To train or not to train?

[shtank]

I've been reading this forum for about a month (as I eagerly wait the arrival of my GSP pup Xmas morning) and I feel as though what I'm reading is the opposite of what i was planning on doing.
A lot of members say not to train basic obedience command and let them be independent. But that sounds like a dog I would NOT want to keep in the house (and this will defiantly be a house dog). I know everyone recommends a video or book, but I'm low on funds due to Xmas. So I'm hoping for some friendly advice on what to do from day one when it comes to basic training.

[Winchey]

Train the pup the day you get him, just have low expectations and keep it positive and fun. Just don't start formal obedience with a puppy.

[displaced_texan]

Train the pup the day you get him, just have low expectations and keep it positive and fun. Just don't start formal obedience with a puppy.

This.

[shtank]

Train the pup the day you get him, just have low expectations and keep it positive and fun. Just don't start formal obedience with a puppy.

What do consider "formal obedience training"

[RoostersMom]

I have 4 inside birddogs. I have decided to teach obedience early on with the following caveats: I train obedience in the house, not much in the field while they're small (say before 5 months old). I do teach "sit" but I have had one of my dogs sit while on point during early bird training, she defaulted to the command she knew best - now I teach "whoa" just as much as "sit". All my dogs know "off" (off the couch/counter/chair you beastie), they all know "blanket" means to go to their bed (I don't teach that one to pups until about 5 months old, but you could do it earlier). All my dogs know "out" - as in get out of this room right now before I loose my temper. We love "out". They are all crate trained - which is the number one help for training a young pup in the house IMO.

But, they all can run around in the field every day like crazies too. I always temper the very short obedience training with lots of outdoor interaction and lots of birds. I don't do any obedience training as it relates to birds/hunting or retrieving while they're little. Just basic good dog behavior in the house is what we work on. The only exception IMO is "here" and I teach that one from day one with treats and fun talk. I get more serious about it as the pup starts to range more in the field (4-6 months old). I try NOT to use it much in the field because I don't want to shorten their range - but sometimes you need to use it.

The Perfect Start DVD is a good one, I always recommend it - it would be worth not getting another Christmas present to get that one for your pup.

[Redfishkilla]

Rooster's post is spot on. But rather than use "no" for undesirable behavior I use "aaaa". No sounds like whoa and can confuse the dog when first starting the whoa command.

You're one lucky guy getting a puppy for Christmas, what a gift!! The very first thing you can work on Christmas morning is the dog’s name. When he starts responding to his name you can say "here" and reward with a treat when pup comes. Have a crate and put pup in there for naps and at night. Man I want another dog. I'd definitely thank the person getting you a puppy.

[ultracarry]

I did whoa instead of sit also. I bought ky brother in law and wife trying to teach my dog to sit a few days ago and they were surprised when I got ticked.

If you have never had a GSP puppy in your home there are going to be some times where you think "what the he11 did I get myself into". Those are normal and will pass if you get a good bird dog. I still think about the freedom and money I had before this dog took over my life.

PS this is the only dog I have had to punch square between the eyes as a puppy. Bit me once on the side and said no and she sat there with a smirk...15 minutes later she did it again and drew blood. My immediate reaction was above and it never happened again.

[DonF]

Everyone is right and everyone is wrong. You will find in a few years that the right way is the one that works for you, no matter what anyone else says. I wouldn't get to hard into formal obedience but I do teach my dogs to sit in the on command. Most guy's don't do that for fear of having a confussed pup sit in whoa training. Could happen I guess but I've never had the problem. Know a guy up in Wash. had it happen though. He came all the way down here because he couldn't figure out what I was telling him on the phone. Four hr trip and the problem was fixed in about ten min.

If you do go ahead and train sit and if it does happen that the pup sits on whoa, come back and say something. Fix is a lot easier to do than explain. Also keep in mind that if the pup does start sitting on whoa it is most certainly a safe position for a dog that doesn't understand what you want or that is getting to much pressure.

[GUNDOGS]

peoples priorities may differ between those who have a kennel dog and one who has them in their home but i will tell you what I DO, it works for me and may not be what others do depending on their priority or their situation.. i "teach" socialization first and foremost, obedience, commands, field walks and on lead walks are all done in moderation and how often or how long a lesson may be depends on each individual pup, none are the same..

