My GSP back from trainer malnourished?

scoelki · Post by **scoelki** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:40 pm

So I just picked up my 11 month GSP from the dog trainer on Friday. He looks to me really malnourished. The trainer had him for 6 weeks and I can see my dogs spinal cord , most ribs pelvic and shoulder blades. There doesnt seem to be much muscle. I am not too happy about how he looks. Actually I am pretty pissed!!! The trainer is a pretty reputable trainer around here. He told me that he was giving him 6 1/2 cups a day. I tried showing how he looks in the pic but it does not really show it. Is my dog supposed to be this lean or shall I say a skeleton? Or am I over reacting?

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:48 pm

I may be a little thin but probably has been worked hard. I wouldn't be too concerned with how he looks. He looks like he is muscled to me. If you want him heavier then you will have to increase the calories and/or decrease the exercise.

Ezzy

scoelki · Post by **scoelki** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:53 pm

ezzy333 wrote:I may be a little thin but probably has been worked hard. I wouldn't be too concerned with how he looks. He looks like he is muscled to me. If you want him heavier then you will have to increase the calories and/or decrease the exercise.

Ezzy

Should I be able to feel all of his bones and see the spinal cord?

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 3:14 pm

If your dog came back to you trained to your agreement with the trainer, then you can put the weight on him easily.11 months the pup is still growing and they burn calories quickly. I would do a round of PanacurC or other good wormer. Easy to pick up worms in a kennel environment
We don't know how many dogs are in his kennel,how many kennel helpers there are,what brand dog food,how long he works each dog daily,what that work intails.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 3:29 pm

Your dog is a little thin but if you hunt him much I think you will find out hardworking dogs are on the thin side.I also think health wise are better off for it.Dogs gain wqeight pretty quicly & easily if they are healthy so feed him good & you can keep him in the weight you like,but don't be surprised if you have to double his intake to keep him there during hunting season.

Post by **slistoe** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:09 pm

Perhaps your dog was a little heavy when he went there. On a shorthaired dog, if you can't see the ribs when the dog breathes in you have a problem with weight IMO.

doco · Post by **doco** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:38 pm

My three 10 month old pups look the same. When they are worked hard, they stay really lean and almost look malnourished. I can't keep weight on them. The front shoulders look pretty ripped to me. He looks lean, but muscled up. JMO.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:29 pm

I think you will find that most professional and serious amateurs keep a dog much leaner than most "weekend warriors". For a dog to perform at its best it must be in top condition, and for many dogs top condition is much leaner than what their owner thinks it is.

Your dog looks to be in great shape.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:31 pm

He looks fine to me, dogs often come back from training a little thinner, stress , work, different feed.....

Malnourished is a bit of an overstatement....JMHO

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:32 pm

I tend to agree with the others... I see a dog that is a little thin perhaps, but not bad. Looks pretty muscled up to me. My benchmark is, if I can see the ribs when I am next to the dog that is fine. If I can see the ribs from across the yard that is too thin. If the dog was worked hard for six weeks, that is to be expected. At 11 months it could just be a growth spurt which can turn a chunky dog into a bag of bones.

Also, some dogs don't do well with changes of food and environment. As has been stated, a good dose of worm medicine and back on its regular diet. Go from there.

I also agree that the most important thing is...did the dog get the training you wanted??

RayG

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 6:00 pm

Give the dog a good worming just for peace of mind and then feed as normal.

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:29 pm

Good looking dog, looks in good shape to me. Well defined muscle tone looks as if your trainer was working the dog as he should have been for your money. Are you happy with the results of the training? If so thank your trainer for a job well done. Again great looking dog.

