what are your goals in a training session?

[ultracarry]

Because of the marking birds thread this came to mind. When you are out training your dog what are you trying to accomplish and is this based on the level your dog is at or is it a general philosophy ? And what are your final goals with the dog?

I have been told to never set a dog up for failure, end on a positive note, and after doing that for a year my Outlook has changed to throwing a wrench in the plan once in a while.. and setting the dog up to fail.

[topher40]

It all depends on the dog. I like to break all mine steady to wing and shot so whatever the dogs age/experience I have this end goal in mind with the way to get them there the fastest.

[Redfishkilla]

To take them home very tired.

[gonehuntin']

To " never set a dog up to fail" is greatly misunderstood. Every time you proof a dog, like steady to flush, you are setting him up for potential failure. I think that "setting a dog up for failure" means you test him on a situation that he has not been thoroughly trained on. That I never do.

As far as goals per session, I have a training plan, sequenced, that I follow every day. I plan my session, then train my plan. I always try to be realistic is what I hope to accomplish and I always end on a positive note.

That's about all the advice I can give you. Each day is different, each dog is different, each goal is different. Let me give you an example. Let's say I'm working on steady to flush. First time I flush a bird, the dog goes and tips himself upside down on the check cord. I will have three birds planted. Second time, he takes off and again tips over. Third time, he takes a couple steps and stops. I'm happy. I'll refine each thing as the days go on.

Be realistic in what you expect and never work a dog until he's bored or too tired to comply.

[brad27]

1.determine what you want the finished product to look like.
2. build a plan to get you to the finished product.
3. follow said plan.

in a nutshell.....

[ultracarry]

Good posts. Keep em coming ......

[pointshootretrieve]

To " never set a dog up to fail" is greatly misunderstood. Every time you proof a dog, like steady to flush, you are setting him up for potential failure. I think that "setting a dog up for failure" means you test him on a situation that he has not been thoroughly trained on. That I never do.

As far as goals per session, I have a training plan, sequenced, that I follow every day. I plan my session, then train my plan. I always try to be realistic is what I hope to accomplish and I always end on a positive note.

That's about all the advice I can give you. Each day is different, each dog is different, each goal is different. Let me give you an example. Let's say I'm working on steady to flush. First time I flush a bird, the dog goes and tips himself upside down on the check cord. I will have three birds planted. Second time, he takes off and again tips over. Third time, he takes a couple steps and stops. I'm happy. I'll refine each thing as the days go on.

Be realistic in what you expect and never work a dog until he's bored or too tired to comply.

You contradict yourself in your post. If your dog is dumping itself at the flush on the checkcord it was set up for failure you are breaking at that point and not training. Now if the dog was taught WOAH properly it could be stopped when moving on the flush rather than dumping itself on the checkcord, it doesn't take many sessions for a dog who has been taught WOAH properly to get it that they are not to be chasing. I think a lot of people confuse breaking and training.

Now the original poster asked what your goals are in a session. I always go into a session with a goal in mind and that goal naturally varies with what dog I am working. The dogs attitude and focus at that particular time pretty much dictates how far we go and whether we push or back off. If my pups being a fuitcake and is all over the place I don't bother trying to accomplish anything new I focus on getting something he knows done 100% a few reps and quit. So I guess it is a great idea to go into a session with a plan but DO NOT get frustrated when things go south and be realisitic.

[slistoe]

I have been told to never set a dog up for failure, end on a positive note, and after doing that for a year my Outlook has changed to throwing a wrench in the plan once in a while.. and setting the dog up to fail.

Do you mean you are devising ways to intentionally cause the dog to fail so you may punish it or are you simply progressing the training so the dog will be successful in increasing difficult situations.

My general philosophy is to sequence for success and plan for failure.

[brad27]

simply progressing the training so the dog will be successful in increasing difficult situations.

this one.
same thing i was talking about in the other thread with you and DonF.

[gonehuntin']

You contradict yourself in your post. If your dog is dumping itself at the flush on the checkcord it was set up for failure you are breaking at that point and not training.

It was a simple example.

[SetterNut]

I have goals and a plan for each of my dogs. I want to end with a dog that is stw&s.
As far as setting a dog up for failure, that is not something that I do. But there are transition point (ex: moving from STW&S with and then without a CC) where there is more of a chance that the dog will fail. But if you are going to ever finish training your dog you have to take that step when you think the dog is ready to handle it successfully.

[Chukar12]

I use a methodology with some bench marks that I learned from others and i break it down into very small integrated pieces. I like to train; so I have found methods that i can start young and do a lot of. The cumulative benchmarks come together in the bigger goal. I go slow and leave myself an out to go back to the last integrated step in every days training, I do this because I am not as confident in my ability as some trainers who have had their hands on countless dogs. If I go slow, leave myself those outs and make each day just two things; an improvement over yesterday and another piece to the bigger picture I have a much better chance of not getting ahead of myself, or trapped with no safe place to back up to....

[RayGubernat]

There are goals and there are goals. If you have a clear idea of what you want your dog to do when its training is completed...that is an end goal. All other goals are interim goals and should be structured to help you to reach your end goal.

There are goals related to theindividual skills, such as response to a particular command such as heel, come or a turncommand or a particular situation such as backing, taking an edge, pointing, etc. These are also end goals in a sense because you will need to have a clear idea of what you want the dog to do when a particular command is isuued or a particular situation is encountered.

