Training a big running pointer

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 4:55 pm

Well...it is fair to say that this dog was not bred with bootlickin' in mind

Post by **slistoe** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 4:58 pm

Sharon wrote:LOL Admirable isn't it.? Well you could always start a fight if you don't have anything else to say. Aren't you one of those trialing kind of guys.

No, just a lowly foothunter that got sucked into the popular press as an impressionable young hunter having read "Big Red". Then I stumbled upon the fact that my class foot hunting dog that everyone described as a "once in a lifetime dog" was really rather commonplace - a Shooting Dog which is begat from an All Age Dog. So I ran my foot hunting dogs in horseback trials for quite a number of years - even won once in awhile. I don't own an adult dog that would be competitive right now and am I ever feeling it this hunting season. My feet are tired and my game bag is thin.

Garrison · Post by **Garrison** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:16 pm

Chukar12 wrote:Well...it is fair to say that this dog was not bred with bootlickin' in mind

Yup, looks like you got stuck with a real turd with this one. Judging by his lineage your dog is sure to be untrainable. For a small re-homing fee I will take him off your hands and let him live out the rest of his days.

elkhuntingfool · Post by **elkhuntingfool** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:31 pm

Chukar12 wrote:Well...it is fair to say that this dog was not bred with bootlickin' in mind

If your boots are a mile a way - then yes he'll lick em

"bleep" good dog - fun to have around and tons of energy. Need to keep working him to turn with me - that's always the hard part with him - nose is big and he is birdy. Point is good. Need to work him on pigeons in my launcher and hope he keeps from busting

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:56 pm

live4point wrote:I didn't buy my truck or my bird dog to race with.

live4point -

I didn't either. HOWEVER, I must confess that, every once in a while when the light turns green and there ain't no traffic or cops around, I will occasionally put the pedal to the metal and sqeal out a little itty bitty patch. WHY?? Because I can.

Same with bird dogs. I must confess that I occasionally hit the whistle and enjoy watching my dog go over the hill and then hit the whistle again and watch him go over the NEXT hill. WHY?? Because HE can.

Different strokes for different folks.

RayG

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:00 pm

Chukar12 wrote:Charlie,
You are one of the last bastions of common sense, surely you see how things can go awry when this is the first statement made in a thread when someone asks a legitimate question?

I've seen a piece of log chain used,but it didn't work either,think it just made the dog's legs stronger so it could run bigger Hate to say it,but don't buy a Ferrari when what you need is a good pickup truck.Good luck,and when you get sick of that big running crap,get you a nice foot hunting dog and start enjoying the hunt again.
I have dogs that that run a variety of range and I enjoy them all, I also handle them all. I think those who provide advice based on experience rather than " I have seen" or "my friend" have a hard time dealing with those that think the way to make a point is to become increasingly louder. These same folks latch on to buzz phrases like "i ain't politically correct" and wear them as a badge of honor when what they really mean is "I apologize for my poor communication skills..."

I believe that there is terrain,situation, and hunting style better suited for this breed or that, and maybe even a line within the breed...but that wasn't the question was it?

You are correct and I just want to clarify what I was thinking when I made my comments. First of all, my intentions were not to offend or get into a fight and when I saw the word "ignorant", I thought they were referring to the idea that a person may be better off with a dog he/she is comfortable with rather than trying to make a dog into something that they were not bred for, which is not ignorant....I simply misunderstood what was being called ignorant. I have dogs that adjust to the cover being hunted, but if a person is wanting a dog that won't run big and ends up with a big running dog, he/she is probably never going to be happy with that dog. That was really the only point I was trying to make and you are right that wasn't the question but I thought it was relative.

Charlie

tn red · Post by **tn red** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:04 pm

I think you will have a real bird finder on your hands.His daddy has pointed more wild birds than most dogs ever see .I see nothing on the bottom side to idicate a rouge next county kind of dog right opposite. Im sure you will be surpised at his willingness to go with you ,great breeding for killing a BUNCH of birds.Good luck & keep us updated

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:14 pm

[quote]I've had him out and he runs big but isn't ready to run big on his own because he doesn't hold point long enough for me to catch up to him. I wish thru osmosis that he would learn to hold point from my female elkhuntingfool
You have gotten some good tips that can help, but I think a lot of it will come from experience and being staunch will also come with experience and a good training program, but I don't think he will learn it from the female.

