Deer Question

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DogNewbie
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Deer Question

Post by DogNewbie » Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:12 am

I took the pup out for an off leash walk the other day and we ran into his first deer. He bolted after it but luckily wasn't strong enough to keep up in the long grass, but the damage was done and he was unresponsive to any commands. Took about 8 minutes to get him back to me. My question has to do with trash breaking. The pup has been wearing the collar for about a month now but it has never been turned on. I'm wondering if it's too soon to start using it for trash breaking and if I should be careful to administer his first shock as a high level shock? Should the collar be used first with low stim levels in a training session before using it for trash breaking? Thanks,

Tim

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Re: Deer Question

Post by DonF » Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:47 am

How old is he? I wouldn't try trash breaking a pup but you can start taking the chase out of him. He chases a deer, low level stim when he starts chasing. nick of constent should either work.
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Re: Deer Question

Post by DogNewbie » Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:07 am

He's 5 months old

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Re: Deer Question

Post by jimbo&rooster » Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:21 am

Im struggling with this right now with a 6mo old pup. I have always waited till a dog was a little older to trash break, however, my dog runs 3-5days a week in CRP and is strong enough to put a good run on a deer. On an older dog that is used to the collar I have always used high level of stim and kept my mouth shut and that seems to have done the trick. You just have to be sure that you dog is for sure running a deer.

But since your pup is younger like my current trash runner I really don't have an answer for ya.

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Re: Deer Question

Post by mudhunter » Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:02 pm

use the collar and don't say a word. Don't worry about the age of the dog, get him now and nip it right away. If they start to get away with it a few times its harder to break down the road.

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Re: Deer Question

Post by DogNewbie » Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:06 pm

mudhunter wrote:use the collar and don't say a word. Don't worry about the age of the dog, get him now and nip it right away. If they start to get away with it a few times its harder to break down the road.
Even if he's never had the collar used on him in training?

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Re: Deer Question

Post by 4dabirds » Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:31 pm

read previous post "how old"

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Re: Deer Question

Post by mudhunter » Mon Oct 31, 2011 4:00 pm

DogNewbie wrote:
mudhunter wrote:use the collar and don't say a word. Don't worry about the age of the dog, get him now and nip it right away. If they start to get away with it a few times its harder to break down the road.
Even if he's never had the collar used on him in training?


Trash breaking is the simplest thing, you say the dog is used to wearing the collar so he already should associate the collar with running in the fields, now if you keep your mouth shut and act like nothing happen when he starts to chase and shock him he will associate the deer with the pain and not you or the collar. I wouldn't roll him on high at 5 months but I would break the chase, do it now and you will have a truly deer broke dog, let him get away with it and you will get a dog that is deer broke when he thinks your looking.

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Re: Deer Question

Post by nooblet » Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:12 pm

Opinions are like... well we all know the rest. But here's mine.

Your instinct is correct. You need to collar break your dog first. If you do it properly the nick will be a message to the dog to stop or come or whatever the command was. Not just deer = pain (if you take this route you'll have to associate every critter they might chase with pain - that doesnt make much sense). I'd collar break your dog in your back yard. It's very easy to do and the dog will understand the collar is nothing more than a 1 mile check cord. That's it.

Also, I'd run that dog with a check cord on him (not in your hand, but with a pinch collar around his neck with the cord dragging) until he listens well and can be on only the e-collar. It won't inhibit running but will serve as a constant reminder that they are not just out there screwing around. I mean, they are having fun, but they need to keep an eye on you too.

If you need ideas on how to collar break your dog let me know. It will involve a walk, a pinch collar, the check cord and your e-collar.

Good luck.

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Re: Deer Question

Post by RayGubernat » Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:13 pm

Here is what I used to do with my pups, and yes, six months old is within my time envelope. I would do this before the dog knew what an e-collar stim was all about.

I went to a WMA with sandy soil and a lot of deer. I walked into the WMA until I found a bunch of deer or at least some very fresh tracks crossing a sand road. I then went back and got the dog that I was going to trashbreak. I walked the dog in on a checkcord until I got fairly close(couple hundred yards) to the area of "interest".

