we should not leave the others out.

everyone has changed their methods.

NDBDHunter · Post by **NDBDHunter** » Wed May 17, 2006 2:10 pm

I have had several dogs and I don't use an e-collar to train or handle my dogs. Up until now my dogs haven't been steady to wing and shot, just wing.

I'm currently training my 2 year old to being steady to W & S and I'm really close. And none of it has been done with an e-collar. And I haven't shot or beat her.

I think e-collars are allowing trainers/breeders to train dogs that were not able to be trained in the past (because they are to stubborn and unmanagable) breed them and pass their puppies to the average dog owner as "good potential" hunting dogs. Now those new owners better get a e-collar because the parents "Had" to be trained with one. It's just perpituating the stubborn unmanagable dog.

Similiar to the breeding of dogs that require force fetching. Breeders are not focusing on breeding dogs with the desire to retrieve, because they can always teach them to retrieve by force. When I buy a pup I look for dogs that do not need to be FF'd

If everyone could afford an e-collar or force fetch a dog that would be okay, but what about the average guy who has a couple kids and can't spend $350 or 4$00 for a new collar or $700 or so to have their dog FF'd

When my dogs were young and didn't listen I'd chase them down and shake them up a little, and now they think i can always catch'em.

I'd rather own a dog that didn't require an e-collar or to be FF'd

Just My Opinion

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Wed May 17, 2006 3:44 pm

NDBDHunter wrote:I have had several dogs and I don't use an e-collar to train or handle my dogs. Up until now my dogs haven't been steady to wing and shot, just wing.

I'm currently training my 2 year old to being steady to W & S and I'm really close. And none of it has been done with an e-collar. And I haven't shot or beat her.

I think e-collars are allowing trainers/breeders to train dogs that were not able to be trained in the past (because they are to stubborn and unmanagable) breed them and pass their puppies to the average dog owner as "good potential" hunting dogs. Now those new owners better get a e-collar because the parents "Had" to be trained with one. It's just perpituating the stubborn unmanagable dog.

Similiar to the breeding of dogs that require force fetching. Breeders are not focusing on breeding dogs with the desire to retrieve, because they can always teach them to retrieve by force. When I buy a pup I look for dogs that do not need to be FF'd

If everyone could afford an e-collar or force fetch a dog that would be okay, but what about the average guy who has a couple kids and can't spend $350 or 4$00 for a new collar or $700 or so to have their dog FF'd

When my dogs were young and didn't listen I'd chase them down and shake them up a little, and now they think i can always catch'em.

I'd rather own a dog that didn't require an e-collar or to be FF'd

Just My Opinion

I think you have a good opinion, even thou I don't agree totally. I don't think most of us use a collar because we have too, but rather it has been a tool that we incorperated in training. Of my dogs and client's dogs I know I could train each of them with out the collar but I used the collar on each one of them.
I too like the dogs with a strong retrieving potential. I also have seen pups from parents that never retrieve, retrieve birds, and pups from dog that retrieve everything under the sun, not retrieve.

I think a key is starting them young playing retrieving games to build this drive.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed May 17, 2006 4:07 pm

Training without an e-collar is kind of like farming without a tractor or having a bicycle instead of a car for your personal use. You can do anything without just as well as with but it will take you a lot longer and more work on your part. When someone invents a new and better tool there are always those thast hate to change and use it and that is their choice. Myself, I have my first e-collar after training dogs without one for years and it is a great tool that IMO makes it a whole lot easier on me and the dog. Just like a tractor or a car, we call it progress.

Ezzy

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Wed May 17, 2006 4:42 pm

How about this - next season you all hunt for 1 month without an electric collar and report back.

People seem to say we need the collar all the time just in case. Well I am sure there are a few places people hunt where a collar might be needed "just in case" but myself I'd stay away from them.
I believe that the dogs behavior is governed by the wearing of the electric collar, and without it they are not as well trained as the owners like to think.