Good luck and enjoy your dog,
Charlie

elkhuntingfool · Post by **elkhuntingfool** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:55 pm

I will have to see if I can borrow a friend's ASTRO and let him run and see what happens. Hopefully I can get some pictures of him and I'll post them - hopefully I won't have to use my zoom lens to take his pic

Post by **jcbuttry8** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:01 pm

Well first off lets look at the trials that seem to be a big hatred on this here gundog forum. Your pup is 11 mos old. If you were trialing him, he would be good in the puppy trials for a few more months which would mean that he doesn't even have to crack a point. If he was a derby dog, he would only have to flash a point up until he was 2. Yes, you want more out of him. Your expectations are not high, but you still have to use a solid approach.

It is called yard work. It would be nice to do it in the field but even the owners of the gundogs still have to do it in the yard. You still have to check cord work. There are plenty of great big running pointers out there that will hold for a long time waiting for their owner to get there, and yes the birds will still be there. They got that through yard work. There are several questions that you asked here. you started with the dog running big and we have swerved into the dog flash pointing. You cannot leave the pointing training up to the female. We all wished that worked. The pro trainers would be in heaven.

I along with most others, probably including yourself want to train your own dog. I have never trained a trial dog. I am going to give it a shot but if I cannot get it done or feel that I am hurting her training, I will be the first to send her to someone that has the know how and the ability to get her where I need her. There is nothing wrong with admitting you cannot do this job. There are several people on this site that whether they will admit it or not own and trial dogs in one fashion or another that paid to get there dog trained. Even some that bought the finished product. Those dogs still trial, and hunt and they are handled by the owners.

My best advise to you is, find a club near you or a trainer in your area that will work with you and your dog. It is much cheaper in some cases than sending the dog away. for months, and you along with your dog get the training you both want and deserve. It is also not a bad thing to admit you have a dog that is to big for you, but that dog has been with you. You are his life and deep down inside he wants to please you. It is your responsibility to make that happen however you have to.

I wish you the best of luck, but you need to sit down and really consider whether or not this is to much of a task for you to handle. If so, there are some great names of trainers out there that can help you get where you want. most anyone on this site can point you in the right direction,

Joe

live4point · Post by **live4point** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:30 am

Why is it that the #1 dog of choice,#1 dog most entered,and #1 winner,far more than all other dogs combined of horseback field trials,is not the prefered dog of choice of foot hunting trials,or by hunters all over the US in any area other than strictly bobwhite country, in the same numbers? Could it be a matter of RANGE?,or do all these foot hunting trialers and experienced hunters not know how to "handle" a dog? In a vast majority of the US,not only are the big running dogs not as favored,they are a minority.It seems that besides myself,the majority of hunters all over our country know how to have a dog that hunts at the range they want and don't have to handle all the time.It even seems that when you look at facts,some of these big running dog people that are the same ones that make nasty remarks,don't seem to know so much more about dogs at all,it seems the exact opposite is true.But hey,don't take my word for it,look it up yourself.Gun dog central has a nice classifieds section that list dogs for sale state by state.Look up what dogs are favored in areas where hunters need closer working dogs and see what you find

.

tn red · Post by **tn red** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:40 am

live4point wrote:Why is it that the #1 dog of choice,#1 dog most entered,and #1 winner,far more than all other dogs combined of horseback field trials,is not the prefered dog of choice of foot hunting trials,or by hunters all over the US in any area other than strictly bobwhite country, in the same numbers? Could it be a matter of RANGE?,or do all these foot hunting trialers and experienced hunters not know how to "handle" a dog? In a vast majority of the US,not only are the big running dogs not as favored,they are a minority.It seems that besides myself,the majority of hunters all over our country know how to have a dog that hunts at the range they want and don't have to handle all the time.It even seems that when you look at facts,some of these big running dog people that are the same ones that make nasty remarks,don't seem to know so much more about dogs at all,it seems the exact opposite is true.But hey,don't take my word for it,look it up yourself.Gun dog central has a nice classifieds section that list dogs for sale state by state.Look up what dogs are favored in areas where hunters need closer working dogs and see what you find .