I would let the dog go and when it came upon the deer or the tracks I was ready because I knew exactly where they were. If the dog showed any interest whatsoever in the deer I hit the dog with a maximum intensity 8 second stim. If the dog so myuch as dropped its nose to smell the tracks...same thing. When the dog came tearing back to me, I would get down on one knee and be very solicitous to the dog "WHAT HAPPENED BOY?? ARE YOU ALL RIGHT?? The dogs have absolutely no idea I was the one that did the dirty deed.

Almost without exception, after one session, the dog wanted absolutely nothing to do with deer or deer scent for the rest of its life. I have seen dogs actually pick up their heads and look away when running across a deer track and I have seen a dog literally turn and run in the opposite direction when they spot a deer running. Kinda funny.

Since I moved to a rural area, I have not had to use that tactic. My neighbor has goats and I road my dogs past their pasture frequently. I stop the dogs and make them stand until the goats run off...and then we continue on our way. After a time, the dogs pretty much ignore the goats. So far, that has seemed to carry over to ignoring deer also.

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Re: Deer Question

Post by slistoe » Fri Nov 04, 2011 7:08 pm

What Ray said.

If the dog is old enough to recognize deer scent and desire to chase them it is old enough for trash breaking.

Trash breaking has nothing to do with e-collar training. It is pure avoidance training. If the dog is accustomed to wearing the collar all the time when out and about you are good to go.

Trash breaking is the only reason why there is a high setting on the collar IMO. Use it.

Leave nothing to "chance". This is a training exercise. Set out with a purpose - to break the dog on deer. Find the deer, get the dog in position and have the sight/scent/sound of the deer make the dog not want to have anything to do with them. It has nothing to do with you, there is no command for it, the dog simply learns that deer are bad news.

Quick, simple and effective.

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Re: Deer Question

Post by Louburk » Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:30 pm

I taught my gsp in pretty much the same manor as Ray did, at a young age. My dog is 2 now and if she jumps a deer she might take a few steps, (just because of the noise and movement) but one noseful, and she just continues on like its nothing. It has not affected her desire for birds at all.
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Re: Deer Question

Post by gonehuntin' » Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:01 pm

This same thing was just on another thread. I will NEVER, EVER, EVER, TRASH BREAK A DOG UNTIL HE IS FULLY COLLAR CONDITIONED.

If you want to give a dog a collar attitude, that's the way to do it. If you think the dog doesn't know WHO and WHAT disciplined him, you are sadly mistaken.
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Re: Deer Question

Post by JKP » Sun Nov 06, 2011 7:46 pm

My 2 cents...

Since you have what looks like a Black and White DD or GWP on your post, I will assume that is the breed of dog you are talking about. If the dog is old enough, strong willed enough and confident enough to chase after deer, IMO it is old enough to be corrected. Initially, I would NOT use the "fry an egg" level but rather one that is highly irritating to the dog. He chased a deer once....I doubt the dog is a hard core fur chaser and most likely the level that causes the dog to put on the brakes and scratch at the collar will be enough. If it isn't keep upping the level until the dog breaks off. Be consistent...it will work. Have done this with all of mine and they stop to flush when a deer that flushes out of cover. What others have said is right on...don't say a thing or make a sound when you correct the dog....the dog must associate the stimulation with the deer....not you.

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Re: Deer Question

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:38 pm

Low stimulations are used for training after the pup is conditioned. Avoidance or trash breaking is done on high whether the dog has had a collar on before or not but I usually just ignore the dog rather than aknowledge anything happened. And if the pup has never seen a collar before he has no idea you did it to him. Once he is collar conditioned he may make the association but I would still do it.

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Re: Deer Question

Post by DogNewbie » Mon Nov 07, 2011 9:21 am

Lot of great advise. Thanks a bunch!

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Re: Deer Question

Post by CherrystoneWeims » Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:35 am

He definitely doesn't have to be collar conditioned for avoidance training. I've done this with several of my pups (about 5 mos) to break them of cat drive.

Teaching him to not chase deer can save his life. I have a friend in NC whose dog chased a deer and she lost her to hunters who shot her and threw her down a well ON HER OWN PROPERTY!!!
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Re: Deer Question

Post by EAM » Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:44 pm

I have a 15 month old Brittanny. He is collar conditioned. He ran some deer about a month ago out of a preserve, crossed a busy road, and ran about a mile or so before I could find him. First time he has done this. We didnt realize he was running deer at first. Question, when I trashbreak him should I start with the highest setting? I have a garmin alpha with 18 settings. This may not matter but the dog is small, about 28 lbs, but he does have a strong prey drive.

