holding point/ranging

[tompetey]

I have a 8month old GSP great dog with awesome drive my question is how can I let her rang if she wont hold point quite long enough for me to get there to flush the bird, we have been working on whoa training and any other time if I say whoa she stops and does good but the bird has to much pull yet and she will break so I try and keep her a little closer in the field but I dont want to she just wants to go! this dog is out of cooper kojac and clown she is a great dog

[DonF]

Remote release traps. That's you out of the equasion and leaves the dog to deaal with the bird. Don't try to whoa the dog, don't say a word. Just pop the bird if the dog moves at all. I recently goe a new one from Lion Country. No problems with it and it set off from a long ways out. Were I you and if you can afford it, get a three trap set. You do your part and it will do it's.

[tompetey]

yes I have a dogtra remote launcher I have been giving the dog a few birds a week and trying to pop it as soon as the dog moves should I have her on a leash? and do not try and whoa her just dont say a word?

[ezzy333]

yes I have a dogtra remote launcher I have been giving the dog a few birds a week and trying to pop it as soon as the dog moves should I have her on a leash? and do not try and whoa her just dont say a word?

You need to remember this pup is just 8 mo.old. That is the age where she be just starting om a lot of the training and I sure wouldn't put pressure on her to be steady. She will learn with experience.

Ezzy

[DonF]

yes I have a dogtra remote launcher I have been giving the dog a few birds a week and trying to pop it as soon as the dog moves should I have her on a leash? and do not try and whoa her just dont say a word?

I gave up on holding a leash or check cord when working dogs on birds, did that because of what the traps can do. I suspect your waiting to see if your dog will stop on it's own before poping the bird. Or your are trying to stop her with a whoa; stop that if you are. If that's it, stop doing that. Know exactly where the planted bird is and as soon as your dog indicates he's in the scent cone, pop the bird. Try to get him on it cross wind and maybe 10 or 15 yards off of it. If it comes at the bird fron down wind, it will smell the bird much to soon and you'll end up with a dog that point's from to far off ti hold the bird. He'll have the right idea when he's done and really wild birds will teach him how close he can really get. Don't give him a chance to point and don;t talk to him. It's between him and the bird. Won't be to long and your dog will beat you to it. It'll hit point while your still watching for it. Do not pop the trap unless he moves anything. Try to go around the front and watch him closely. At that point what will usually happen is it will glance over at you. Pop the bird as soon as he does and shut up. It is still between him and the bird. Don't use your trap to try to train the dog, use the trap to do with the bird all the thing's that a wild bird does. If your dog is going by the bird upwind and is within ten yards or so, pop the bird. In that situation the dog would most likely bump the bird without scenting it. The whole trick is you have to think like a wild bird but you also have control of the bird.

[ST8 UPPOINTERS]

ezzy, One great feature of the launcher is it puts no pressure on the dog. As long as when your training you stay out of the picture its just between the dog and the bird i see no pressure being applied, just good experience for the dog!

[DonF]

ezzy, One great feature of the launcher is it puts no pressure on the dog. As long as when your training you stay out of the picture its just between the dog and the bird i see no pressure being applied, just good experience for the dog!

You are absolutely right. I got my first set, Wag Ags, about 25yrs ago. Didn't take to long and I quit check cording into birds. Absolutely no pressure if you use them right. You never open your mouth and the dogs learns.

[Wenaha]

You are absolutely right. I got my first set, Wag Ags, about 25yrs ago. Didn't take to long and I quit check cording into birds. Absolutely no pressure if you use them right. You never open your mouth and the dogs learns.

Correct. And if you are whoaing your dog on birds you are...

1. interfering with the dog-bird dynamic, which is not a good thing.

2. running the risk of teaching your dog to whoa into a point. He needs to learn for himself. He may never learn to be an honest dog if you do this.

[tompetey]

thanks for the advise! So what I need to do is let the dog do her thing when I plant the bird in the launcher and say nothing but when the dog moves trip it and release the bird, and just do whoa traing in the yard?

[ezzy333]

ezzy, One great feature of the launcher is it puts no pressure on the dog. As long as when your training you stay out of the picture its just between the dog and the bird i see no pressure being applied, just good experience for the dog!

I agree completely but thought it was important to pointout when the pup is that young. Let it learn without any type of pressure to perform how we think it should.