Seems like this dog has alot of proven Elhew blood on the sire side a lot of AKC walking trial on the bottom side. Why do you think the best thing to to is get rid of it if the guy wants a hunting dog ?

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:36 am

None of us know anything , I must have some kinda super dogs

, that range on the prairie off horse or 4 wheeler, but close up to 100yrd(or less) dogs off foot on the priaire and find the elusive hard to hunt phez :roll: , go east and hunt preserve ground and they will stay in a 40 acre field (and its not cover that slows them)......they even come inside and are as gentle as lambs.

I should start breeding and marketing my amazing one of a kind pointers cause the world has never seen pointers do this

I'm gonna be a millionaire :roll:

Pointers get a bad rap, and you live4point are trying to continue that ill informed, lack of real experienced sterotype.....
Someone or something must have given you such a bad taste for what others decide to own?
Be honest, where did you get your bias????

I sir, if i cared to share a field with such a closed minded person would challange you to a phez dual (I'm out here now, what state do you live and hunt????)....but life is too short to spend time afield with someone so inclined as yourself and to be honest I could care less what silly ill informed nonsense you believe...I do have a problem tho with you trying to spread falsehoods about dogs that do exactly what you say they can't...enjoy your dogs and I will enjoy mine.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:47 am

Would yu all like to get back to the original question or should we just lock this thread? It is up to you.

Ezzy

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:42 am

FWIW, I propose the Op start a new thread and this one be locked, then we can have the discussion that began here and was derailed, if the next thread is derailed then we know where the problem originates....

I find it suspicious that this thread was derailed in the mannner it was shortly after a thread entiled "are you tired of hunting for your dog" trying to sell dogs with an inflammatory undertone.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:48 am

I think he got his key answer from Ray, condition the dog to bend. We know the dog is 11 months and its training is in its early stages. The original poster did ask what to expect as well, I think that he can expect the dog to bump and chase initially. When he decides to "break" the dog, he will need to bring it back into check cord control and go through a number of repititions until he can get some consistency. Otherwise...I think its fair to say the dog will take a couple of seasons to mature

Dirtysteve · Post by **Dirtysteve** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:32 am

EHF
I know your dogs dam very, very well. She has spent many months at my house. She is a very good bird dog and was very easy to break and I have killed many birds over her before her surgery.
The sire (Ben) was broke on wild birds and is hunted harder than most others dogs on here. I don't think Ben has ever seen a planted bird other than a trial. Favor would know better than me though.
Don't listen to the big running dog vs boot licker debate, Nobody ever wins and most guys that like shorter ranging dogs are mainly pheasant hunters, a bird we very rarely have in this state.

Ray gave you the best advice on here.

You should get ahold of me and come down and run a few times.
I will help you with what I can.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:50 am

live4point -

Here we go again...you don't give up with your silly nonsense do you??

You said-

"Why is it that the #1 dog of choice,#1 dog most entered,and #1 winner,far more than all other dogs combined of horseback field trials,is not the prefered dog of choice of foot hunting trials,or by hunters all over the US in any area other than strictly bobwhite country, in the same numbers? "

I call BS. Where is your data to support your uninformed personal opinion(because that is all that it is) that there is one breed that is the dog of choice for field trials?? Lat time I looked there were a ton of Brittanys entered in trials and a ton of GSP's. There are a good number of pointers and setters that are trialed as well, but I would not be so bold as to say any of those breeds is the #1 choice of anyone. Pointers USED TO BE the breed of dog most ofren found in field trials. With the tremendous increase in the number and the level of attendance at of AKC trials, the Brittany or the GSP might very well now be the breed of dog with the largest number of field trial dogs. I don't know. However, I would be willing to bet that, taken together, the number of Brittanys and GSP's that are field trialed surpasses the number of pointers that are trialed today.

Further, where is your data to support your similarly uninformed personal opinion about which breed of dog hunters prefer. Or are you presuming now to speak for all hunters??