Then there are the goals we should set for just exactly what we are setting out to accomplish...today. Every single time we go out to do some training with our dogt we should have a plan in mind that includes what we want to accomplish...today, exactly how we are going to go about the training, what tools and training aids we are going to use, what can go wrong and how you should handle it when something does go wrong and .... MOST importantly, when we have done what we set out to do. In other words...When to quit.

A pro once told me something I will pass along: Every time you want to go out and put your hands on your dog...plan your work. Every single day...every single time. Then go out and work your plan.

As far as setting your dog up for success... that is the best way, I think. However, throwing curveballs at the dog and tempting it to break in training is also setting the dog up for success...success outside the training field.

As an example, if a dog has never had a bird flushed in its face...how do you know how the dog will react when and if it happens in the field? You don't know because..well... the dog doesn't know either. So you set up a situation where the bird is in the dog's face . Then you see what the dog does, how it reacts and if it needs some direction, correction or reinforcement...you do it right then, right there and help the dog to learn to handle the situation in a proper manner. The more of these potentially esplosive situations you train and test the dog to handle, the more likely the dog will handle whatever gets thrown its way with confidence. That, to me, is training for success.

It is, or should be a given that the dog you are going to set up to have a bird flushed in its face, had better be pretty much rock solid under normal circumstances. To do otherwise is not training for failure...it is asking for disaster.

To me, bombproofing a dog is an integral part of setting the dog up for success because you are there...ready and waiting for...anticipating actually... whatever can happen with a clear plan as to how to handle whatever goes down.

RayG

[t-setter]

Some great insight on this thread. Ray, would you mind providing a detailed plan for a training session that you would do to teach a dog to come to you. I've been working my 18-month-old setter on a check cord, with e-collar (low stim if he doesn't respond immediately) for about three months. He does well in the yard, but forget it if there are any distractions around (cats, songbirds, etc.). During a typical session on "here," how many repititions would you do and for how long, and would you focus primarily on that one command or would you work in other commands?

[RayGubernat]

Some great insight on this thread. Ray, would you mind providing a detailed plan for a training session that you would do to teach a dog to come to you. I've been working my 18-month-old setter on a check cord, with e-collar (low stim if he doesn't respond immediately) for about three months. He does well in the yard, but forget it if there are any distractions around (cats, songbirds, etc.). During a typical session on "here," how many repititions would you do and for how long, and would you focus primarily on that one command or would you work in other commands?

I should preface my remarks by saying that I genereally start with a pup and thatis messing around in the fenced in back yard, playing and I do not call the pup but rather I "invite" the pup to come and play or come and get a treat with gestures, open arms,getting down on one knee, by calling its name, etc. That usually gets the pup running pell mell for me. When the pup is running toward me, I then give the come command. If it does not run toward me, I do not say the word.

My initial "work" on the come command involves two people and two long checkcords. With youngsters two of us sit apart, each holding a CC whcih is attached to the dog's flat collar. I will call the dog to me, clap hands, encourge , whatever, just as I did with the free running pup, but if the dog does not move to me, I will rell it in, give praise, perhaps a tret an pet the dog unmtil the person on the other end of theother checkcord gives the come command. Then my hands go still and the dog either goes to the other person or gets reeled in. We try to make it a game and fun, but, bottom line, the dog has no option. The goal is to have the youngster running from one person to the other head up and happy.

I probably do fifteen or twenty reps each time I do this drill and then would put the dog up for perhaps a half hour. I do try to quit when the youngster seems to be having fun and running back and forth with its head up.

If I were by myself, I would do pretty much the same thing, except the checkcord would be run through an eye that was fastened into a tree or post. I would graduate to the checkcord alone, with the dog on a stop or stay or whoa,whicheer suits you and then issue a come command and reel the dog in. when they know you are gonna reel them in they usually do not fight it, but they come in. When they know you are gonna reel them in quickly, they usually come in just a little bit faster than you can reel.

I try not to go from one behavior training exercise to another one without some time in between for the dog to soak in what they just learned. This is especdially true when just starting out with a particular command. I do not want to confuse or overload the dog when it is trying to learn what I am trying to teach. A pat on the flank, a "good dog' and some time in the kennel usually does the job.

I am a very "hands on" kind of person so I do not typically overlay the e-collar until the dog is well along in its training on any given behavior or command.

With an older dog that knows the commands I might alternate "come" with "kennel" in the yard and "come" with a sequence that uses first a "send out " command or signal... a "whoa" and then a "come", with the dog on a long CC. the CC would first be attached to the flat collar, then to a prong collar and then replaced by the e-collar.

A lot depends on just where the dog is in its training and what I feel that particular dog can handle in terms of pressure. Only you can tell what is going on in your dog's head.

Of course when the dog knows the commands well, I will often go from one to the next to the next in fairly rapid sequence as this can build some serious confidence in the dog. When they punch out a series of behaviors, with crispness and on cue, you can literally see the dog swell up with pride and self confidence. With an experienced dog I will sometimes "mess with their head"a little trying to get them to commit prematurely. they usually pick up on the fact that I am gaming them and trying to make them mess up...then they pay even closer attention because, just like me...they hate to lose.

This is pretty much what I will do. Sorry for skipping around, but it is hard to try an cover all the bases. Hope some of this is of use to you in your individual situation.

RayG

[DonF]

Goals of a training session or a training plan? I have only one goal in a session and that is to end with a good note.

[honestcharlie56]

Dog is having fun while learning what to do. If I could get that down..........oh my gawd I'd feel great.

[proudag08]

I like to train; so I have found methods that i can start young and do a lot of...

As someone about to pic up a pup can you give me some examples of these methods you speak of?