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Re: Deer Question

Post by averageguy » Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:08 pm

What level of intensity do you normally train with?

My current dog for example will heed the stimulation at a 4 with no ill effects to his demeanor. But I have my 3rd button set to 9 which is what is needed to break him off a fur race on a deer or a coyote. I use the 9 in silence if he gets on a coyote or deer chase as I want to give the dog a negative association with running the coyote or deer, not associate it with discipline from me. The approach will keep the dog from wanting to run fur when you are not in sight. My dog is a GWP and weighs 65 lbs. I find the stimulation level is more specific to the dog's mentality than it is their size.

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Re: Deer Question

Post by EAM » Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:58 am

What level of intensity do you normally train with?


In the yard he will often respond to a 1, maybe go up to a 3. If I am heeling him and he comes by another dog, he might need a 4. But, he was bad at chasing tweety birds, flushed pheasants, and training pigeons. When they flew he would chase them as far as he could. I would whistle him to recall and he would ignore it. I would go up in intensity until he came back, sometimes that took a 10. I can call him off chasing birds now usually with just his name, or whoa him, no stimulation. He has always liked to chase things.

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Re: Deer Question

Post by Sharon » Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:35 pm

as low as does the job. Every dog is different.

setter - very low and seldom

jrt - they hardly make a setting high enough. :) He will grit his teeth and still ignore you. Best thing for him is to get your hands on him.
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Re: Deer Question

Post by averageguy » Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:36 pm

Sounds similar to my dog and you will probably want to try a 9 or a 10. I think I failed to mention I am using an Alpha as well. I have at times taken an early morning or evening drive and found some deer feeding in an open area. Collared up the dog and if possible took a walking route which would put us close to the deer before they detected us and then watch the dog carefully to see when it hits the track and start running it and then use the ecollar at a high enough level that the dog will vocalize and pull off the track pretty quick. I say nothing to the dog as I do this so that the dog associates the correction with the act of chasing the deer and not me.

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Re: Deer Question

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:12 pm

For trash breaking you use the highest setting while not saying a word. You want the dog hurting and thinking the deer did it and you had nothing to do with it.

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Re: Deer Question

Post by averageguy » Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:49 pm

EAM, Hopefully you will follow the advice I gave. No need to start that dog out at level 18 on the Alpha when based on our exchange a level 10 or close to it will likely accomplish the training goal. If it does not break the dog off then raise the level. As I posted, stay silent so the dog associates it with the deer and not you.

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Re: Deer Question

Post by slistoe » Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:49 pm

averageguy wrote:EAM, Hopefully you will follow the advice I gave. No need to start that dog out at level 18 on the Alpha when based on our exchange a level 10 or close to it will likely accomplish the training goal. If it does not break the dog off then raise the level. As I posted, stay silent so the dog associates it with the deer and not you.
Why "test" the dog for what level will be needed and risk various repeats of the behavior and a possible build up of tolerance. This can literally be life or death training. Turn up the collar and get the job done the first time.

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Re: Deer Question

Post by Featherfinder » Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:00 pm

No....he's not too young. Ensure the dog is actually chasing. If he is....use what it takes to deter future considerations. Do NOT connect yourself in any way to the stim. It has nothing to do with you in the dog's eyes. If the dog returns to you skulking, sulking or whatever, look at the horizon, keep walking casually and say NOTHING.
It's ALL about those nasty deer.
Ditto what Averageguy suggested.

