Training a big running pointer

elkhuntingfool · Post by **elkhuntingfool** » Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:33 pm

I've been working with my pointer on birds - but on a check cord and working him close - but not forcing it - but now it's time to let the boy loose. His breeding is for horseback hunting/trials - neither of which I want to do. But...my question is what should I expect from him? He does hold point - but I've been pretty close to him and have been able to whoa him but he does that on his own as well. If he's out of my visual range what should I expect from him? How do I keep him from running into the next county

Thanks!

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:36 am

Do you have a solid recall on him? As far as slowing down a big runner, I believe we're up to forty pounds of welding cable now.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:48 am

How old is he? Does he already try and run real big?

elkhuntingfool · Post by **elkhuntingfool** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 10:33 am

He's pretty good at recall - I have an e collar on him, but like my female pointer - I only have to beep him to get his attention.

And yes he wants to run big but I have to recall him and bring him back closer - I really don't want to buy a horse to keep up with him

I don't have an astro to keep better track of him or I wouldn't worry about locating him. He's always been a big runner since a pup - his breeding is from horseback trials.

I guess what I am hoping for is that he'll hold point until I can locate him better and I assume that will come with age. He's 11 months old.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 11:06 am

Two things you can do...

First is to teach the dog to "bend" with you. Basically this is turning the dog, on command, first with the checkcord, then later with an e-collar. Once the dog learns the turn command and responds to it, you can begin to let the dog roll in the field. When it reaches YOUR comfort zone limet...turn the dog.

Enough repetitions will instill YOUR comfort zone into the dog's memory banks and they will start to operate within that zone. If the dog is a really HUGE runner, this may be more of a fight than with some other dogs, but I have done this with big running dogs with pedigrees that included dogs like Warhoop Jake, Redemption's Reward, Bonafide, Guard Rail, Stone Free, Miller's Silver Bullett...and those names were not too far down the line.

The other thing you can do is to call the dog in and if it does not turn back to you, do a 180 and go in the opposite direction. Say nothing and walk away.

I am not a big fan of drags and chains and such. They will slow a dog down temporarily, but they do nothing to modify the dog's behavior. Sooooo, eventually, when the dog gets strong enough, it will run out of sight with the drag on...not to mention what it will do with the drag off. I feel you have to get the dog to WANT to do what you want it to do. You gotta get into their head.

BTW, my dogs are NEVER let loose in a training or hunting scenario without an e-collar on. If I need it to assure compliance to a given command, they are wearing it and it is turned on. If I don't need it, nothing is lost.

About the only time I turn a dog loose without an e-collar on is at a trial.

I have always had big running dogs out of major league dogs. I make a determined effort to get the puppy to like me when they are very young. I want the pup to think the sun rises and sets on me and I am where the fun is at. I have found that if the dog likes you and wants to stay with you...it will. If it don't...it won't.

RayG

elkhuntingfool · Post by **elkhuntingfool** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 12:12 pm

Ray - thank you for the pointers. I have heard about the dragging to slow them down - but you are right - doesn't correct behavior issues. I have had Zeke since a pup and he has been in my house ever since and with me wherever I go. My female is the perfect dog - she'll get out as far as I want to let her then beep her when I no longer see her and she comes back with no issues. I'm hoping that rubs off on Zeke

live4point · Post by **live4point** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:55 am

I've seen a piece of log chain used,but it didn't work either,think it just made the dog's legs stronger so it could run bigger

Hate to say it,but don't buy a Ferrari when what you need is a good pickup truck.Good luck,and when you get sick of that big running crap,get you a nice foot hunting dog and start enjoying the hunt again.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 2:52 am

live4point wrote:I've seen a piece of log chain used,but it didn't work either,think it just made the dog's legs stronger so it could run bigger Hate to say it,but don't buy a Ferrari when what you need is a good pickup truck.Good luck,and when you get sick of that big running crap,get you a nice foot hunting dog and start enjoying the hunt again.

That is my thoughts also. I don't like to try and change a dog's natural range. If I have a dog that runs too big for me or is a boot licker, I will probably just accept the fact that he/she is not the right dog for me. Working at changing the dog's natural range is going to be frustrating for me and the dog and be no fun for either of us. JMO.

Charlie

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:15 am

live4point wrote:I've seen a piece of log chain used,but it didn't work either,think it just made the dog's legs stronger so it could run bigger Hate to say it,but don't buy a Ferrari when what you need is a good pickup truck.Good luck,and when you get sick of that big running crap,get you a nice foot hunting dog and start enjoying the hunt again.