You said:

"Could it be a matter of RANGE?,"

It is NEVER a matter of just range. To focus on how distant a dog is from the hunter is far too simplistic. It is a matter of ground application, which includes, among other things, the intelligent searching of the available cover, the type and amount of said cover, the type of terrain and yes, the distance from the hunter. Anyone who has more than a superficial understanding of the subject knows that.

your next GEM...

"or do all these foot hunting trialers and experienced hunters not know how to "handle" a dog?"

Now you seem to be taking potshots at walking field trialers and experienced hunters. You're on your own with that one.

You stated:

In a vast majority of the US,not only are the big running dogs not as favored,they are a minority.

Once again...I want to see your data. I do not believe you have even travelled , the "vast majority" of the hunting destinations in the US, much less conducted any kind of survey except in your own mind.

The last time I looked...the "vast majority of the US is cpomprised of that portion of land between the Appalachins and the Rockies. That includes places like Montana,North and South Dakota, Colorado,Kansas, Wyoming, Nevada, Utah, Arizona, New Mexico, Oklahome and, oh yeah, Texas. A dog that has a wide ground application would seem to me, to be a logical choice in such terrain, but that is only my personal opinon.

You said:

"It seems that besides myself,the majority of hunters all over our country know how to have a dog that hunts at the range they want and don't have to handle all the time."

Here you go again speaking for the majority of hunters all over our country. I want to know who died and left you in charge??

You then said:

It even seems that when you look at facts,some of these big running dog people that are the same ones that make nasty remarks,don't seem to know so much more about dogs at all,it seems the exact opposite is true.

What facts are you talking about?? And since you brought it up, it seems to me that the only nasty remarks are coming, pretty much, from your little corner of the internet.

Are we done now? I certainly hope so. You are of course, free to continue attempting to speak for all hunters across the US. I will, of course continue to assist you in your search for truth. :roll: :roll:

RayG

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:21 pm

I agree with DirtySteve, it seems that "pheasants" are always the measuring stick out here. I can promise you the country we hunt out here makes a 100 yard dog look small. He has the perfect breeding for what we hunt out here, keep your ditch parrots! I will take my chukars and big running dogs everyday of the week! And they crazy thing is they find birds.... WTF and then we shoot at them. Crazy process.

elkhuntingfool · Post by **elkhuntingfool** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:44 pm

Elkhunter wrote:I agree with DirtySteve, it seems that "pheasants" are always the measuring stick out here. I can promise you the country we hunt out here makes a 100 yard dog look small. He has the perfect breeding for what we hunt out here, keep your ditch parrots! I will take my chukars and big running dogs everyday of the week! And they crazy thing is they find birds.... WTF and then we shoot at them. Crazy process.

What he said

I don't want a 100 yard dog - I want a big runner who will sit on birds for me until I can get there - let me shot them and then go get them for me.

I've received a lot of good advice from this post and I appreciate it - I've also seemed to open the door for too much complaining about this breed and that breed - big runner, versus boot licker, versus 100 yard dogs - which was never my intent. We all have bird dogs and none come in one breed/size fits all so why is someone in the midwest an expert on my big running dogs but has never worked with one? Dunno. I don't take my EPs out to hunt phez - have a bud who has an outstanding shorthair that is a bird finding machine with a superb nose.

Anyhow - thank you all for the advice - it was well received and for the other posts - thank you for the entertainment - was well worth the price of admission

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:57 pm

You also need to realize that he is a young dog that has not had a lot of time spent with him learning the ropes. A season of hunting birds consistently will help him learn those things you want him to, especially standing his birds. He will wear himself out chasing them and eventually point them. The west desert is full of birds this year, strap your boots on and go look for them!

Gun Dog Forum

Training a big running pointer

Re: Training a big running pointer

Re: Training a big running pointer

Re: Training a big running pointer

Re: Training a big running pointer

Re: Training a big running pointer

Re: Training a big running pointer

Re: Training a big running pointer

Re: Training a big running pointer

Re: Training a big running pointer

Re: Training a big running pointer

Re: Training a big running pointer

Re: Training a big running pointer

Re: Training a big running pointer

Re: Training a big running pointer

Re: Training a big running pointer

Re: Training a big running pointer

Re: Training a big running pointer

Re: Training a big running pointer

Re: Training a big running pointer

Re: Training a big running pointer

Re: Training a big running pointer