How to Limit Range of Young GSP

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Re: How to Limit Range of Young GSP

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:30 am

trueblu wrote:Isn't that what I said?
Just about after you got your comments about hated trialers and runoff trial dogs in but I am not sure about a dogs job being to lead you to the birds. Think our trials and our hunting is pretty much limited to the dog finding birds where we need to go and not where it wants to go. I really think that is what scares most people about range. Where do you draw the line between who is deciding where and how to hunt, you or the dog? And that line floats a lot depending on the size and terrain of the grounds you are hunting.

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Re: How to Limit Range of Young GSP

Post by trueblu » Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:41 am

Ezzy, I think I agree, not sure. I will hack a inexperienced dog to send him toward likely objectives. I will pretty much let the old dogs do their thing. I have had far too many times I have more or less forced dogs to hunt areas that I thought looked birdy only to find nothin'. Then, the goofy dog heads out into a seeming open bare chunk of spotty grassed field only to lock up on a 30 bird covey. Or, dig into a thick area that I would never have considered, only to lock up again. However, I do recognize that some hunt "put and kill" places and small tracts so they need to guide the dog around more than what we do. My personal favorite type of hunting is getting on the Mule and letting 2 or 3 dogs rip!! But, that is purely due to where we hunt and the fact that I am a 12 year old mid puberty 48 year old fat ex jock who needs some excitement on occasion!!

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Re: How to Limit Range of Young GSP

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:37 pm

I too think we are on the same page. One of my pet peeves were the people who had to have a pup because they couldn't find the birds but as soon as they got one they had to tell it where to hunt. I have reservations about someone thinking their dog needs to be in ever bit of cover for the same reason, I am sure the dog already knows there is nothing there is why it by-passed the area. But on the other hand I want the dog to go where I go and not just where it wants too. Guess the big picture is go where I go and hunt that area the way they want to hunt it.

You are young! I'm a 16 year old whose next birthday if I live to see it will be number 79 but I still need to get out and see the dogs run and add to the memories that will always be there and try to explain to some of our youngsters just what is important and what isn't when we want to add to that memory bank.

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Re: How to Limit Range of Young GSP

Post by slistoe » Wed Nov 02, 2011 3:45 pm

ezzy333 wrote:But on the other hand I want the dog to go where I go and not just where it wants too. Guess the big picture is go where I go and hunt that area the way they want to hunt it.
Ezzy
And when I got a dog that did exactly that I really thought it was something special. Then I went to a dog trial and found that it really was rather ordinary - any and every dog that had potential to be in the winners circle embodied that same philosophy.

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Re: How to Limit Range of Young GSP

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:19 pm

slistoe wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:But on the other hand I want the dog to go where I go and not just where it wants too. Guess the big picture is go where I go and hunt that area the way they want to hunt it.
Ezzy
And when I got a dog that did exactly that I really thought it was something special. Then I went to a dog trial and found that it really was rather ordinary - any and every dog that had potential to be in the winners circle embodied that same philosophy.
I think, at least hope we are right.

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Re: How to Limit Range of Young GSP

Post by jforgey » Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:12 am

Mik,
I have a male GSP that I can successfully handle at 30-40 yards using a whistle. While it's true that Pointers are big running dogs, there is nothing more important than the dog hunting for you. I hunt pheasant in South Dakota a couple times each year (I was raised there). A big running Pointer out there will bust a hundred birds. What a site that is, literally hundreds of pheasants taking flight 75 - 100 yards ahead of you. What do you do then fellas????? Leave your gun in the truck and break out the camera. On a serious note, the dog is yours, and like you, my desire is to hunt with my dog as a team. He works for me and I work for him. On my most recent South Dakota trip last month, my year-old GSP pointed more than 40 birds...all within gun range (I shot 9 roosters that he had pointed). I haven't read all of this post, but I do have a couple of suggestions. Get him in the field as often as you can. Birds or no birds. Does he quarter for you? If not teach him to quarter and to follow your direction. I suggest a whistle. I use the whistle and verbal communications both. If the dog is quartering in a field and I want him to turn, I give him two peeps or tell him, "come 'round." If he gets to the range limit I set, I give two peeps. If he gets lax with this and tests my range limit I will give two peeps with a light collar stimulation (although I won't stimulate if he is tracking a running bird, no matter how far out he goes). If he continues to want to range too far, I will call him back and refocus him for a minute or so. Maybe give him a treat or toss a bumper. Just a reminder to him that he is having fun with ME! The most important thing I have done with my dog is to develop our relationship. He goes to the field with me, he hunts with me (even if others are present), every bird he retrieves he brings to me, and he listens to me because that is our relationship. Don't give up. Just a comment to some of the others that have replied to your question. Most of you guys are seasoned Pointer owners and I appreciate your experience. But, guys like MIK are not as experienced, but they want to have a good experience with their dog. It might be worthwhile to consider this when you reply to some of these posts. Just a thought.