I absolutely do not buy into that. I have been hunting successfully behind BIG running dogs for more than fifty years now. I can take a dog that can and does run a borderline horseback All AGE race, and I mean American Field All AGE, and hunt that dog successfully on a forty acre preserve field. No big deal. That is what a bird dog does...hunt birds...for the hunter. A good bird dog opens up when it needs to and closes down when it needs to. It has what it takes to do whatever it must do to find birds.

I has a lot more to do with the dog's willingness to do what you want than anything else. If the only way a dog gets to wrap its gums around a bird is to do it your way...that is what a real bird dog will do. If that means closing down and hunting the cover, the dog that lives and breathes to find birds will do that too.

I have seen it myself, far too many times, with far too many dogs for it to be an accident.

Let's face it...most folks do not want to have to put in the time and effort it takes to bring a high powered dog around to the way you want it to hunt. A fair number do not have the patience or the skill or the facilities to do it themselves. But that does not mean it cannot or should not be done. This is and always has been a fact of life. Lots of folks simply do not have the time or desire to train a dog to anwhere near its potential, mostly because they have familes, jobs and a life that does not revolve around bird dogs. That does not mean it cannot be done, especially with the tools we have at our disposal nowadays.

In my opinion, if you have a dog that cannot run a horseback shooting dog ground application one weekend and be taken hunting on foot the next weekend...or vice versa... that ain't a complete dog. The best of them CAN do just exactly that. Heck...mine are FAR from the best and they can do that.

Maybe part of it is that I am a crusty old fart with waaaaay too much time on my hands. Dunno.

RayG

straightup1 · Post by **straightup1** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:18 am

Get him to turn and recall without fail. Get him steady on his birds and then hunt the heck out of him. So long as the dog is hunting for you, his range shouldn't be of concern in my opinion. he's awfully young at 11 months so be patient and consistent so you don't create an outlaw.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:32 am

I like to drop a lot of birds and get em honest on birds young, teaches them birds are found if they stay with you, that will translate as they get older. Like Ray said, you want the sun to rise and set on you and having pups find birds while with you goes a long way to that end.

Make a partner not a muscle bound rebel

elkhuntingfool · Post by **elkhuntingfool** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:16 am

live4point wrote:Good luck,and when you get sick of that big running crap,get you a nice foot hunting dog and start enjoying the hunt again.

Never said I don't enjoy hunting behind him - just need to rein him in a bit. Nothing better than seeing my female sitting on a bird 300 yards away and knowing that she will sit until I get to her. My other pointer is a big running dog as well and has found me plenty of birds so no need for a foot hunting dog for me when I already have 2 of them. That being said - wouldn't mind a lab again - wife might - the lab sized lawn bombs are something that she doesn't appreciate

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:49 am

Wow that post is up there for an ignorant award Live4point. :roll:

live4point · Post by **live4point** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:15 am

birddogger wrote:
live4point wrote:I've seen a piece of log chain used,but it didn't work either,think it just made the dog's legs stronger so it could run bigger Hate to say it,but don't buy a Ferrari when what you need is a good pickup truck.Good luck,and when you get sick of that big running crap,get you a nice foot hunting dog and start enjoying the hunt again.
That is my thoughts also. I don't like to try and change a dog's natural range. If I have a dog that runs too big for me or is a boot licker, I will probably just accept the fact that he/she is not the right dog for me. Working at changing the dog's natural range is going to be frustrating for me and the dog and be no fun for either of us. JMO.

Charlie

Man this big running dog crowd can be pretty touchy.They are also the ones out there yelling and whistling to try and keep their dogs in range.I've seen it a thousand times,makes it sound like a dang circus out there.Those pen raised birds may hold for the big running dogs point while your 300 yds back and running to your point,but our wild pheasant wont,they will flip your big running dog off and be a mile away before you can run to a point.I'm glad they like those big runners though,actually I wish everybody liked them,they don't hurt the bird numbers much

elkhuntingfool · Post by **elkhuntingfool** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:56 pm

I beg to differ on the wild phez not holding - been hunting behind big running dogs for quite some time and if the dogs is good - then the birds will hold. Doesn't matter if you're 300 yards or 30 yards - if the dog doesn't rush the birds, the birds will hold.

live4point · Post by **live4point** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:30 pm

Like I said before,your right,I think everybody else ought to have one of those big running dogs,or better yet get 2 of them to hunt together!

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:43 pm

Makes me wonder how Ive been out on the prairie with my AA bred run offs then go back and guide on an eastern preserve with these same rebels.....they must be special huh (NOT).