+1 as to what Greg said

Post by **jcbuttry8** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:04 pm

You have gotten some great advice. That dog looks good. Pups will thicken and thin out over growth spirts. That pup looks great. Which is worse the pup thin or fat after training? Thin tells me, that dog earned your money in training. People look at my pointer and ask me why i don't feed her. She gets more food than she can eat but runs it off in the field. She runs hard and then sleeps even harder. I have been told and maybe the wiser here can correct me if I am wrong, but If you feed a hard running dog a higher protein food the will burn off the higher dose of protein and it helps them conserve some of the fat. Again what I was told. Since I started Kona on a higher protein diet she is putting on more muscle and looks to have an all around better covering of the ribs, but is still lean as heck. Great looking dog. Hope it is trained to what you expected. Now go have fun and don't worry about the pup.

Also, looks like a young one in the pics. if that pup lived inside with you and the little ones and then moved out to a kennel alone without you and this happened all in a few days, that plays heck on a pup. Stress can be a big cause of it.

Joe

laxhcky4 · Post by **laxhcky4** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:06 pm

My 17 month old looks that way during the hunting season, I have a hard time keeping weight on her when she is working hard constantly. Hes a nice looking boy, good luck with him!

kylemac · Post by **kylemac** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:35 pm

scoelki wrote:The trainer had him for 6 weeks and I can see my dogs spinal cord , most ribs pelvic and shoulder blades...am I over reacting?

I hear ya -- I am new to bird dogs myself, but when my GSP came back last Spring, my wife picked him up from the airport and literally thought we got shipped the wrong dog. He looked so much leaner and was a little dirty as well -- so we were initially taken a little back from it. But once we put it all in perspective - and realized how hard he'd been working for 16+ weeks, it was easy to see what happened. He was healthy -- he just needed a good bath and he'd lost some hair from being in concrete kennels -- but otherwise he was no worse for it. He put back on a few pounds over the summer, but now that we are into hunting season, he is getting lean quick and even after I bumped his feed up by 50%. He just burns an extraordinary amount of calories. I agree with your other respondents -- he looks pretty well muscled up -- just working hard leaned him down. He seems healthy -- just may have been more a shock to you since you know what he looked like before.

Good luck with him.

regards.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:38 pm

I think he left as a big puppy and came back as a young dog.

Ezzy

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:23 am

I wouldn't like to see your pup any thinner but I don't think he's too thin. He has been worked and that takes fat off.
This is a pic of an 8 months old viszla bitch pup I'm training. {Please excuse the tail - docking isn't allowed in Scotland :roll: ]

Her ribs show pretty clearly but she is in good health.

Bill T.

JuliaH · Post by **JuliaH** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:31 am

I agree with the others... work takes the fat off, but the dogs are fine

It is us that have the OMG thoughts. When my Annie is home and resting she gains quickly, but when at work she is going to lose weight.

JMc · Post by **JMc** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:48 am

I agree with all the above but am more concerned that he looks that thin with 6 1/2 cups of food per day...that seems excessive to me. I would definitely worm him and then as stated get him on your regimen.

stlgsp · Post by **stlgsp** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:24 am

I stopped by to see one of my boys at the trainer a couple of weeks ago after a trial. He's a little thinner now but his energy was great, well muscled, coat was good and he was happy. All of that tells me he's doing just fine and working hard.
Your boy is still young and growing. Probably wouldn't want to see him any thinner and would go ahead and worm him. Now that he's home keep him in shape and don't let him gain too much extra weight, I see that happen a lot.

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 7:29 am

He's skinny, but not so skinny that I would be upset with the trainer. It's also noteworthy in a good way that the trainer apparently did notice he was losing weight and increased his food. I do like a pro that minds the wellbeing of the dogs as there are a few that aren't very good about noticing problems.