As for the German methods, I am sure that there was harsh training by some people, just like there were and probably still are the fools who would shoot at their dogs at a distance and the way some retrieving breeds are force fetched today is SPCA stuff, but to say ALL is just too much.

And the book I have been assured is exactly the same as first published. Perhaps John you could scan the page and send it to me?

I just get tired of this constant put down.

Ridge-Point · Post by **Ridge-Point** » Wed May 17, 2006 9:12 pm

How about this - next season you all hunt for 1 month without an electric collar and report back.

I do this every season, this past season I did not get out as much as I usually do, but when I did the bird numbers were good, and the dog work was better. The gunning was a little rusty though...

I believe that the dogs behavior is governed by the wearing of the electric collar, and without it they are not as well trained as the owners like to think.

This is a known issue that can easily be avoided. The e-coller is simply an extension of the check cord. It allows incredible control over the timing and the severity of corrections. It allows the absolute minumum amount of pressure to be used to achieve the same goal at an accelerated rate. Faster means less pressure and more style, drive, and obiediance if done correctly.

You can yell woah at a dog that is trying to point, you can yell no to a dog that caught a bird, or you can shock the heck out of them at either instance with a coller. Pick your poisen, the coller will probably have him flagging or blinking alot faster than the other methods, but they all lead down the same path. It's all about timing and the severity of the correction the e-coller gives you both. You also need to know when its your fault, don't blame your pup when he catches a bird if you gave him nothing but poor flying quail.

Post by **Ayres** » Thu May 18, 2006 12:44 am

Margaret wrote:I believe that the dogs behavior is governed by the wearing of the electric collar, and without it they are not as well trained as the owners like to think.

What you describe is commonly called "collar-wise." I won't say that my dog doesn't know when he wears the collar or not, but I will say that each dog is different. I put the e-collar on Justus very infrequently and he does mind my verbal commands just fine when wearing it and when not wearing it. As a matter of fact, even when he does wear it I can't even remember the last time I pressed the button on my transmitter. So, what I'm getting at is that I would take your bet.

I really enjoy it better when Justus runs without the collar too. I get better pictures that way.

But I do believe in its use as a training tool. Undoubtedly some folks may get dependant on it, but each trainer and dog is different. In the same way sweeping generalizations don't bode well when talking about old-method trainers, they also don't bode well when talking about new-method trainers.

markj · Post by **markj** » Thu May 18, 2006 8:11 am

What you describe is commonly called "collar-wise."

And thats not all bad now is it?

My rescue dog has a yard collar on for the fence, the batteries are dead, shhhh dont tell him

he will not go anywhere close to the perimeter, I will put in fresh ones this weekend, I test them all before I put them on the dog, no beep means dead battery. The stubborn dog collars have a low battery lite.

Same as in the field, many e collars have a "dummy" collar just for this reason.

I guess it is up to each and everyone which method they use, I like modern technology over 100 year old stuff. I prefer to belive technology is kewl and helps in some situations, like someone said as a tractor to the farmer. Just look at them now compared to say 75 years ago.

I dont have any old training books but I do remember some very old ones and the pliars trick. Ouch. Dad used to pinch an ear between the finger and thumb, or sqeeze a paw. I have seen worse too.

I view all animals as "livestock" treat them well and you will reap rewards, treat them bad and you will lose in the end.

TAK · Post by **TAK** » Thu May 18, 2006 9:54 am

"How about this - next season you all hunt for 1 month without an electric collar and report back.

People seem to say we need the collar all the time just in case. Well I am sure there are a few places people hunt where a collar might be needed "just in case" but myself I'd stay away from them.
I believe that the dogs behavior is governed by the wearing of the electric collar, and without it they are not as well trained as the owners like to think. "

Honestly I do run without a collar but it is only if I am working pen birds and it is a dog I know has his brain going. Pen bird most times do as we hope they do and you have time to correct the problem before you create one. As far as hunting I nearly always run a collar. It is these wild birds that give me and the dogs the best training and chance to correct for the mess up. I am not trying to change ones opinion on how to train because I train with folks that don't use a collar and get the same results. I just like the use of the collar. I can also take the collar off the dogs for a month and get the same results. I trial and can't use the collar in the trials. So I train with it on, and when I take it off well, I know for a fact that they don't know when the collar is on or off.

