holding point

[pinebrookkennel]

Time to ask a question
Fiirst a little background, we have a 8 month old setter male who is an introvert. Along with that he has range issues
I'm trying to work out. ( None to speak of ! )
We have put him on pigeons and built up his prey drive, now I'm working on range. With this I'm planting launchers
A couple hundred yards out in a cut bean field along edges to force range and search ability. This is working well
I think.
Here is the problem I'm having, I don't want to throw a e collar on him yet because of the issue with him being soft
But while working on range how do I control the length of the point. He will point but will not hold for longer than
about 5 seconds, once he moves I launch the bird. He is whoa broke but not using a collar its hard to inforce at the
range I'm looking for.
Any help would be appreciated

[troutbum13]

I would think it would be easier if you didn't try and train range and break the dog at the same time. I would break him on a checkcord, walk him cross wind into the launcher when he makes scent, wait until he breaks, pop the bird and use the CC to set the dog back.

you can also add a second launcher so that after the dog has been set back, you steady him, and then walk in and pop a 2nd bird.

Launchers are great for steadying a dog, I have never tried to teach range with them. But I certainly wouldn't be running an unbroke dog on a launcher without a CC. One mistake/malfunction and that already soft dog is going to get popped in the face with the launcher.

[slistoe]

You can only work on one thing at a time. If the dog doesn't hunt pointing is not much concern. Fix your range problem and worry about pointing later.

Not sure that I would use launchers as you are though. Dizzy the pigeons and throw them down. You will lose some as fly aways but your result will be better.

[pinebrookkennel]

There is always a cord on him.
That the problem if I handle him with the cord around birds were is he going to get his range form?
I want him to go out and find birds, not walk under or behind my feet and let me lead him to the birds.

[slistoe]

Throw down some birds, take the cord off and let the dog go. Repeat as necessary till he is lighting the field up enough to please you.

[ezzy333]

Throw down some birds, take the cord off and let the dog go. Repeat as necessary till he is lighting the field up enough to please you.

Plus 1. Work on one problem at a time and doing it like this will let him solve his own problem. This will allow him to keep his style while correcting the situation.

Ezzy

[pinebrookkennel]

Thanks all
I'm thinkin now I'm putting the cart in front of the horse. :roll:

[DonF]

I would say throw the birds down too if you didn't have remote launchers. Remote's let you control the bird. Dizzy birds on the ground do what ever it is they are going to do. Make sure if you put birds down, you don't put them to sleep. if you do, your pup will learn to catch everyone! Hold them with their head pointing down and spin their head till their neck doesn't look like it'll hold up their head, neck looks like rubber and they are blinking their eye's. Be at the cover you want to put them in and soon as their dizzy, throw them into the cover. The bird if done well will give you about ten minutes to get your dog back to it. Some will come around sooner and will fly off on you, breaks of the game! Most, when your dog get's back around to them, will be standing looking around and will flush out on your dog.

[pinebrookkennel]

We are using launchers and homing pigeons, after a run last night I think the problem may be that he dosnt like to
Run in cover he can't see? Maybe its a contact thing

[snips]

At this age I would not be concerned with holding point longer. If you see the hunting and range you want then I do not like to overdo pigeon launchers..I like to let them find a good flying quail occasionally to keep interest and not overdo the birds...Let the pup grow up some then put them on a CC and steady them...

[postoakshorthairs]

We are using launchers and homing pigeons, after a run last night I think the problem may be that he dosnt like to
Run in cover he can't see? Maybe its a contact thing

I had a pointer a few years ago that was scared to death of tall cover and wooded areas..especially the woods. Once he found birds in those areas (i planted some good flying quail gradually closer to the woods and heavy cover till they were deep in the middle of both) the problem was solved. It's amazing what their love for birds will help them forget about.

[RayGubernat]

I tend to agree with Scott about getting the range thing the way you want it. You have a very young dog and it is a setter which breed typically takes a bit longer anyway. Trying to do both may well confuse the dog and cause you both to go backwards.

I would focus on ground application in the field and making sure the dog is bird crazy and develops as much boldness and self confidence as it has in its genes.

However, there is absolutely nothing wrong with working on steadiness and handling drills in the yard at the same time. I would do heel/whoa drills in the yard at the same time as you ae doing the ground aplication work in the field. This way you are making progress on both fronts at the same time, while keeping them separated in the dog''s mind.

When the time is right(and the dog will tell you that), the suggestion about bringing the dog into the bird crosswind on a checkcord is how I do it and it works.

When you do set about breaking the dog steady to wing and shot...go at it and stay at it until it is done. Once again...do one job and do it until it is done. If the dog is handling in the field pretty well, if its ground application is where you want it to be AND now the dog is showing you it is ready to be broke, the breaking process might be very quick if the yardwork has done its job.