Post by **slistoe** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:43 pm

One thing I have learned on these forums over the years is that guys like live4point are best left to their own ignorant ignorance. However, for anyone else reading and wanting to actually learn something from those with decades of experience with big running dogs - they work, and work well when properly experienced and trained. If you ascribe to the "do no harm" school of birddogging a big running dog is not for you. If you aspire to the "do some good" school of birddogging and are willing to wait and work for it there is no species of bird that a bold, rangy dog cannot handle with aplomb.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:15 pm

live4point wrote:Like I said before,your right,I think everybody else ought to have one of those big running dogs,or better yet get 2 of them to hunt together!

I don't understand the flack over this....It is simply a personal preference and to be called ignorant because of it is ignorant in itself. Nobody said a big running dog couldn't adjust to the terrain they are hunting because they certainly can, but while some will adjust on their own, others have to constantly be hacked to draw them back in...I have seen both. Personally, I would rather hunt a dog or breed of dog whose natural range keeps me and the dog both happy and, BTW, I prefer a fairly big running dog....I want them out there finding birds, it will actually save me a lot of walking vs. a close working dog, but I have no desire to own a dog with extreme range. Call it ignorant if you want but it is not always going to be easy to keep a dog like this reined in.

Being a member of this forum has sure taught me how arrogant and touchy so many of these trialers are. You can't possibly be as smart or know as much about dogs if you are not in their little group. Sorry for the rant but because you prefer something different...you are ignorant?? :roll:

Post by **Sharon** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:31 pm

"I am a crusty old fart with waaaaay too much time on my hands." Quote
Now you can't be a crusty guy and "the most fun guy". ( "I want the pup to think the sun rises and sets on me and I am where the fun is at. ") . quote

Now you can't be both. Which one is it.?

PS i don't know how to keep the fight going so I lightened up.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:39 pm

Sharon wrote:"I am a crusty old fart with waaaaay too much time on my hands." Quote
Now you can't be a crusty guy and "the most fun guy". ( "I want the pup to think the sun rises and sets on me and I am where the fun is at. ") . quote

Now you can't be both. Which one is it.?

Sharon -

It very much depends on whom you ask!

Most of my dogs like me, most of the time... but I must say that I suspect their standards are not all that high.

RayG

tn red · Post by **tn red** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:41 pm

elkhuntingfool wrote:I've been working with my pointer on birds - but on a check cord and working him close - but not forcing it - but now it's time to let the boy loose. His breeding is for horseback hunting/trials - neither of which I want to do. But...my question is what should I expect from him? He does hold point - but I've been pretty close to him and have been able to whoa him but he does that on his own as well. If he's out of my visual range what should I expect from him? How do I keep him from running into the next county

Thanks!

Whats the breeding on your pup if you dont nind me askin?

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:49 pm

birddogger wrote:
live4point wrote:Like I said before,your right,I think everybody else ought to have one of those big running dogs,or better yet get 2 of them to hunt together!
I don't understand the flack over this....It is simply a personal preference and to be called ignorant because of it is ignorant in itself. Nobody said a big running dog couldn't adjust to the terrain they are hunting because they certainly can, but while some will adjust on their own, others have to constantly be hacked to draw them back in...I have seen both. Personally, I would rather hunt a dog or breed of dog whose natural range keeps me and the dog both happy and, BTW, I prefer a fairly big running dog....I want them out there finding birds, it will actually save me a lot of walking vs. a close working dog, but I have no desire to own a dog with extreme range. Call it ignorant if you want but it is not always going to be easy to keep a dog like this reined in.

Being a member of this forum has sure taught me how arrogant and touchy so many of these trialers are. You can't possibly be as smart or know as much about dogs if you are not in their little group. Sorry for the rant but because you prefer something different...you are ignorant?? :roll:

Can't agree more.

Ezzy

Post by **Sharon** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:54 pm

I won't comment much on that , but I don't think one should put down a significant percentage of their membership, who make the most informative , experienced posts that keep this forum attractive.

I believe it is much easier to rein a dog in than get one to run bigger.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:57 pm

Sharon wrote:I won't comment much on that , but I don't think one should put down a significant percentage of their membership, who make the most informative , experienced posts that keep this forum attractive.

I believe it is much easier to rein a dog in than get one to run bigger.

I agree and have seen nothing that is putting down a large percentage of our members. Just might apply to a few that need the reminder but overall it is still a few.