ViniferaVizslas · Post by **ViniferaVizslas** » Thu May 18, 2006 10:00 am

I appreciate technology but value simplicity. I have nothing against a properly used e-collar. I simply haven't felt I needed one yet and will never come to depend on one. Some things just don't need to be improved - like shotguns with two barrels next to each other.

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Thu May 18, 2006 4:09 pm

ViniferaVizslas wrote:I appreciate technology but value simplicity. I have nothing against a properly used e-collar. I simply haven't felt I needed one yet and will never come to depend on one. Some things just don't need to be improved - like shotguns with two barrels next to each other.

Yeah! Now if I could only manage to hit the darn birds with mine.
I've got to the stage now where I just say I'm off this weekend to scare some birds

markj · Post by **markj** » Fri May 19, 2006 7:52 am

I have never used a double gun, I have a friend that does tho. He collects old doubles like lefevers and such. I rely on my new Remington 12 ga. 11-87 light contour. Havent missed a bird with it yet. I had an older model but it was too heavy in the barrel so I was way behind and missed plenty.

I may one day find a double i like the feel of and buy it.

Hard to shoot 4 quail out of a covey with a double tho...

Post by **Ayres** » Fri May 19, 2006 11:31 am

markj wrote:Hard to shoot 4 quail out of a covey with a double tho...

Here in Illinois you get 3 shots max in a shotgun. One in the chamber and two in the magazine. And, if you shoot a double for very long you get quick at reloading. I don't know that I'd want to take 3 or 4 quail out of a single covey flush though.

ViniferaVizslas · Post by **ViniferaVizslas** » Fri May 19, 2006 12:50 pm

markj wrote:
Hard to shoot 4 quail out of a covey with a double tho...

Two of anything at one time is plenty for me. I like to let some go.

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Sun May 21, 2006 8:23 pm

Margarett: I wonder what is behind your questions on the "Proffessionals".

I have grown very attached to my Ruger 20 guage, so fast to mount and light to carry. I did need to have it fitted. Had some cast built in. It made a world of difference. (well spent $120.oo) The need for speed in the Ruff woods.

When one trains a dog they need to teach the dog the commands and the dog must understand the commands prior to using the collar. Then if you choose to use the collar then you will need to collar condition your dog. I use the lowest level that gets some kind of muscle twitch or head turn etc. Then you tranision the dog away from the collar. A few tune up drills prior to hunting season or even during is usually all that is needed to keep the dog on the straight and narrow. As with any training timing and effect are everything.

I think the "Hot Button" should only be used in teaching a dog to avoid dangerous behavior. Like Snake proofing, Chasing deer (here in Maine if some one see your dog chasing deer: The dog will probally be shot.) Keeping them away from roads.etc. That button is a lot more humane than being shot or hit by a car or bitten by a rattler.

My dogs all hunt with out e-collars. Two are trained with out the collars two are trained with. I like the style of those with. They all perform as trained, usually. Some times they will miscue, at that time you give up the bird and train in the field or woods as it were.

Margaret · Post by **Margaret** » Sun May 21, 2006 11:01 pm

Rick, I wasn't so much asking a question as trying to point out that persons who would shoot at their dog (& other brainless behaviors) before electric collars became the vogue is hardly likely to change their "spots" when they get an electric collar in their hands.

In all honesty, I feel I was/am just stating the obvious

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Mon May 22, 2006 6:20 pm

Hi Margaret:

Thanks, I thought that was it. It is just some folks hear the words electric collar and think the worse. If one has been abusive then they probally will remain that way. I understand. Although, I do know of one well known trianer that was reportedly rough and once he got hold of a collar he calmed down. Maybe he shocked himself one to many times.

Gun Dog Forum

Gundog training without e-collars

Gundog training without e-collars

e-collars, guns

Proffessionals?