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Re: How to Limit Range of Young GSP

Post by wills1235 » Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:05 am

The simple answer is e-collar. I've made arguments against collars being the only answer, but simply to limit range, nothing is better.
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Re: How to Limit Range of Young GSP

Post by ultracarry » Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:50 am

Trials or not you are limiting the area that gets covered by hacking your dog in. The only time I hack is if the dog started to go behind me and look at something else. If you see an area that's likely to cover birds and the dog doesn't hit it and it checked out a different area go do it yourself. You preach teamwork but don't hold up your part. if you let the dog learn how to work cover on its own I bet the dog will vary for each hunting scenario. Open country ill let the dog roll, thick brush for valley quail she works every single bush and usually around 60-100 yards, if she is being used as a preserve guide dog ill send her to work and she quarters like.a.million bucks. I didn't teach my dog any of that she experimented and found what works.

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Re: How to Limit Range of Young GSP

Post by brad27 » Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:10 pm

jforgey wrote:Mik,
I have a male GSP that I can successfully handle at 30-40 yards using a whistle. While it's true that Pointers are big running dogs, there is nothing more important than the dog hunting for you. I hunt pheasant in South Dakota a couple times each year (I was raised there). A big running Pointer out there will bust a hundred birds. What a site that is, literally hundreds of pheasants taking flight 75 - 100 yards ahead of you. What do you do then fellas????? Leave your gun in the truck and break out the camera. On a serious note, the dog is yours, and like you, my desire is to hunt with my dog as a team. He works for me and I work for him. On my most recent South Dakota trip last month, my year-old GSP pointed more than 40 birds...all within gun range (I shot 9 roosters that he had pointed). I haven't read all of this post, but I do have a couple of suggestions. Get him in the field as often as you can. Birds or no birds. Does he quarter for you? If not teach him to quarter and to follow your direction. I suggest a whistle. I use the whistle and verbal communications both. If the dog is quartering in a field and I want him to turn, I give him two peeps or tell him, "come 'round." If he gets to the range limit I set, I give two peeps. If he gets lax with this and tests my range limit I will give two peeps with a light collar stimulation (although I won't stimulate if he is tracking a running bird, no matter how far out he goes). If he continues to want to range too far, I will call him back and refocus him for a minute or so. Maybe give him a treat or toss a bumper. Just a reminder to him that he is having fun with ME! The most important thing I have done with my dog is to develop our relationship. He goes to the field with me, he hunts with me (even if others are present), every bird he retrieves he brings to me, and he listens to me because that is our relationship. Don't give up. Just a comment to some of the others that have replied to your question. Most of you guys are seasoned Pointer owners and I appreciate your experience. But, guys like MIK are not as experienced, but they want to have a good experience with their dog. It might be worthwhile to consider this when you reply to some of these posts. Just a thought.
I don't know how i missed this post.
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Re: How to Limit Range of Young GSP

Post by AG74 » Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:00 pm

DogNewbie wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:I'd just let him roll. I hunt both grouse in Wi. and pheasant in SD. I don't care how far they go. I run an Astro on mine. It is nothing for her to be 80-100 yards out in the heavy woods. I just home in on her with the Astro. I don't know of many hunters that want to keep their dogs at 60 yards in the field, and 30 in the grouse woods, and no, I do not field trial.
I'm also a grouse and pheasant hunter and in my experience grouse will hold in cover more so than pheasant. I've had issues with a pheasant dog holding point and the closest shooter not being able to get to the point before that bird has already taken off running. And this dog knows how to readjust point and everything. Anyone have similar experiences?
Tim,

My Minnesota buddies that hunt pheasants in the think cattail sloughs run GSPs and Labs together and generally like to keep the dogs in VERY close range (20-30 yds) because very few phez will sit there tight, most will flush wild. So, they want to be close to the dogs for the shot. In my humble opinion, and this is just my opinion, if I were only gonna hunt phez in SW MN, I would own a nice, close working Lab. I currently live in Oregon and hunt chukar and huns in VERY open country, so I have a pointer (GWP). The first time I met the breeder he offered to "run" the dogs (dam and sire) for me, so I could see. I almost collapsed when they ranged out to about 300 yards....! I thought, how am I ever gonna get close enough to a bird to shoot it!?!? I quickly learned after that, that pointers are bred to range and flushers, to work closer. All my previous experience in MN told me a good dog works no more than 30 yards out. What a world...

anyway, to anwer your question, hunting those dang pheasants with a pointer can be frustrating... I try to hunt phez out here in heavy cover so I can keep up with my dog, becuase 90% of those phez are NOT gonna hold and will flush wild. All the while the dog is flash pointing, relocating, etc,etc...