The dog's range and demeanor may very well change during the breaking process. That happens ...A LOT. Once the dog is steady, working it in the field will allow it to regain its confidence and regain its former ground application, only now it will do so as a steady dog.

PATIENCE and persistence. You must go at the dog's pace and you must teach the dog what you want in a way it can understand.

Good luck to both of you.

RayG

[pinebrookkennel]

Thanks all
We work on heel,whoa drills in the yard on off days due to the soft nature of the dog. I don't want any pressure on him the same
day we run in the field because of the range issue. Doing well on the heel and whoa IMHO. I'v used the paul young method without
The correction at this point. Anyone else still using this framework of heel whoa?

[birddogger]

Thanks all
We work on heel,whoa drills in the yard on off days due to the soft nature of the dog. I don't want any pressure on him the same
day we run in the field because of the range issue. Doing well on the heel and whoa IMHO. I'v used the paul young method without
The correction at this point. Anyone else still using this framework of heel whoa?

I do and I did it this way long before I read the book. It works for me.

Charlie

[pinebrookkennel]

Sorry its paul long. Look @ the book cover

[birddogger]

No problem, I knew who you meant. BTW, Paul Young was the name of a guy who was a dear friend of mine and many others who passed away unexpectadly a few years ago. He wasn't a hunter but he was sure one special guy! Forgive me but the memories started coming back with your post.

Charlie

[RayGubernat]

Sorry its paul long. Look @ the book cover

I do the Paul Long thing as regards heel/whoa also. The only thing I do differently is that I use a pigging string(poor man's version of the Smith wonder lead) instead of a looped checkcord.

I believe the waxed loop string helps to get the point of the lesson across with a minimum of pressure on the dog. The dogs seem to figure out, very quickly, that they are in total control of whether or not they choke themselves.

RayG

[birddogger]

I do it a little different also. I use a prong collar and transition to the e-collar.

Charlie

[trueblu]

I would tell you, as has been said, to concentrate on one thing at a time. If a dog isn't ranging enough to be an effective hunting dog, then range would be my biggest concern. I hate pigeons for unbroke dogs but instead I use hard flying quail that are as flighty as I can find. I want the birds to replicate, as close as possible, a wild bird situation. I would free release a few quail on extreme edges, let the dog point, then when he busts, HOPE, the birds fly where he can't catch them. But, I also wouldn't be stopping the dog and I wouldn't be running him with a checkcord, as that also shortens 'em up. I would run him with a bigger going dog but not to the point he starts tagging. Once he was bird psycho and hunting at, and maybe beyond, the range I wanted, THEN I would begin my yardwork. I've sold a lot of dogs that didn't range well enough to be effective for what I need. Getting 'em pointing and holding is the easy part. Range is most often the problem that is hard to overcome IMHO.

[pinebrookkennel]

A couple of you replied, the dog will tell you when there ready (to steady)
What are we looking for specifically? Slamming on point, cutting into bird scent,

[SetterNut]

You can also run him in that field without birds some of the time. He may stretch out a little looking for birds. But also run him in some thin cover where he will be able to see you at a longer distance. He will likely extend his range.

I have a setter that is now 3 years old. he is what you are calling a soft dog. His range was pretty short the first year, then farther the 2nd year, and now he is out there where I wanted him (100-200 depending on cover). I think it is pretty typical of some dogs, the range doesn't show up until that get a little more mature.

He is still a baby, don't push to fast.

[SHORTFAT]

Eventually I think the birds will teach him what he needs to learn about holding the point... more birds never hurts... I find a dog is alot easier to train with a nose full of feathers. Worry about the range and the holding point will come later. I am working through the holding point issue myself... or I should say the dog is... :roll:

[woodsman]

I have a German Shorthair that when we first started working in the field he would not range well either. After doing some reading and some serious thinking, I believe it all comes down to confidence. I had my breakthrough watching my 16 month old son. He would walk out in the yard a few feet then come back. Then he would walk further after a while and still come back and as long as I didnt say anything and he was having fun everything was good and he was building his range; finally he made it all the way to the swingset 100' from the deck.

Your dog is in the same situation. As stated before, dizzy some pigeons, and place them out in a large open field where the dog can see you and just let him go; you stay put, but let the dog do his thing. After he sees that there are birds out there and it is more of a play time for him rather than a training session, that dog will definately grow some legs and take to the field. Another thing that you can try is take a friend to the field with you and have him walk the dog on lead 100-150 yards from you and turn the dog loose. Then you call the dog and once the dog comes, have your buddy call the dog back etc. This will show the dog that there is nothing in between you and your buddy that is going to get him, make a game out of it. Again, its all about confidence, work on building that and you will have the foundation for a good dog no matter what the breed or reason for training.