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Re: Deer Question

Post by averageguy » Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:15 pm

slistoe wrote:
averageguy wrote:EAM, Hopefully you will follow the advice I gave. No need to start that dog out at level 18 on the Alpha when based on our exchange a level 10 or close to it will likely accomplish the training goal. If it does not break the dog off then raise the level. As I posted, stay silent so the dog associates it with the deer and not you.
Why "test" the dog for what level will be needed and risk various repeats of the behavior and a possible build up of tolerance. This can literally be life or death training. Turn up the collar and get the job done the first time.
Did you read his posts Steve? He said he was able to break the dog off a hot bird chase using a 10. Why use a higher level than necessary to accomplish the training needed? I have broken dogs from running deer for over 40 years, Hounds, Airedale, GWPs which may not be as long as some but it is sufficient to know how to go about it. I broke my 2 year old GWP using an Alpha set on 9. That is why I asked EAM what level he trains his dog with normally. His response was very low levels are used. Same as my current dog. I have had other dogs which needed higher levels so I used them. I did not suggest a protracted use of lower levels building up a resistance. I suggested using a level which sounds likely to be sufficient and if it is not then immediately turn up the level. That is why they make 18 levels. Ultimately it is his dog, but I gave sound advice.

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Re: Deer Question

Post by shags » Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:28 pm

I jack my collar all the way up. I don't care if it turns the dogs inside out for a couple of seconds. It's once and done, who cares if it might have worked at a level or two lower.

We have township roads within several hundred feet to about 1/2 mile away, and two state highways a mile off. That's nothing for a dog on deer. I'd rather overdo it than take a chance on losing my dogs.

We've had the misfortune of scraping a dog off the road and won't mess with 'which level'. Once and done.

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Re: Deer Question

Post by averageguy » Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:40 pm

Using the proper level of stimulation does not equate with a willingness to take a chance on a dog getting run over. The Alpha has a touch screen, if the dog does not break off the stimulation can be immediately increased such that it does.

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Re: Deer Question

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:27 pm

This is the very first time I have heard experienced handlers recommend trial and error for trash breaking. I am at a loss for words as to why!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Deer Question

Post by averageguy » Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:14 am

ezzy333 wrote:This is the very first time I have heard experienced handlers recommend trial and error for trash breaking. I am at a loss for words as to why!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No trial and error at all. What I recommended was taking the dog to an area where deer are feeding in an open area field. Most likely early or late in the day. Work the dog towards the deer such that it is likely to encounter the deer at close range and a chase ensues. Then use the ecollar in silence to break the dog off the chase. Ideally I like the setup to be such that I have eyes on the dog and can immediately see its reaction to the stimulation and adjust accordingly if needed.

As to the stimulation level used, I inquired as to how sensitive and responsive the dog was to stimulation during other training exercises and then used that feedback to suggest a level which is likely to break the dog off the chase in short order. And I posted that if the initial level used is not sufficient then by all means increase it immediately as the collar is designed to function.

The approach will yield correct information to handler as to what specific level of stimulation is needed to break this dog off of a deer chase. Most dogs I have trained have not been become reliably broke with only one correction. Having learned what is the best level of stimulation, one of the 3 buttons can be set to that level and used again whenever necessary and one training session in this manner will not build up a tolerance to ecollar stimulation. The approach is how I broke my current 2 year old dog using the exact Alpha collar the OP is using and level 9 stimulation. I have broke many prior dogs in the same manner and seldom needed to fry a dog at MAX level to do it.

Pretty straightforward actually.

EAM do not be confused here .We are all recommending a similar approach but have a difference of opinion as to whether it advisable to get some feedback from your dog as a starting point based on its prior reactions to an ecollar, or instead just fry it at the MAX level. Your call Best of Luck, this is an easy area of training and I am sure it will work out fine.

EAM - One other note. Some folks give dog training advise on a dog they have never seen as though all dogs are the same and one approach is always for the best. Me, I like to read and observe the dog I am training and adapt to what I think will be most effective for that dog on that subject. Reading a dog is always the best information and a lot of the online training advice you will receive does not have the benefit of seeing your dog work. I work to avoid that as adaptation based on a dog's reaction is always a good approach to dog training.

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Re: Deer Question

Post by ezzy333 » Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:28 pm

Average Guy, not trying to make fun of you but I really have never heard of a method of trash breaking that even mentioned testing how little stimulation should be used. For breaking, the more the better, for dog training, the less you use the better.

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Re: Deer Question

Post by polmaise » Sat Jun 16, 2018 2:54 pm

Different strokes for different folks .
I took this 6 month old for an off leash walk in the woods.
Some others may have a different interpretation to an off leash walk .