Ezzy

[tompetey]

here she is my first GSP 8 month old Josie I cant believe the amount of drive these dogs have I have had labs in the past but they were not quite as much of a hand full these fun

[nooblet]

Personally, I think it's a crap shoot. If you pop a bird every time the dog moves, it will inhibit the dog's ability to manage a moving bird (which they are most of the time) - just like whoa training. My dog will lock up, say, 3 or fout times on a bird as it is moving until she actually gets the bird to stop and sit still. If I were to pop a bird every time she moved it would stop her from trying to find the scent again once the bird has moved (and the scent cone moves with it). I mean, dont forget...your dog is a better hunter than you are.

The dog will learn if it doesnt stay steady it wont get a bird in the mouth. That's the whole game.

Noob

[ST8 UPPOINTERS]

That's why u relocate your dog..Imo if I hunted a ton of wild running pheasant i might tend to agree tho.

[slistoe]

Personally, I think it's a crap shoot. If you pop a bird every time the dog moves, it will inhibit the dog's ability to manage a moving bird (which they are most of the time) - just like whoa training. My dog will lock up, say, 3 or fout times on a bird as it is moving until she actually gets the bird to stop and sit still. If I were to pop a bird every time she moved it would stop her from trying to find the scent again once the bird has moved (and the scent cone moves with it). I mean, dont forget...your dog is a better hunter than you are.

The dog will learn if it doesnt stay steady it wont get a bird in the mouth. That's the whole game.

Noob

There is a pretty big difference between a dog that is moving while in the scent cone (standing a pigeon in a launcher) and a dog moving when the scent has disappeared (pheasant has run away). It really doesn't take much sense on the part of the dog to know the difference.

[Neil]

I must not know as much about dog training as I thought.

If I understand how you are using the launchers; you don't whoa, checkcord, or use the e-collar to restrain the dog, you just let the flush train it.

With the dunderheads I have trained it would take a lot of birds, I mean about 2 years worth of 4 or 5 a day.

Would someone please tell me the harm in whoaing a dog after he has established point and reinforcing it with an e-collar?

I do remember training on all wild birds, but even then, we had ways of teaching the dog to stop on first scent.

Just trying to learn,

Neil

[birddogger]

Would someone please tell me the harm in whoaing a dog after he has established point and reinforcing it with an e-collar?

I am with ya. I understand the concept behind letting the flush teach the dog but I have never had any negative affects from enforcing the whoa command after an establised point. In fact, it has been the shortest way to the end result for me.

Charlie

[snips]

If I see all I want in a young dog, I take them off birds about this age and let them mature a bit,,Then when about 12-14 mo old I will start CC them on launchers and get them steady. I think launchers are good to a point, but I use them only enough to teach them steadyness and I move them to quail. Once a dog will let me flush and stand and watch a bird fly, they are on quail from then on...I do not have the option of wild birds here, which would be the best thing for a dog that age, so to stop bad habits I just let them mature then start their training...

[Winchey]

"I do remember training on all wild birds, but even then, we had ways of teaching the dog to stop on first scent."

Would appreciate it if you shared some.


I also think we are talking about a young dog learning to get birds pointed by using the launchers to teach. I think that is quite different then teaching an older dog to stand his birds through the flush and shot.

[brad27]

I also think we are talking about a young dog learning to get birds pointed by using the launchers to teach. I think that is quite different then teaching an older dog to stand his birds through the flush and shot.

yep, this is an 8 month old dog. no need to start putting manners on it yet. OP, shoot the birds she points and lets you flush, don't shoot the ones she puts up. She'll learn. Don't expect to shoot a lot of birds over her this season. Bring her along right, don't rush things and you'll be happier in the end.

[tompetey]

Well just got back from giving the dog a bird today I let her just run and hunt but had to keep her in our area but for the most part just let her do her thing, the wind was wrong for us today so when she hit the scent she was almost on top of it she her tail wagged for a sec then she locked herself up and stod there on point till I got there I never said a word and released the bird as soon as she made any movement over all I think me not trying to whoa her helped we will go again tomorrow

[Neil]

"I do remember training on all wild birds, but even then, we had ways of teaching the dog to stop on first scent."

Would appreciate it if you shared some.

No, you would not appreciate it, you would be appalled, as I am when I think back. With modern equipment there is no need to even discuss it.