Some dogs are just hard keepers. When our dog Patriot is off with a pro, it's very hard to keep weight on him. The trainer fed him until he literally couldn't eat anymore, they even ordered supplements to help him put on weight. They managed to stop him from losing any more weight, but it wasn't until he got home that he started gaining again. He was skinny, but he was perfectly healthy, he didn't have worms, and his energy level was through the roof. We just chalked it up to his metabolism going into overdrive.

scoelki · Post by **scoelki** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:47 am

Wow ok maybe I am over reacting a little. I appreciate all the feedback and advice. I am new with German Short Haired Pointers so I really don't know their metabolisms when they are working hard. I was embarrassed to even bring my dog anywhere cause people would think I was abusing him. Kylemac you are right I think me and the wife (even though she wont admit she loves this dog) was more in shock when I brought him home and he was dirty and bony. We gave him a bath and added a few extra cups of food to get start adding a lil more weight and know he seems to be getting used to being back with us.

I was a little worried he had gotten worms as well from the kennel. What kind of worm medicine should I give him and where do I get it from?

Ok so a little bit about the training. I sent the pup to the trainer not knowing if he was going to point birds. Well after two weeks he had him quartering locating and pointing birds. He has encountered over 200 bird contacts since being there. He is hunting to the front, quartering, comes when called, turns on his name, holding his points and e collar conditioned and gun broke. I think it was money well spent. He is now started and I will send him back after the hunting season to get him finished. Oh yeah he was fed Pro Plan Performance while at the kennel.

I can't wait for openng day to come and put him to work!!! Again I appreciate all your feedback. I just love my dogs and I figured this was the best place to ask since my wife was ready to call the trainer and scream at him =D.

A picof him when I first got him.

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:15 am

Just a word of caution. You stated that you "We gave him a bath and added a few extra cups of food to get start adding a lil more weight". I am concerned about a few extra cups when you should be adding a very small amount if any at this time. He is home and not working so he willadd weight without any increase in feed. And if the pup is actually getting 6 cups a day he is already over eating compared to what a normal dog would eat. Remember, that changes in feed or the amount of feed should always be done SLOWLY and in very small amounts.

Good luck and good hunting,
'
Ezzy

Post by **kninebirddog** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:34 am

JMc wrote:I agree with all the above but am more concerned that he looks that thin with 6 1/2 cups of food per day...that seems excessive to me. I would definitely worm him and then as stated get him on your regimen.

I would find a better food that your dog can digest and utilize better but agree maybe a bit thin but IS well muscled
I would do a regime of Safeguard for about 5 days (safeguard and panacur are the same ingredient but safeguard about half the price

)

you can do the paste in the horse dept I lay out a good inch on the finger tip swab on toungue or you can get the goat liquid ..think it is 1ml per 4 lbs body weight do that for about 5 days

also how does your dog eat..if he is scarfing the food ..get a big cookie sheet that has a lipped edges and spread his food out forcing him to only get so many kibbles at a time..we have a pointer that if I feed him in a bowl he wolfs it down fast and loses weight quickly

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:25 am

I have to tell you that people's perceptions are not always right.

A couple of years back i brought one of my pointers in for a suspected ear infection. This was in late November and I had been trialing this dog since Labor Day and his training regimen was at least three days a week in harness for an hour which he would do and have plenty to spare. He was totally rippped. i mean he had muscles coming out of his ears and butt...literally.

After the exam, and yes it was an ear infection...the vet asked if she could use my dog for a few minutes.

She set the dog up in the back and then she called out the techs and had each of them look over the dog and then physically examine the dog. She then told them that this was a dog in virtually peak physical condition and that they should look closely and remember what they were looking at. Almost to a person, the vet techs said that they felt the dog was waaaaay too thin. The vet responded with something like this: The dogs you look at, day in and day out, are almost always overfed by their owners and not just overweight, but often borderline obese.

We get so used to seeing overweight dogs that we start to think overweight is normal. This is a working dog and this is what a dog in good physical condition should look like. If you can't see ribs the dog is too fat. If the dog had a thick coat and you cannot feel the ribs, the dog is too fat.

She doesn't hunt or trial but she understands those of us who do...my kind of vet.

RayG

Post by **Sharon** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:30 pm

That was a nice compliment. My vet regularly tells me that my dogs are the only non fat ones she sees. She doesn't was to see all the ribs though , just be easily able to feel them.