It was the first encounter for this young one , but then Heel and Sit were already conditioned well before the leash was off in that situation .
He remembered it well ,because later when we done training on Game or in the shooting field he just ignored them.
Another one in the kennels at that time however was introduced in a different manner ,but then It was being trained/conditioned for a different approach . :wink:
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Re: Deer Question

Post by averageguy » Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:39 pm

All Good here Ezzy and I appreciate your post.

I was trying to help EAM out on his question. My current dog will vocalize on a 9 and pull off a fur chase. I trained steady to WSF on this dog using mostly 2 and very occasional bursts into the 3 range. Why would I need or want to use a higher level of stimulation than the one which is effective for each training objective?

All posting here agree, Trash Breaking is based on giving the dog a negative experience with chasing that game such that the dog thinks it not worth doing again.

I heard the standard advise of use the highest setting on the ecollar for Trash Breaking a long time ago. I was breaking a puppy using a TT collar back when you had to put a color coded numeric level plug in keys in them, which then set the only stimulation level that could be delivered until the collar was removed from the dog and the key was changed out. That pup would burn through a 3 but would stop anything he was doing with a 4 so I never had any reason to use the highest level 5 on him and didn't. That was when I learned the standard advise of using the highest level was not the last word on the subject, and I have been using the level required to break my dogs off deer, but nothing higher every since.

Not trying to talk you into it, just clarifying my approach on the subject since it has become a bit of an issue in the advise I gave.

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Re: Deer Question

Post by Featherfinder » Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:43 pm

Had a pointer here that chased deer. He ran through all I had on a freshly charged Dogtra 2502! I put 2 2502s on him. Saw deer over a hillside. Set the dog free. He chased. I hit him full pop with one collar. He never missed a stride. I hit him with full power X 2! He staggered his chase and reluctantly stood watching the deer. Then, he broke off them and ran with a 12 o'clock tail looking for birds, like it never happened. This is the same pointer that rips porcupines apart, then returns to bird hunting - again, as if it never happened!
The suggestions we make are often based on our knowledge base. Some simply have had more experience with the extremities rather than your run-of-the-mill bird dog. Many offer sincere responses for processes they have had success with. They are not lying or embellsihing the truth. Simply put, they might not have had the knowledge base others have.
We ALL start somewhere. It's where some ARE (and therefore what they have to offer) that might make a difference.
You've got some good counsel from some here. Reread what was offered, if you're still not sure.

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Re: Deer Question

Post by averageguy » Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:06 am

No doubt some dogs have a higher tolerance for ecollar stimulation than others do. Finding the right level for each dog and each training objective is always sound advice. Having experienced an outlier hard case dog is not justification for assuming and treating every other dog a trainer comes into contact with as though they are the same.

And Yes those who ONLY and ALWAYS use the MAX level of stimulation to break a dog from running deer will lack the experience to know it can be done with a lower than MAX level of stimulation on many dogs had they started their breaking efforts there instead.

I steer away from commenting on "run of the mill bird dogs" which cannot track blood, retrieve 30+ head of waterfowl in a day from between the ice flows on swift running rivers, and adapt their search patterns to differing cover and upland birds the moment they encounter the difference, least someone think I am making an inference their dogs are inferior to mine.

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Re: Deer Question

Post by cjhills » Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:02 am

averageguy wrote:No doubt some dogs have a higher tolerance for ecollar stimulation than others do. Finding the right level for each dog and each training objective is always sound advice. Having experienced an outlier hard case dog is not justification for assuming and treating every other dog a trainer comes into contact with as though they are the same.

And Yes those who ONLY and ALWAYS use the MAX level of stimulation to break a dog from running deer will lack the experience to know it can be done with a lower than MAX level of stimulation on many dogs had they started their breaking efforts there instead.

I steer away from commenting on "run of the mill bird dogs" which cannot track blood, retrieve 30+ head of waterfowl in a day from between the ice flows on swift running rivers, and adapt their search patterns to differing cover and upland birds the moment they encounter the difference, least someone think I am making an inference their dogs are inferior to mine.
Why would anyone think that? Maybe cause you are?...……………….Cj

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Re: Deer Question

Post by averageguy » Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:07 am

No CJ, Just using sarcasm to counter punch a bit and daring to present experience and advise slightly contrary to the status quo of some. Guess it is Human Nature to over look the feisty comments of those with similar tastes as your own vs someone who dares to differ a bit.