My point was that even when I could get in to 15 - 20 coveys a day, some dogs would never start holding until the importance was explained to them.

Nenil

[DonF]

Well just got back from giving the dog a bird today I let her just run and hunt but had to keep her in our area but for the most part just let her do her thing, the wind was wrong for us today so when she hit the scent she was almost on top of it she her tail wagged for a sec then she locked herself up and stod there on point till I got there I never said a word and released the bird as soon as she made any movement over all I think me not trying to whoa her helped we will go again tomorrow

You have made a normal mistake with the trap. You waited to long to pop the bird hoping the dog would get it right. When to dog encroachs on the bird, up wind or down wind, pop the bird.

You knew where you put the trap so don't let the dog get that close! "She was almost on top of it" A wild bird will not let happen.

[tompetey]

Good point on that one, I never thought of that. I am still learning like the dog I just don't want to screw things up with her I think she has great potential

[tompetey]

took the dog out again today with a pigeon in launcher just let her go again she found it pointed when we were about 80 yards from her I didnt say a work just walked up to her she stood right there and I stood there to I didnt release the bird till I saw her ear twitch I was a happy camper not saying anything seems to be working!

[Gordon Guy]

I think when we let the dog try to figure it out on their own, by popping the bird in the launcher when the dog moves, we are assuming that the dog has more point than chase and that the dog will eventually figure it out. Those are two unknowns that may or may not be true. But if we show the dog what is expected by teaching whoa or to stand still (with no verbal command if that's your style) until released, then introduce birds into the equation and taught to stand/point the bird until flushed, generalizing the behavior and then re-enforcing it in the field, the process is shortened and also provides a method of correction in case a dog back pedals in their training. I realize there are many different ways of getting to point "B". Also, the use of a check cord allows more control of the situation, for one good reason, by keeping the dog safely away from the launcher. I've had dogs get too close to the launcher, just because that's the line they took and not because they roaded in on the bird, the training had to stop, put the dog back in the box, move the launcher and redo the training scenerio. A check cord which controls the situation saves time.

My $.02

Tom

[nooblet]

Neil,

I think that question was for me - but not sure. To be clear, I only used launchers for stop to flush training. That's it. After that it was all birds that were on the ground (perhaps feet tied - but still on the ground). My dog was steady to wing, shot and kill (broke not perfect) in about 8 months or so (and that's going to get on birds in the off season about once a month). It totally works but is a very different method than whoa training. I do use a check cord and my dogs are always on a collar.

This is the dude that trained me. http://www.higginsgundogs.com/

Some aspects of that site are under construction.

Check out some of the videos.

[Neil]

For the last 10 years or so I have been using the Buddy Stick instead of the check cord, and I too use the launchers to train stop to flush, so I guess I just misunderstood.

The way I read it, you just turn the dog loose and keep popping birds until he figures it out and points, just saying it might work, but with my dogs it would take awhile,

Neil

[DonF]

For the last 10 years or so I have been using the Buddy Stick instead of the check cord, and I too use the launchers to train stop to flush, so I guess I just misunderstood.

The way I read it, you just turn the dog loose and keep popping birds until he figures it out and points, just saying it might work, but with my dogs it would take awhile,

Neil

I doubt it would take any where near the time you might think. All depends on how you use the launcher.

[slistoe]

For the last 10 years or so I have been using the Buddy Stick instead of the check cord, and I too use the launchers to train stop to flush, so I guess I just misunderstood.

The way I read it, you just turn the dog loose and keep popping birds until he figures it out and points, just saying it might work, but with my dogs it would take awhile,

Neil

I doubt it would take any where near the time you might think. All depends on how you use the launcher.

You sure? I think he is saying that it depends on the dog. And I would agree. Without a control on the chase some dogs will take far too long to figure things out. One of the problems that Delmar Smith brought with his popularization of the new age mindset in pointing dog training - we can make usable bird dogs out of that which would never have been bred in the early years of breed development.

So, if you have Setters and Pointers from traditional AA breeding just pop the bird a few times and the dog will be online with the program. If you don't - be prepared to add a little something to the program.

[Winchey]

I agree, I would think it has a lot to do with how much point the dog has. There are after all lots of non pointing breeds, and probably some pointing breeds that have been on 100's or thousands of wild birds that don't point.