1) i teach their name
2) i teach come (i bend down inviting pup to come and as he/she comes towards me i say the word "come" with lots of praise)
3) i teach kennel ( when given the command "kennel" i give them a push into it with a small treat waiting for them inside so going into the crate is a good thing and they look forward to it when asked to go into it, later take the treat away after the command is learned)
4) i teach whoa and ok (every time i go to feed the pup i push it back and say "whoa" and make it wait, whoa time is just for a second to start with then expected wait time increases as they are get older then i say ok to release, before going out the door say "whoa" and make them wait then say ok releasing to go out, on a walk say "whoa" and stop then say "ok" and start to walk again, steady the pup on its crate and say "whoa" and if the pup moves knock the crate with my knee and say it again)
5) i teach off (i put the pup on a check cord when in the house to teach boundries by being able to enforce "off" if pup goes to jump on the furniture or jump up on the counters, table or people by giving a quick tug on the cc)

all of these things are done in moderation and are very short quick lessons to start and increase with age but still are introduced and started day 1, pups are looking for what is allowed or not allowed almost immediately when you bring them home so some lessons/obedience are very important to begin and some can wait depending on how soon they become an issue..of course all lessons are short and more time is spent on having fun and playing with the pup then anything but i still feel if you just let a pup be a pup and wait on the obedience/lessons you will find yourself with a 5 or 6 month old hyper dog with issues who is confused and all that can be avoided by simply beginning things early in moderation while having fun, not all lessons require "pressure" you can make them fun and the pup will learn while having fun......ruth

[DogNewbie]

Creating a great house dog and a great hunting dog is very doable, you just have to get the pup to understand what the different expectations are for each location. Pee in the house is a no no, pee in the field is ok. Run is the house is a no no, run in the field is ok. Range far away from me in the field, stick close at home/on a leash. That sort of thing. What will help with that, I think, is getting the pup in an open field early so it can run around as it pleases. Creating the association with the field as being a place where the pup is able to follow it's own nose instead of following your every move is important IMO. It'll be easier to get a hunting/ranging/independent pup to learn to adapt to house life than get a bootlicking house pup to adapt to hunting in the field. But early field time this isn't a time for training. You could do bird intro if you wanted but I think the main thing is just letting the pup build confidence and independence while in the field. Just let him have fun. House training is pretty basic. When the dog does something that displeases you, make sure it understands that and associate a command with it as well. I use no. The first couple times I caught my pup peeing in the house I said no and gave him a little poke to the chest, which he interpreted as me playing with him. Not a good thing. You have to think like a dog and make the consequence to the pups actions uncomfortable enough that the pup doesn't want to do them anymore. For me a spray bottle worked great. The pup really didn't like being sprayed in the face and quickly associated the command no with stopping whatever he is doing. I'm interested to see what people say about puppy proofing a house. I hid all my electric chords and anything he could eat, but I left my shoes and other larger, chewable items out and just kept a close eye on the pup the first couple weeks. Any time he even sniffed a shoe I'd let him know that is unacceptable and he now leaves them be. Only chews his own toys.

[Chukar12]

I believe very strongly in early behavioral shaping for gun dogs...and depending on what you want the finished product to be in an older dog the restrictions you apply at a young age (and depending on the dog) can have a lasting effect in latter years. Some restrictions or commands that are applied too young for traditional house dogs seem to have a reactive effect later. For instance, if you teach sit or come first and foremost verbally and your puppy is rewarded for it in the imprinting stages they may default to that "behavior" under pressure later. This is by no means always the case but when it happens it can be frustrating to undo.

In Huntsmith 1 and 2, or in Hickox Great Beginnings, even the Dog Whisperer sort of stuff...you will find them introducing behaviors without a great deal of human compulsion and a notable lack of verbal direction. They use tools like the chain gang, check cords, leads, and training tables to do some of the work. In most scenarios the dog is being taught to learn and how to garner rewards by avoiding risk or discomfort and it isn't necessarily coming from the human it will need to trust later in advanced training. The most complete view to me if you would like to follow a complete program is Huntsmith 1 and 2...there is plenty of to do with young dogs to keep a new trainer and a new pup busy and it builds a foundation for later. I would reccomend, and always do when I sell a puppy that the videos preceed the dog and that the whole family watches a couple of times.