I enjoy and appreciate the big running Upland Specialists and hunt with them annually. I do not shade all dog related subjects with a single yardstick however. Hardly a secret this board is dominated with comments from FTers and given birds of a feather stick together there is a lot of commonality in the advise posted. Much is the same as the advise I offer, sometimes not.

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Re: Deer Question

Post by Sharon » Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:22 pm

You're a true gentleman AG. Thank you.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote

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Re: Deer Question

Post by polmaise » Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:48 pm

You say it as you see it cj.......... I like that and can relate to it, even if it's towards Me ! :lol:

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Re: Deer Question

Post by averageguy » Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:13 pm

polmaise wrote:You say it as you see it cj.......... I like that and can relate to it, even if it's towards Me ! :lol:
Good to know polmaise. I may take you up on that sometime.

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Re: Deer Question

Post by rinker » Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:11 am

I have E Pointers, and I start putting an ecollar on them each time we go to the field as soon as their necks are big enough to wear it. I turn the collar on and I have the transmitter on me. I have no real intention of using the collar, but I have found that you never get a second chance to end a pup's first deer race. Typically a pup has to be 5/6 months old to be able to physically chase a deer hard. I should mention that I use a Tritronics Pro 500 collar. So, if a pup jumps a deer and gives chase, I use a '3 low' continuous stimulation and hold the button down until the pup stops chasing. When he stops chasing, I release the button and let the pup make a decision, resume the chase or stop and come back. If he resumes the chase, I push the button down and hold until he stops. I keep this up until the pup stops and comes back. I don't really recall having to stimulate a pup for the third time, but I might have.

I think letting the pup make that decision, stop or continue the chase is important. He is deciding that the chase isn't worth it, and he may be deer broke for the rest of his life. I think stimulating a pup at the highest setting, upsets the pup so bad, that he can't mentally process what happened.

I know this part is off topic, but I"m going to address it anyway. I hear many say that you can't 'teach' with an ecollar, just 'enforce', I don't completely believe this. I run puppies as often as I can for short periods of time. Virtually every puppy that I have ever worked, at some point started to decide that he doesn't want to quit when I do. I will run the pup for twenty minutes or so and circle back to the truck, when the pup realizes that the fun is almost over, he takes off to avoid being caught and put up. I'm ready for this to happen and am watching for it. Again, the pup has been wearing a collar for months now. When the pup realized we are almost back to the truck, and takes off, I start tapping the momentary stimulation button, usually on a '2 low'. It will take the pup a few seconds to realize that he is being stimulated, he usually just stops with a confused look. When the pup stops, I stop tapping. The pup has the following choices at this point, continue to stand there and think about it, run away from me, run left, run right, or run towards me. Running away, left, or right, and the tapping starts again. Standing and thinking, or running towards me, is OK, no tapping. Sooner or later, the pup will usually take a few steps towards me, and realize that there is no stimulation. Usually, at this point the pup will run straight to me. If this whole ordeal takes five minutes the first day, it will take three minutes the second day, one minute the fourth day, and the fifth day, the pup will run straight to me at the first tap. Most will retain this and be easy to catch and handle the rest of their lives. I should mention that I am calling to the pup as well, not just stimulating. I should also mention that I spend a lot of time petting and praising the pup when he comes to me.

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Re: Deer Question

Post by Featherfinder » Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:36 am

Excellent post Rinker!

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Re: Deer Question

Post by polmaise » Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:25 pm

Now , maybe your chance or opportunity 'averageguy' .
...
I train pointing dogs amongst other things to track Deer ..well they can be 'Versatile' ,pardon the pun.
It won't surprise some that the e-collar isn't used ?> .. With trashing it is very versatile.
Lengthy post 'Rinker' . I condition stop and recall with a whistle ..in all environments and it works for me . I must be lucky .

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Re: Deer Question

Post by shags » Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:39 pm

How do you keep them off deer if you aren't there to whistle a stop and recall?