Ezzy

Post by **Sharon** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:01 pm

Sorry. I misunderstood.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:12 pm

Fella asked a good question and got the below in answer.
This is the comment i took exception to, maybe i shoulda kept my mouth shut but I find this kinda statement Ignorant. Sorry.

and when you get sick of that big running crap,get you a nice foot hunting dog and start enjoying the hunt again.

And i don't trial either.....cept some Nstra but eveyone tell ya those aint real trials

Post by **slistoe** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:13 pm

birddogger wrote:
live4point wrote:Like I said before,your right,I think everybody else ought to have one of those big running dogs,or better yet get 2 of them to hunt together!
I don't understand the flack over this....
Being a member of this forum has sure taught me how arrogant and touchy so many of these trialers are. You can't possibly be as smart or know as much about dogs if you are not in their little group. Sorry for the rant but because you prefer something different...you are ignorant?? :roll:

Really birddogger? You haven't been paying attention have you.

This is what is ignorant

live4point wrote:when you get sick of that big running crap

And this is the ignorance

live4point wrote: Those pen raised birds may hold for the big running dogs point while your 300 yds back and running to your point,but our wild pheasant wont,they will flip your big running dog off and be a mile away before you can run to a point.

Now I am not a trialer, but it is a stretch of the imagination to me how you could refer to someone responding to such dogmatic comments as arrogant. Methinks the kettle is the pot.

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:15 pm

Question, who threw flames first? Newton's third law, look it up.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:47 pm

and when you get sick of that big running crap,get you a nice foot hunting dog and start enjoying the hunt again.

OK, I will give you that...I must have over looked this statement and don't agree with calling a big running dog crap and can see where some may be offended by it. But I still stand by my comments.

Charlie

live4point · Post by **live4point** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:20 am

birddogger wrote:
and when you get sick of that big running crap,get you a nice foot hunting dog and start enjoying the hunt again.

OK, I will give you that...I must have over looked this statement and don't agree with calling a big running dog crap and can see where some may be offended by it. But I still stand by my comments.

Charlie

I never called anybodys dog "crap',and birdog1968 knows it,I used the word "crap' describing a behavior.I gave an honest opinion as to a dogs range,and was called ignorant for it.I dont know why you get such obnoxious remarks from some of the big running dog people,I dont know if it's a competition thing ,or a fear someone might say something that causes them to lose a sale of a dog,I really don't know,but you never see the reverse out of the guys that like to hunt closer working dogs,we don't care if someone think's our dogs hunt too close,and generally wont say a word if someone says it,because most of us wouldn't give a dime for a semi truck load of big runners,we have no use for them.If a person was to ask the question as to what to do about his dog that didn't hunt as big as he liked,I would recommend him the reverse, getting a dog that hunted a little bigger.A lot of us don't want to be "handling" a dog all during the hunt,we want a dog that, naturally,without being yelled at,whistled at,or shocked,hunts at the range we like.I have seen many a hunter,including myself,with a dog that runs too big for them,switch to a dog that hunts at a comfortable range they like and it makes for a much more enjoyable hunt for them.I've had a many a pleasurable hunt with dogs that the only time I had to communicate with them was to praise them for doing a good job.For some on this forum,if you make any kind of comment about not liking a big running dogs range, you are ignorant,don't know a thing about dogs,don't know how to "handle" a dog and on and on.I don't know how in the world I managed to get all those good ole bird dogs trained and had so many good hunts over the years without all their expertice,but somehow I managed-Remember,this is called the GUNDOG forum,not the Field Trial forum.

tn red · Post by **tn red** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:01 am

live4point wrote:I've seen a piece of log chain used,but it didn't work either,think it just made the dog's legs stronger so it could run bigger Hate to say it,but don't buy a Ferrari when what you need is a good pickup truck.Good luck,and when you get sick of that big running crap,get you a nice foot hunting dog and start enjoying the hunt again.

Thanks for the great answer

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:48 am

live4point wrote:
birddogger wrote:
and when you get sick of that big running crap,get you a nice foot hunting dog and start enjoying the hunt again.

OK, I will give you that...I must have over looked this statement and don't agree with calling a big running dog crap and can see where some may be offended by it. But I still stand by my comments. Charlie
Allow me to examine the response by live4point:

I never called anybodys dog "crap',and birdog1968 knows it,

YES YOU DID. READ WHAT YOU WROTE. The meaning of the phrase "Big running crap" is pretty plain and clear.

I used the word "crap' describing a behavior.I gave an honest opinion as to a dogs range,and was called ignorant for it.