[Doodle]

First, a huge congratulations on such a wonderful Christmas gift! I will repeat much of what was said above. Training starts as soon as they get here. With that said, it is not boot camp. The simple basics that will pay you back 100x's down the road. First a puppy has to have a feeding, potty, nap/time out/bedtime schedule. It should know it's name, not because you are begging it to comply with a command that it may or may not know yet. I like to use their name & here/come with rewards often i.e. when it is time to go outside (usually something they like). I also use no for any unwanted behavior. This command does not shake the pictures off my walls but it is my deep voice. I don't know how people survive without crate/kennel command. I find that puppies get very stimulated and wound up at times. I find this to often be before they need a puppy nap. I try to teach the kennel command then. I do not teach sit at this time but may start the whoa training at feeding times maybe after the pup has been in the house for a week. You are working with a very short attention span so whatever you do keep is short and simple. We do even use a word/command to get your business done outside and praise directly after they have completed the task. Remember you are going to be the pack leader. It will look up to you. If you are scared it will likely be scared. Try not to react to "stuff" that happens. As soon as possible, socialize the pup aka expose it to as much of life as you can. The ladies at the local Tractor Supply still love to see my "pup" come in. They run to see who will give her a biscuit first. The also know she is not allowed to accept the treat without the proper behavior. Ask questions as often as you need to. Please post pictures. We all have a soft spot for a pup.

[shtank]

Wow! Thanks for all the great advice. I do feel more clear on the independent thing (Independent in the field not at home) I'm thinking of not teaching the sit command.

Here is some pics at 4 weeks old

[harvester28]

the most important thing is to remain patient. you must remember you are his teacher and always stay positive. never punish him for a command he doesnt know yet. he will lose his confidence.

[GUNDOGS]

sooo cute, i love puppy breath do you have a name picked out yet ...ruth

[shtank]

We are going with Jessabelle or Cabela Rose. Either way her nick name will be Belle or Bella...or jessa


Still early though!

[shtank]

peoples priorities may differ between those who have a kennel dog and one who has them in their home but i will tell you what I DO, it works for me and may not be what others do depending on their priority or their situation.. i "teach" socialization first and foremost, obedience, commands, field walks and on lead walks are all done in moderation and how often or how long a lesson may be depends on each individual pup, none are the same..

1) i teach their name
2) i teach come (i bend down inviting pup to come and as he/she comes towards me i say the word "come" with lots of praise)
3) i teach kennel ( when given the command "kennel" i give them a push into it with a small treat waiting for them inside so going into the crate is a good thing and they look forward to it when asked to go into it, later take the treat away after the command is learned)
4) i teach whoa and ok (every time i go to feed the pup i push it back and say "whoa" and make it wait, whoa time is just for a second to start with then expected wait time increases as they are get older then i say ok to release, before going out the door say "whoa" and make them wait then say ok releasing to go out, on a walk say "whoa" and stop then say "ok" and start to walk again, steady the pup on its crate and say "whoa" and if the pup moves knock the crate with my knee and say it again)
5) i teach off (i put the pup on a check cord when in the house to teach boundries by being able to enforce "off" if pup goes to jump on the furniture or jump up on the counters, table or people by giving a quick tug on the cc)

all of these things are done in moderation and are very short quick lessons to start and increase with age but still are introduced and started day 1, pups are looking for what is allowed or not allowed almost immediately when you bring them home so some lessons/obedience are very important to begin and some can wait depending on how soon they become an issue..of course all lessons are short and more time is spent on having fun and playing with the pup then anything but i still feel if you just let a pup be a pup and wait on the obedience/lessons you will find yourself with a 5 or 6 month old hyper dog with issues who is confused and all that can be avoided by simply beginning things early in moderation while having fun, not all lessons require "pressure" you can make them fun and the pup will learn while having fun......ruth

Do you not teach the sit command????

[DogNewbie]

I think the most annoying part of not teaching sit is that you're constantly having to explain to people that meet your dog and try to get the pup to sit that you haven't trained it to sit yet. But the way I looked at it is I don't need the pup to sit to be a house dog and if it might make things easier when teaching it to hold point down the road, what's the harm in holding off on sit. I'd just teach whoa first and foremost. Besides, whenever sit would be beneficial in the house, whoa will work just as well (i.e. people at the door or something.)

Also, I think I remember you saying something about your pup eventually being a duck dog (or maybe that was another thread, but I'll warn you anyway.) You should read up on gun intro and maybe even hold off on bring the pup duck hunting until after it's first season of upland. I've heard stories of dogs that were thought to be completely conditioned to gun fire becoming gun shy their first time duck hunting. You're generally using loud guns in close proximity to the dog with multiple people shooting multiple shots at the same time while surrounded by walls that allow the sound to ricochet around the blind. Makes sense that that could freak a dog out if it's not prepared for it.

Tim

[GUNDOGS]

peoples priorities may differ between those who have a kennel dog and one who has them in their home but i will tell you what I DO, it works for me and may not be what others do depending on their priority or their situation.. i "teach" socialization first and foremost, obedience, commands, field walks and on lead walks are all done in moderation and how often or how long a lesson may be depends on each individual pup, none are the same..