Al

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Re: How to Limit Range of Young GSP

Post by backwoods » Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:54 pm

mik,

If I had a dog that was not listening to me as I would like I would sure enough rectify the situation. Get a hold of him and make him listen.

On range, to each his own. I hunt some nasty covers in Northern Lower Mich. A 60 yard dog would not make me very happy. Give me a least a 150 yard dog and I'm a happy hunter.

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Re: How to Limit Range of Young GSP

Post by Neil » Thu Dec 15, 2011 1:55 pm

I have been successfully hunting pheasants since 1963 with pointing dogs, most range wide and hit the birds hard, freezing them. Several of them have had All-Age horseback wins. I do pick where I run them to suit my and their style.

I also have 4 Boykins that I hunt the thick stuff where birds are tend to be more plentiful.

One of the chief flaws, in my mind, of field trials is having to follow the course with judges wanting the dog to hunt to the front, no matter the wind or objectives. When I hunt, I follow the dog, with 16,000 years of being a successful predator the good ones know where to hunt, and they don't quarter.

That is not to say that you can't hunt with a close running dog, if you are quiet, very quiet, I have seen it done many times, it is just not the way I enjoy it.

Neil

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Re: How to Limit Range of Young GSP

Post by slistoe » Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:54 pm

Neil wrote:
One of the chief flaws, in my mind, of field trials is having to follow the course with judges wanting the dog to hunt to the front, no matter the wind or objectives. When I hunt, I follow the dog, with 16,000 years of being a successful predator the good ones know where to hunt, and they don't quarter.
Neil
IMO one of the strongest attributes of field trials that is of benefit to the hunter is that you have to follow a course and the dog must hunt to the front, no matter the wind or objectives.

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Re: How to Limit Range of Young GSP

Post by backwoods » Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:44 pm

slistoe wrote:IMO one of the strongest attributes of field trials that is of benefit to the hunter is that you have to follow a course and the dog must hunt to the front, no matter the wind or objectives.
x2

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Re: How to Limit Range of Young GSP

Post by Sharon » Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:35 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:I may be mistaken but I think this is the same guy who was telling us about how much obedience he had been doing with his pup a few months ago,if that is the case it's no surprise he is still wanting the pup to pay attention to him instead of hunting.Control,Control,Control !!
But it's his pup, would have been cheaper to buy a remote controled pup at the toy store. :lol:
No more replies from me,won't change or help a thing. :)
:)

He asked you to "take it down a step not because he didn't want your wisdom but because your tone and attitude was rude .

He's not the 'same guy". He's a member asking a good question that folks who haven't had a lot of dogs ask., as Mr Cooper and Ezzy said,

He doesn't care about people's hangups about big / short running dogs. He asked what to do to control the range of his dog. He deserved a straight, respectful answer.

MLK: See the posts below on how to turn your dog. That's your best advice.

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by jforgey » Sun Dec 04, 2011 12:12 pm

Mik,
I have a male GSP that I can successfully handle at 30-40 yards using a whistle. While it's true that Pointers are big running dogs, there is nothing more important than the dog hunting for you. I hunt pheasant in South Dakota a couple times each year (I was raised there). A big running Pointer out there will bust a hundred birds. What a site that is, literally hundreds of pheasants taking flight 75 - 100 yards ahead of you. What do you do then fellas????? Leave your gun in the truck and break out the camera. On a serious note, the dog is yours, and like you, my desire is to hunt with my dog as a team. He works for me and I work for him. On my most recent South Dakota trip last month, my year-old GSP pointed more than 40 birds...all within gun range (I shot 9 roosters that he had pointed). I haven't read all of this post, but I do have a couple of suggestions. Get him in the field as often as you can. Birds or no birds. Does he quarter for you? If not teach him to quarter and to follow your direction. I suggest a whistle. I use the whistle and verbal communications both. If the dog is quartering in a field and I want him to turn, I give him two peeps or tell him, "come 'round." If he gets to the range limit I set, I give two peeps. If he gets lax with this and tests my range limit I will give two peeps with a light collar stimulation (although I won't stimulate if he is tracking a running bird, no matter how far out he goes). If he continues to want to range too far, I will call him back and refocus him for a minute or so. Maybe give him a treat or toss a bumper. Just a reminder to him that he is having fun with ME! The most important thing I have done with my dog is to develop our relationship. He goes to the field with me, he hunts with me (even if others are present), every bird he retrieves he brings to me, and he listens to me because that is our relationship. Don't give up. Just a comment to some of the others that have replied to your question. Most of you guys are seasoned Pointer owners and I appreciate your experience. But, guys like MIK are not as experienced, but they want to have a good experience with their dog. It might be worthwhile to consider this when you reply to some of these posts. Just a thought.

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by ACooper » Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:35 am

The problem is the OP didn't ask what a "good range" or what everyone feels is a good range. He asked how to control HIS dogs range. Most people here will agree that as a persons experience level goes up so does the comfort level with a dog that runs bigger and bigger, but most people have to experience that for themselves and it takes time.