The Bell Canada guy was here yesterday, he told me my dogs were too thin.

doco · Post by **doco** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:59 pm

Funny story had to take one of mine to an out of town vet on a sun morning and the she said that the dog looked extremely thin. To which I replied, "No, she is just in great shape."

Brushbustin Sporting Dogs · Post by **Brushbustin Sporting Dogs** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:29 pm

I've said this before on here but here it goes again!! There isn't any muscles over there ribs or hip bones! So if you can't seem them then your dog is fat! Your dog looks like mine out in the kennel. He was prob fat when you dropped him off!!!

trueblu · Post by **trueblu** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:46 am

I think you've gotten great advice across the board, particularly from Ezzy, Ray, and Brushbustin. I'd be looking at energy level. Is the dog happy, lots of energy, bright eyed, or is he sullen looking? If he's down, sullen, no energy,and skinny, then I'd be concerned. Most, new to GSPs, particularly our field dogs, but also new to birddogs, seem to believe that a round roly poly dog is a healthy dog. I've had far too many people,who don't own birddogs, tell me my dogs are too skinny. They often ignore the muscle mass and purely look at th ribs. Shoot, I've had quarter horse people do the same with my Walkers. People live in a tunnel vision world. Your dog looks a little too skinny from the pics, but not enough to be upset with the trainer, particularly if the dog shows that he has been well trained.

nooblet · Post by **nooblet** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:12 pm

During hunting season I cant keep weight on my pudelpointer and she goes from 3.5 cups per day (not hunting) to 6.5 cups per day (when hunting). Still, even though the wire coat, her ribs and but bones are very obvious.

scoelki · Post by **scoelki** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:32 pm

Brushbustin Sporting Dogs wrote:I've said this before on here but here it goes again!! There isn't any muscles over there ribs or hip bones! So if you can't seem them then your dog is fat! Your dog looks like mine out in the kennel. He was prob fat when you dropped him off!!!

Doesn't have to be muscles .....how about some meat (not fat)? Sorry but my dog was not fat going to the trainer. Here is another pic and you can see the back bone and his hip bones sticking out ....yuck. It still looks worse in person. Well off to NE for opening day tomorrow. I will let you guys know how he does

.

Post by **slistoe** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:41 pm

Just wondering scoelki, why did you bother to ask the question? It is your dog and you do have the right to keep it fat if you want.

Red · Post by **Red** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:49 pm

That dog could use a few pounds for sure, IMO....

scoelki · Post by **scoelki** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:01 pm

slistoe wrote:Just wondering scoelki, why did you bother to ask the question? It is your dog and you do have the right to keep it fat if you want.

I just wanted to know if my dog was being fed from the trainer or not. I am more upset paying a $1000 and this is how he came back to me. I don't want my dog fat at all just want to know if he was malnourished while there. It makes me not want to take him back if that is how he was treated.

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs · Post by **Ricky Ticky Shorthairs** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:24 pm

Your dog looks fine to me. He might be 2 or 3 lbs light. That's about it. He has quite a bit of muscle. How much does he weigh?

Doug

Adawg762 · Post by **Adawg762** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:30 pm

slistoe wrote:Perhaps your dog was a little heavy when he went there. On a shorthaired dog, if you can't see the ribs when the dog breathes in you have a problem with weight IMO.

The dog definitely has been worked hard, but if he is trained the way you had hoped I definitely wouldn't worry about the weight, he is still growing and will put on more weight as he ages. I can definitely see muscle tone in his hindquarters and front shoulders sooooo he is healthy. Definitely agree with the above statement, he is a working dog and shorthaired, so if you can't see his ribs when he breathes he is overweight. Keep at the training though!!!!!

Post by **slistoe** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:43 pm

scoelki wrote:
slistoe wrote:Just wondering scoelki, why did you bother to ask the question? It is your dog and you do have the right to keep it fat if you want.