AS WELL YOU SHOULD BE. IT WAS RUDE AND IGNORANT.

I dont know why you get such obnoxious remarks from some of the big running dog people,I dont know if it's a competition thing ,or a fear someone might say something that causes them to lose a sale of a dog,I really don't know,but you never see the reverse out of the guys that like to hunt closer working dogs,we don't care if someone think's our dogs hunt too close,and generally wont say a word if someone says it,because most of us wouldn't give a dime for a semi truck load of big runners,we have no use for them.

NEVER??? REALLY. The above does not sound like NEVER. Funny how obnoxious statements seem to engender obnoxious responses, isn't it??

If a person was to ask the question as to what to do about his dog that didn't hunt as big as he liked,I would recommend him the reverse, getting a dog that hunted a little bigger.A lot of us don't want to be "handling" a dog all during the hunt,we want a dog that, naturally,without being yelled at,whistled at,or shocked,hunts at the range we like.I have seen many a hunter,including myself,with a dog that runs too big for them,switch to a dog that hunts at a comfortable range they like and it makes for a much more enjoyable hunt for them.

I looked and looked and nowhere could I find where you were appointed spokesman for a group of Gundog forum members who prefer close working dogs.
Your opinons are your own. Solely your own. It is dishonest to claim to represent anyone else, much less "A lot of us"...whatever that means. yYou are out there on that limb...all by yourself.

I've had a many a pleasurable hunt with dogs that the only time I had to communicate with them was to praise them for doing a good job.

Funny you should mention this...SO HAVE I and I suspect...so have a lot of folks on this board, irrespective of what "kind" of dog they hunt behind.

For some on this forum,if you make any kind of comment about not liking a big running dogs range, you are ignorant,don't know a thing about dogs,don't know how to "handle" a dog and on and on.

For some on this forum...The above seems to be...unfortunately...too true.

I don't know how in the world I managed to get all those good ole bird dogs trained and had so many good hunts over the years without all their expertice,but somehow I managed-

That, again, appears to be one man's opinon. It would seem that we only have your word for that and I for one am not sure what that is worth given the above comments.

Remember,this is called the GUNDOG forum,not the Field Trial forum.

Remember ... to be a trial dog, it has to be a bird dog first.

Have a nice day.

RayG

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:00 am

Sharon -

Is that crusty enough for you??

Gotta go work some of my big running dogs. I'll be on foot, BTW. When one of them goes on point I might call to them and tell the dog "I'M COMIN' DAWG"...

RayG

Post by **Sharon** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:57 am

ROFLMBO.... No I'm sorry that is not crusty. That is just a well written rebuttal.

Post by **jcbuttry8** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:02 am

I think the biggest problem is that most people that see big running dogs at trials never see them on wild birds. A big running dog will only run big enough to get into birds. If you trial and the birds are a half a mile away the dog will run natural to it's breeding. If you are out in crp grass full of pheasant that big running dog turns into a foot dog. Most of these dogs run til they hit birds. I used to have a GSP out of rawhide's clown. 900 yards on open quail in OK was nothing. Put him in crp during pheasant season and he never broke a 100 yards. Think 1968 was just getting the point across that if you aren't exactly sure of what your talking about leave it to those who know.

If I ask for help with my dog, being told to get rid of it is not a response I expect to here.

Jmo

Joe

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:56 am

Come on, folks. There is a living, breathing person at the other end of the wire. Please think before hitting the Submit button. Think about what you really know versus what is opinion and what is simply preference.

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:05 am

elkhuntingfool wrote:His breeding is for horseback hunting/trials - neither of which I want to do. But...my question is what should I expect from him? He does hold point - but I've been pretty close to him and have been able to whoa him but he does that on his own as well. If he's out of my visual range what should I expect from him? How do I keep him from running into the next county

It sounds like you have never ran him yet, so it may not be as big of a deal as you think. Just because a dog comes from horseback trial stock does not mean it will be un-huntable from foot. In fact it's quite the opposite and there is a huge difference between big running dogs and run offs or self hunters.

If the dog does end up not hunting a comfortable range for you just continue to try to sell him. I personally like the way he is bred and your asking a fair price for him.