Mik good luck with your dog, do yourself a favor and don't just hack and shock the dog until it shortens up, I assume that you have not been doing that. Teach the dog to turn on a whistle/voice and "handle" him more, this should with a little work keep him shortened up. You will as you go become more comfortable want the dog to extend his search and you can do this with less handling.
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Re: How to Limit Range of Young GSP

Post by ultracarry » Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:25 pm

I'm surprised no one has answered this guy and gave him.the straight answer.... put the e-collar on him and fry him every time he goes further than you want. His prey drive will kick in and you will have to do it again and again. Eventually you will have a dog that ranges as far as you think he is able to be trusted so you can shoot every bird. When the dog forgets just fry him till he finds his way back.


FYI you will make or break your dogs spirit. He may or may not have any style in the field or enjoy himself for fear of the collar. He may refuse to hunt and decide he would rather he in the truck. It would be less painfull to buy a "pointing lab". PS the burns on his neck will go away with time but don't worry.

I have observed this with one so cal "trainer" who is no longer in so cal.. Had the dog drooling and trying to jump in the box every time he let him out.

Good luck and be careful what you wish for.

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Re: How to Limit Range of Young GSP

Post by Neil » Fri Dec 16, 2011 2:08 am

Ultracarry is right of course, if you do it wrong, bad things can happen.

But every winning All-Age dog in the country has been trained to hunt close on relocation, I have seen National Champions stay within 40 yards for 10 long minutes with little more than, "Whuup, hunt here" to keep him close.

It was not my intention to get the op or anyone else to let their dogs run and hunt, just that he should consider it, for if the dog is steady, it will work.

And I agree, "you must show your dog to the front" has made for better bird dogs, I just don't like it, I don't hunt that way, I shouldn't have said flaw.

Neil

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Re: How to Limit Range of Young GSP

Post by slistoe » Fri Dec 16, 2011 7:36 am

Neil wrote: And I agree, "you must show your dog to the front" has made for better bird dogs, I just don't like it, I don't hunt that way, I shouldn't have said flaw.

Neil
If you mean keeping to a strict course at a constant forward pace, I don't hunt that way either. I choose the direction and pace of the hunt. Perhaps I may just want to stand, leaning on a fencepost, overlooking the fields and valleys for 10 minutes. But the one thing I can count on is that the dog will do it's darndest to always be in front no matter how wishy washy my path may be. But the only way to tell the difference between the folks chasing their dogs willy nilly all over creation and the folks controlling where the front is while out hunting, is to mandate a set course and pace watching for which dogs take up the front - and which dogs continue to hunt willy nilly without a care for where the handler is going.

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Re: How to Limit Range of Young GSP

Post by jcbuttry8 » Fri Dec 16, 2011 7:50 am

A dog will run as big as it is bred to until it gets into birds. This is why in a trial the bird fields are quite a ways from the start line. It is about seeing the dog work and watching the range of the dog. The dogs will work the distance that is bred in them. If you choose to cut that down then you will need to use an ecollar. It will be your biggest asset, but with that you need to make sure you know how to use it. A collar wise dog is a pain too. In my experience, even cutting down a dog with range, a dog will always resort back to what is instinct. He will always look at ranging.

I think this is alot of the problem we see here. If you are looking to have a dog range at 30 to 40 yards, you should get that dog from 30 to 40 yard stock. If you purchase a 200 to 400 yard dog then it will take time, alot of effort, and much hacking to pull it in. It can be done but much harder, and if it is not done right, you can and will shy the dog up.

I agree with Sharon and the others who have said to teach the dog to turn. It would be your best asset with this pup. This way your not cutting it down and hacking all the time. If you are not sure that you can, then find a trainer in your area that can teach you how to teach your dog. The worst thing you can do is allow the pup to do what it wants because it wouldn't listen. Never give a command that you can't enforce.

Good luck with your pup. I hope you get the advice you are looking for and if not look in your area for someone that can help. We all started at the bottom. I believe someone wrote on here a few months back that even Tiger Woods has a trainer.

Joe

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Re: How to Limit Range of Young GSP

Post by Tejas » Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:51 pm

The most effective way I know to shorten the range of the dog without resorting to hacking and liberally using an electric collar will require that you give up something in the short-term. From my reading of the original post I gathered you were running your dog on either wild or pre-released birds. If you want your dog to hunt for birds within a prescribed range then train it to do so by limiting the range from you where it will find birds. Get a launcher or launchers and acquire birds and plant said birds at the range you want your dog to hunt. Do this every time you train until the dog has been conditioned that birds are going to be found within your prescribed range.....if it goes beyond that distance no birds.

This is the only method I have found to be useful without taking some of the drive and style out of the dog.

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