I just wanted to know if my dog was being fed from the trainer or not. I am more upset paying a $1000 and this is how he came back to me. I don't want my dog fat at all just want to know if he was malnourished while there. It makes me not want to take him back if that is how he was treated.

Really? You have no less that 20 people on this thread who are all in agreement but you are still questioning and trying to plead your case. You weren't wondering, you were convinced you are right and are looking for affirmation.
I will stand by my assessment that the dog was fat when it went to the trainers. The trainer got the dog in shape for you. You are welcome to make it fat again if you like - it is your dog.

Post by **jcbuttry8** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:46 pm

Just thought I would let you see what malnaurished really is.

Your dog is fine.

[/quote]

When a dog does not eat at all you don't even get muscle. You get bone and skin. Your dog has plenty of muscle. Yes he obviously came back not what you were expecting. If you are not going to listen to what many on here have to say, and most have had plenty of dogs back from the trainer, then talk to the trainer and vent your frustrations. Dogs are ran hard at the trainers. It is not like you running it. The trainer has a job. If he got the job done and you are pleased then you spent good money. Feed your dog, run your dog, hunt the birds and be happy. I would imagine the misses is a little more upset than you are, but I get it. I have one too.

Good Luck,

Joe

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 10:14 pm

scoelki wrote:
slistoe wrote:Just wondering scoelki, why did you bother to ask the question? It is your dog and you do have the right to keep it fat if you want.

I just wanted to know if my dog was being fed from the trainer or not. I am more upset paying a $1000 and this is how he came back to me. I don't want my dog fat at all just want to know if he was malnourished while there. It makes me not want to take him back if that is how he was treated.

Ok easy fix.......save your 1000 bucks keep your dog at home......................otherwise...your really looking to much into this the dog looks great, hardly malnourised, was he at a spa eating oats and proteins all day with an oatmeal bath every night? Nope hes a gunddog thats what you bought remember?

Highland Gundogs · Post by **Highland Gundogs** » Fri Oct 28, 2011 10:32 pm

Whats the breeding on your dog?

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 5:31 am

I have had people make remarks about my dogs being skinny [People who do not have working dogs]. I just remind them that they are athletes and it is called being in shape. Personally, I don't like to see the points of the hip bones showing but that can be taken care of. You are making something out of nothing and as the others have said, your dog is fine. If I were you, I would relax and move on.

On another note.....I was thinking about doing some training for people on a small time basis when I retire but after reading some of the posts on here over a period of time, I don't know if it is worth the headaches.

Charlie

flpucknut · Post by **flpucknut** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 8:36 am

Dog looks good to me.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 7:07 pm

It's funny how all but one person on this thread thinks the dog looks fine and has been conditioned (probably for the first time in his life IMO) . People want to over react when they do not get the results they are looking for in a few months because the dog is not working up to their standards.... have to complain about something because you didn't get what you wanted.

Christopher · Post by **Christopher** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 7:37 pm

Your dog looks about the same as my GSP. Mine was a bit on the heavy side before bird season opened. After two days of chasing birds he trimmed up quite a bit, you can see his ribs and his spine when he bends his back. I do think, if you run
the dog often (like we all should) it will be hard to keep any weight on him.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Sun Oct 30, 2011 8:39 am

Whats the breeding on your dog?

And there in lies the issue. You have a GSP and not a DK.

Never see any skinny DKs - do you?

(just a joke, let's not over react)

ST8 UPPOINTERS · Post by **ST8 UPPOINTERS** » Sun Oct 30, 2011 6:54 pm

He looks great to me! Well muscled and in great shape. imo

Lalospalo · Post by **Lalospalo** » Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:07 pm

I agree with Doco, I have Max which is a litter mate to his dogs and I cant keep weight in him. His is lean but is worked hard especially in the hot weather so it is gonna be hard to keep the weight on him. Unless you work him everyday and hard he will gain weight. He looks good.