Best of Luck

live4point · Post by **live4point** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:06 pm

Alot of the so called adjusting to cover,is not adjusting to cover at all,it's the cover adjusting the dog.Just like you and I can't run through chest high grass or the timber like we can open ground ,neither can a dog,put them in chest high grass and a close working dog gets closer yet,and a big running dog will hunt closer.If it works out that the bigger runner is at a range in the heavy stuff that works for the hunter and gets the job done theres not a thing wrong with that,but when that same dog starts hunting fencerows of cut grain fields that same dog is gonna go like a streak,if that's what a guy likes,then no problem,but thats when they may be hunting way too big for the next guy.I don't know how you argue that a person is better off with a dog that naturally hunts at the range they like,I think some just like to argue.At least my setter doesn't think I'm ignorant!

Wenaha · Post by **Wenaha** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:45 pm

elkhuntingfool wrote:I've been working with my pointer on birds - but on a check cord and working him close - but not forcing it - but now it's time to let the boy loose. His breeding is for horseback hunting/trials - neither of which I want to do. But...my question is what should I expect from him? He does hold point - but I've been pretty close to him and have been able to whoa him but he does that on his own as well. If he's out of my visual range what should I expect from him? How do I keep him from running into the next county

Thanks!

His breeding may, or may not, result in a dog that naturally wants to run big.

You don't say how old the pup is. You don't say whether you have taken him on walks off leash as a puppy. If he has NEVER been in the field without you holding the check cord you will not know what he will do when he is released. Most dogs will go for a run when they realize they are no longer restrained by the CC. If you are really worried, put an Astro around his neck.

If the dog is attached to you and likes you, and responds to commands, then run him. The only way to know is to run the dog. You might want to put a short check cord on him and turn him loose where you have set up a situation with birds that he will find soon after release. They will stop him closer to you. If he points and you can flush a bird and shoot it for him, this may help him understand what he is doing - hunting with you.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:08 pm

live4point wrote:Alot of the so called adjusting to cover,is not adjusting to cover at all,it's the cover adjusting the dog.Just like you and I can't run through chest high grass or the timber like we can open ground ,neither can a dog,put them in chest high grass and a close working dog gets closer yet,and a big running dog will hunt closer.If it works out that the bigger runner is at a range in the heavy stuff that works for the hunter and gets the job done theres not a thing wrong with that,but when that same dog starts hunting fencerows of cut grain fields that same dog is gonna go like a streak,if that's what a guy likes,then no problem,but thats when they may be hunting way too big for the next guy.I don't know how you argue that a person is better off with a dog that naturally hunts at the range they like,I think some just like to argue.At least my setter doesn't think I'm ignorant!

Our dogs seem to love us, no matter what we write or type. Perhaps that is because they cannot read!!

Anyway, I will grant you that a dog cannot run as effortlessly in chest high grass as it can in open pasture land. However, if the dog does not WANT to stay with you or hunt for you...none of that matters at all. A dog can get gone in chest high grass a lot quicker than a dog in open terrain if that is what they want to do.

I am not arguing that a person is or is not better off with a dog that naturally hunts at the range the hunter likes. I will, however, argue that what one hunter likes is not necessarily what another hunter likes. Moreover, what one hunter likes TODAY, in the terrain and cover they find themselves TODAY...may be remarkably different from what that same one hunter will like TOMORROW when they are hunting different terrain, different game, etc.

I will argue that a good birddog has to have an elastic range which will expand or contract depending on the terrain, the game being sought AND the needs and wants of the hunter. It HAS to be that way.

Otherwise, we would have to have a kennel full of different dogs for each different type of hunting we did and each different kind of terrain we hunted in.

One size does not fit all. One type is not the right type for every circumstance. However, to use the Ferrari versus pickup analogy mentioned earlier...you CAN drive to the store in a Ferrari, you can take your dog hunting in a Ferrari and if you absolutely have to...you can strap a bale of hay to the roof and bring it home. It might not be the easiest thing in the world to do, but you CAN do it. You simply cannot, however, run a Grand Prix road course at any decent level of speed, in a pickup truck. If you try you will have a wreck.

As was also said, it is far easier to bring a dog in than it is to push one out.

RayG

live4point · Post by **live4point** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 2:21 pm

RayG wrote,
However, to use the Ferrari versus pickup analogy mentioned earlier...you CAN drive to the store in a Ferrari, you can take your dog hunting in a Ferrari and if you absolutely have to...you can strap a bale of hay to the roof and bring it home. It might not be the easiest thing in the world to do, but you CAN do it. You simply cannot, however, run a Grand Prix road course at any decent level of speed, in a pickup truck. If you try you will have a wreck.

I didn't buy my truck or my bird dog to race with.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 2:34 pm

live4point wrote:I think some just like to argue.At least my setter doesn't think I'm ignorant!