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Re: Deer Question

Post by isonychia » Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:47 am

Turn the collar on and get him conditioned to come with the collar, he is old enough. This is low stim. Second, the last thing you want is for your dog to bolt on the high stim avoidance training level for trash breaking. Get him conditioned and the recall command solid. Then if he chases deer or runs out in the highway, nail his butt! Pups need more controlled environments to romp in BECAUSE we don't have solid control yet, if you do not yet have control of the pup, you have to have control over his environment. Also, using low stim on chasing deer tells the young dog that you don't want him to chase that deer. You want that dog to KNOW that HE doesn't want to chase that deer, and the only way to do that is to show him Jesus and make him think the deer did it, IE - highest stim level. Iis were me, I would get the collar conditioning done in controlled environments without deer, take two weeks to do this or so given you have a foundation already with CC. After that, you should be good to go on avoidance training with deer unless you are having a hard time building up a softer dog, doesn't really sound like it though. Soft dogs are often scared of deer at that age.

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Re: Deer Question

Post by polmaise » Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:56 am

shags wrote:How do you keep them off deer if you aren't there to whistle a stop and recall?
I'm surprised at you 'shags' .......They point them :wink: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Deer Question

Post by shags » Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:36 pm

LOL. Just so happens my young dog pointed a nice big buck this morning.

Then the buck took off along the woodsline, and the dog broke and went to that same line. SumminnaB! And no ecollar since we'd just gone through there with dogs a few minites before. I thought for sure the chase was on, but the buck ducked into the woods and the dog continued up the line without even turning his head toward the deer.

I'm not gloating about successful trashbreaking, because soon as you brag, the dog makes a liar of you...but I'm glad our trashbreaking appears to have been successful.

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Re: Deer Question

Post by averageguy » Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:31 pm

Had a very interesting experience today.

In June 2017 we drove my then one year old dog to Boise ID for a porcupine avoidance training class. It was done using a taxidermy porcupine with fresh urine and ecollar stimulation levels set far below MAX, tailored to the individual dog's sensitivity to ecollar stimulation in other training situations. It was the first and only encounter my dog has had with a porcupine that I am aware of.

This Spring a buddy in SD put a road killed porky in the freezer for me and I drove out to attend a rattlesnake avoidance class this summer and brought it back with me. Thawed it out and worked the dog on it today. The porky was in the tall CRP grass edge where it butts up to our mowed yard and the wife took the dog on a check cord to where he would hit the scent cone while I watched at the ready to apply stimulation should he show interest in the porky.

Over a year later with only one prior negative experience my dog sucked down his tail and head and slunk in the opposite direction the moment he hit the scent cone of that porcupine before I could even apply any stimulation. Did the same the second time.

Another data point for my approach of using enough stimulation to give the dog a lasting negative experience but anything beyond that is overkill. Reading the dog and tailoring training to match the dog being trained is always the right choice.
Last edited by averageguy on Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Deer Question

Post by Trekmoor » Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:42 am

Like Polmaise I live in Scotland where there is a ban on e- collars . I am at present trying to train my daughters 8 -9 months old GSP to be a gundog. All was going fairly well considering my very limited mobility . He was starting to point the pheasants he found and starting to hold his points too and he had stopped chasing them for more than a few feet.
He had found and pointed (and also bumped a few too) several birds one afternoon about a week ago with no chasing and I , as usual, did not even have a check-cord on him . I was feeling very chuffed with myself and had relaxed a bit when I noticed him drawing onto another scent when he was about 20 -30 yards away from me.


A hare jumped up right in front of him and I just had to stand there watching (and doing a bit of completely useless yelling ) as he pursued it right off the field , through a hedge, through a fence and into the next field ! He returned to me ....eventually .... but he will no doubt chase the next hare he sees even further ! :x I am pretty sure he would also chase deer or sheep and all I can do about it is to try to train him to stop dead ...as if his legs had been chopped off .....when I blow stop on the whistle. I have done this before many times but I was a good bit fitter then !

How I wish I could use an e-collar for "trash breaking !" I still find it fairly easy to train dogs to not chase birds but furred creatures cannot fly away and this pup seems to know animals like hares or maybe deer and sheep might be "reduced into possession !"

The main problem with training a dog not to chase hares and maybe deer is that they are not found very often. Not often enough to train a dog NOT to chase them . The dog and I come upon them unexpectedly only once in every several hunts and when that happens I am in big trouble ! You folk in America are fortunate that you can legally use e-collars.


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The older I get, the better I was !

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