1) i teach their name
2) i teach come (i bend down inviting pup to come and as he/she comes towards me i say the word "come" with lots of praise)
3) i teach kennel ( when given the command "kennel" i give them a push into it with a small treat waiting for them inside so going into the crate is a good thing and they look forward to it when asked to go into it, later take the treat away after the command is learned)
4) i teach whoa and ok (every time i go to feed the pup i push it back and say "whoa" and make it wait, whoa time is just for a second to start with then expected wait time increases as they are get older then i say ok to release, before going out the door say "whoa" and make them wait then say ok releasing to go out, on a walk say "whoa" and stop then say "ok" and start to walk again, steady the pup on its crate and say "whoa" and if the pup moves knock the crate with my knee and say it again)
5) i teach off (i put the pup on a check cord when in the house to teach boundries by being able to enforce "off" if pup goes to jump on the furniture or jump up on the counters, table or people by giving a quick tug on the cc)

all of these things are done in moderation and are very short quick lessons to start and increase with age but still are introduced and started day 1, pups are looking for what is allowed or not allowed almost immediately when you bring them home so some lessons/obedience are very important to begin and some can wait depending on how soon they become an issue..of course all lessons are short and more time is spent on having fun and playing with the pup then anything but i still feel if you just let a pup be a pup and wait on the obedience/lessons you will find yourself with a 5 or 6 month old hyper dog with issues who is confused and all that can be avoided by simply beginning things early in moderation while having fun, not all lessons require "pressure" you can make them fun and the pup will learn while having fun......ruth

Do you not teach the sit command????

No, not until they are a bit older (about 8 months) as i havent found a need for it until then..we waterfowl hunt as well as upland hunt so yes i want the dog to sit in the blind or in the boat but that will come in time, a young pups reaction to pressure almost always is to sit and it isnt until they are a bit older that they know how to differentiate between field and blind and what its expected....ruth

[Cajun Casey]

Belle and Bella are way common. I'd go with something a little more original.

[ezzy333]

Belle and Bella are way common. I'd go with something a little more original.

Doubt if the dog will care how original the name is and chances are it will be the only dog in the household with that name so I would suggest you use whatever you like. Bell is my choice.

Ezzy

[Sharon]

A two syllable name is preferable. One syllables names are easily confused ( so I read). I like Bella.

[4dabirds]

http://www.georgehickox.com/articles/1s ... eks.kp.pdf read this it may help you. Also read culture clash by Jean Donaldson, you can get it on amazon .com for under 10 dollars.

[Onk]

Train or not to train? Everyday is training day when you have a pup is what I have learned! Its kind of like having kids, you train them from the day you bring them home, but you don't start training them to ride a bike from day one! In other words, start small and work up....always have fun and never over do any training in on session.

[slistoe]

Just remember that whether you are "training" or "not training", every time you do anything with your pup it will be learning something. It is up to you to monitor what you are teaching the dog - on purpose or not.

[bumper52]

Train your pup from the moment you bring it home, like others have said.....generally, just fairly passive obedience until 4-6 months old.....sit, here, heel, kennel, down, etc. You are shooting for 100% compliance over a period of time using mild corrections and very short sessions.....under minutes...lots of walks on a lead..in a field allow pup some independence and expect some breakdowns in the training....in the yard, when the pup is nearly 100% reliable (with distractions) then it's time to formalize his obedience....for me, that means collar conditioning......to me, the critical time is out in the field...a lot of guys want to get their pups hunting probably a little too early....I think this fine IF, after formal obedience, you gradually teach your dog that obedience in the yard is the SAME as obedience in the field.....it takes some time, but it is a necessary step. I've seen guys hunt their dogs with complete control over them and some with no control...either one is unacceptable....you have to fight your battles in the field....maintaining the standards you taught, yet allowing the dog some freedom and independence.

[Chukar12]

This is a video of a 7 week old Brittany puppy "training." Note that he is focusing on the treats offered to him and is willing to return to his platform and place his feet to try and "do things right." by doing so he garners a reward. He is very young, a day or two even from going to his new home...but he is "learning to learn" Jumping on the lady gets him nothing...sniffing and nudging...nothing. In some methods a platform is used later and it takes no compulsion to get the dog to use it. I actually do exactly this and at 11 or 12 weeks i have graduated the behavior to motionless puppy feet as I walk away prior to the click and reward...getting further away and extending the time each day. All of it is done without words or commands, it just establishes behavior, that later transfers into standing motionless for a bird to flush. I offer the video as a way for single dog owners or new owners to work with very young dogs without fear of "burning them out" or making a critical correction error that breaks down trust.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTclM7pH790