Look within (we're not the ones on a close working dog thread bashing/argueing), and maybe your dog has no basis for comparison.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 2:42 pm

Charlie,
You are one of the last bastions of common sense, surely you see how things can go awry when this is the first statement made in a thread when someone asks a legitimate question?

I've seen a piece of log chain used,but it didn't work either,think it just made the dog's legs stronger so it could run bigger Hate to say it,but don't buy a Ferrari when what you need is a good pickup truck.Good luck,and when you get sick of that big running crap,get you a nice foot hunting dog and start enjoying the hunt again.

I have dogs that that run a variety of range and I enjoy them all, I also handle them all. I think those who provide advice based on experience rather than " I have seen" or "my friend" have a hard time dealing with those that think the way to make a point is to become increasingly louder. These same folks latch on to buzz phrases like "i ain't politically correct" and wear them as a badge of honor when what they really mean is "I apologize for my poor communication skills..."

I believe that there is terrain,situation, and hunting style better suited for this breed or that, and maybe even a line within the breed...but that wasn't the question was it?

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 3:15 pm

...and I need another thing clarified, 1968 eludes to a point that is confounding me. He rightfully points out that this is a thread seeking advice on a potentially big running dog, it went sideways when somebody said, "you don't need that" like they were your mother in law tagging along on a shopping trip for a big screen TV. Where are the threads where someone says "my hunting dog, NAVHDA dog, short running dog is doing X, and the field trial all age community that is being maligned as myopic chimes in and says, "well your solution is simple, you nee a puppy out of Strut."

I would start a new thread for this but I have no idea how to present it...I hunt and trial and I couldn't give a hoot what others do with their dogs. I starve for information from the experienced...I have never attended a NAVHDA event in my life, but read every word from those who are in that circle. They are trainers to the highest degree, if their dogs can't win an AA event I don't care...I have never opened a thread when someone talked about a close running dog and felt compelled to lecture them on the ills of running it for chukar in the high desert...and frankly, I cannot find where others are doing it either. The arguments start when folks poke their noses into the manner by which others choose to run their dogs...doesn't it? Why do those that don't want a big running dog, or want to field trial care to debate the issues pertaining to those venues?

Garrison · Post by **Garrison** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 4:31 pm

live4point wrote:I never called anybodys dog "crap',and birdog1968 knows it,I used the word "crap' describing a behavior.I gave an honest opinion as to a dogs range,and was called ignorant for it.I dont know why you get such obnoxious remarks from some of the big running dog people,I dont know if it's a competition thing ,or a fear someone might say something that causes them to lose a sale of a dog,I really don't know,but you never see the reverse out of the guys that like to hunt closer working dogs,we don't care if someone think's our dogs hunt too close,and generally wont say a word if someone says it,because most of us wouldn't give a dime for a semi truck load of big runners,we have no use for them.If a person was to ask the question as to what to do about his dog that didn't hunt as big as he liked,I would recommend him the reverse, getting a dog that hunted a little bigger.A lot of us don't want to be "handling" a dog all during the hunt,we want a dog that, naturally,without being yelled at,whistled at,or shocked,hunts at the range we like.I have seen many a hunter,including myself,with a dog that runs too big for them,switch to a dog that hunts at a comfortable range they like and it makes for a much more enjoyable hunt for them.I've had a many a pleasurable hunt with dogs that the only time I had to communicate with them was to praise them for doing a good job.For some on this forum,if you make any kind of comment about not liking a big running dogs range, you are ignorant,don't know a thing about dogs,don't know how to "handle" a dog and on and on.I don't know how in the world I managed to get all those good ole bird dogs trained and had so many good hunts over the years without all their expertice,but somehow I managed-Remember,this is called the GUNDOG forum,not the Field Trial forum.

I think it may have a whole lot more to do with the delivery of your opinion and less to do with your opinion of what is a functional range for you personally.

The dog is already his and I suspect that plenty of time and care has been put into him if he is on a forum asking for advice about his particular situation. You got the wrong dog might as well take Ol yeller back to the wood pile because big running dogs are worthless attitude is probably what stirred the pot. But I am sure that was your intention to begin with.

BTW everybody already knows that medium range dogs are the only way to fill a game bag, and almost forgot to ask are GSP better than Pointers, what is the best dog food and who are you voting for.

Post by **Sharon** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 4:41 pm

RayGubernat wrote:Two things you can do...

First is to teach the dog to "bend" with you. Basically this is turning the dog, on command, first with the checkcord, then later with an e-collar. Once the dog learns the turn command and responds to it, you can begin to let the dog roll in the field. When it reaches YOUR comfort zone limet...turn the dog.

Enough repetitions will instill YOUR comfort zone into the dog's memory banks and they will start to operate within that zone. If the dog is a really HUGE runner, this may be more of a fight than with some other dogs, but I have done this with big running dogs with pedigrees that included dogs like Warhoop Jake, Redemption's Reward, Bonafide, Guard Rail, Stone Free, Miller's Silver Bullett...and those names were not too far down the line.

The other thing you can do is to call the dog in and if it does not turn back to you, do a 180 and go in the opposite direction. Say nothing and walk away.

I am not a big fan of drags and chains and such. They will slow a dog down temporarily, but they do nothing to modify the dog's behavior. Sooooo, eventually, when the dog gets strong enough, it will run out of sight with the drag on...not to mention what it will do with the drag off. I feel you have to get the dog to WANT to do what you want it to do. You gotta get into their head.

BTW, my dogs are NEVER let loose in a training or hunting scenario without an e-collar on. If I need it to assure compliance to a given command, they are wearing it and it is turned on. If I don't need it, nothing is lost.

About the only time I turn a dog loose without an e-collar on is at a trial.

I have always had big running dogs out of major league dogs. I make a determined effort to get the puppy to like me when they are very young. I want the pup to think the sun rises and sets on me and I am where the fun is at. I have found that if the dog likes you and wants to stay with you...it will. If it don't...it won't.

RayG

After reading through all the "words" this post actually gives the questioner something to run with.... bending a dog . Didn't want it to get lost in the "word storm".

Post by **slistoe** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 4:45 pm

Sharon wrote:
RayGubernat wrote:Two things you can do...

First is to teach the dog to "bend" with you. Basically this is turning the dog, on command, first with the checkcord, then later with an e-collar. Once the dog learns the turn command and responds to it, you can begin to let the dog roll in the field. When it reaches YOUR comfort zone limet...turn the dog.

Enough repetitions will instill YOUR comfort zone into the dog's memory banks and they will start to operate within that zone. If the dog is a really HUGE runner, this may be more of a fight than with some other dogs, but I have done this with big running dogs with pedigrees that included dogs like Warhoop Jake, Redemption's Reward, Bonafide, Guard Rail, Stone Free, Miller's Silver Bullett...and those names were not too far down the line.

The other thing you can do is to call the dog in and if it does not turn back to you, do a 180 and go in the opposite direction. Say nothing and walk away.

I am not a big fan of drags and chains and such. They will slow a dog down temporarily, but they do nothing to modify the dog's behavior. Sooooo, eventually, when the dog gets strong enough, it will run out of sight with the drag on...not to mention what it will do with the drag off. I feel you have to get the dog to WANT to do what you want it to do. You gotta get into their head.

BTW, my dogs are NEVER let loose in a training or hunting scenario without an e-collar on. If I need it to assure compliance to a given command, they are wearing it and it is turned on. If I don't need it, nothing is lost.

About the only time I turn a dog loose without an e-collar on is at a trial.

I have always had big running dogs out of major league dogs. I make a determined effort to get the puppy to like me when they are very young. I want the pup to think the sun rises and sets on me and I am where the fun is at. I have found that if the dog likes you and wants to stay with you...it will. If it don't...it won't.

RayG

After reading through all the "words" this post actually gives the questioner something to run with.... bending a dog . Didn't want it to get lost in the "word storm".

Yeah, I could have typed up something for the original question but unless you get something weighed in before Ray does there is usually no point to it.

Post by **Sharon** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 4:48 pm

LOL Admirable isn't it.? Well you could always start a fight if you don't have anything else to say. Aren't you one of those trialing kind of guys.

elkhuntingfool · Post by **elkhuntingfool** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 4:50 pm

Wow - didn't realize with my post that it would ruffle the feathers of so many and things to get out of hand. Ask a simple question - get complicated, flame throwing responses - but anyhow:

tn red wrote:

Whats the breeding on your pup if you dont nind me askin?

Sire pedigree - http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=1477

Dam pedigree http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=1851

Ron R wrote: It sounds like you have never ran him yet, so it may not be as big of a deal as you think. Just because a dog comes from horseback trial stock does not mean it will be un-huntable from foot. In fact it's quite the opposite and there is a huge difference between big running dogs and run offs or self hunters.

I've had him out and he runs big but isn't ready to run big on his own because he doesn't hold point long enough for me to catch up to him. I wish thru osmosis that he would learn to hold point from my female