Chukar or Gambel's Quail hunters - Dog questions

[AzDoggin]

The way these birds run, it seems like it would be confusing for a young (unbroke) dog, and the chasing could potentially lead to habits that might have to be changed later - e.g., working the birds too closely to bust the coveys.

Do you expose your young dogs to wild birds and let them go at them?

[Vision]

I feel a puppy can learn nothing bad from wild birds. They sure can learn a lot of bad from pen raised birds

[jcbuttry8]

It all depends on what you are training for. If you are going to play doggie games later then yes you will have a few issues that you will have to fix later, but nothing that hasn't been done before. If you are training a bird dog only, then let the birds train your pup. He will learn more from them then he will from you. When I lived in OK all my GSP's learned how to circle a covey and hold them until I got there. I didn't teach it. They learned from mistakes.

Just keep working that pup and don't ever let someone tell you wild birds are wrong. If you have them usem or loadem up and send them to PA. We could usem here.

Joe

[Redfishkilla]

"I feel a puppy can learn nothing bad from wild birds. They sure can learn a lot of bad from pen raised birds"

I agree with this one 100%. Can't put pup on too many wild birds.

[DonF]

The best birds to introduce birds to a pup on, are wild birds. Weather gamebirds or "bleep" birds. They won't let the pup catch them and they will hold for the pup when he does it right. There is alos the advantage with wild birds that the pup is learning to handle cover and what cover to look for birds in. I also believe that the worst birds to train on are pen raised game birds and then wild game birds. Major problem for me is the birds won't co-operate with me. Seem's they don't care if you need them to act in a certain way. Very unpredictable!

[AG74]

The way these birds run, it seems like it would be confusing for a young (unbroke) dog, and the chasing could potentially lead to habits that might have to be changed later - e.g., working the birds too closely to bust the coveys.

Do you expose your young dogs to wild birds and let them go at them?

AZ,

do you have access to Wild Hungarian Partridge? I was in the same boat as you about 4 months ago and a buddy told me to hunt the dog on Huns - they are "pretty honest birds" was how he put it. He was right. They will sit and not run, but if the dog gets too close, they are gone (flushing and flying away). You are correct - chukar can be a little more confounding to a young dog.

Good luck

[Christopher]

I've got a 4 year old GSP, he is a chukar dog and this is our story (short version).

I began by putting him on pen raise chukars and it was a HUGE mistake (IMHO). Those birds held so tightly he nearly caught one and the others allowed him to point within 2-3 feet and that is not good. I made a rapid transition to wild chukars, convinced the more wild chukar coveys I could get the dog on the better trained he would be.

His first several coveys of wild chukars he got way too close and bumped them. This will happen, you can count on it. What I've learned is that by the dog bumping the birds the dog begins to learn the birds and starts handling them in such a way that they will hold. This is exactly what my GSP has proven to me.

And so, this is by far my Rudy's best season ever. It is as though he gets better with every covey. Plus, in the off season my friend was kind enough to invite us over many times to run him on pigeons in launchers. This trained him to locate and hold the birds in the field. The launchers seem to reinforce what they already know.

But I agree 110% with the comment above about wild birds being the best way to train your dogs. If the dog is a year or more old and is gun conditioned, by all means, take him hunting. If he isn't gun conditioned, go hunting but don't shoot the gun, leave the shells at home, just so you are not tempted.

I've heard it said that 100 coveys of birds (or single roosters) will train a dog well. I'm not sure how many my dog has pointed, but I doubt it is 100, probably more like 60 or 70. At this point, he is doing great, he is doing things that I never imagined, all cause I've ran him on these wild angry birds we call chukars.

Good luck to you my friend and Cheers!

[AzDoggin]

Thank you for all of the excellent information. It is my dream to wear out a pair of boots or two someday on the wily chukar. We have the miniature version here - so-called "chukars of the desert" - the Gambels quail. Especially later in the season, these dang birds have more in common with jackrabbits than quail in how they act.

I suspect the gsp I heard about was an exception rather than the rule. As it was told to me, the dog was worked on wild quail, but never did establish even a pause when he smelled birds - he just gathered up and busted them, covey after covey, bird after bird until his owner was looking for a pro to turn the dog into a pointer.

Absolutely it makes sense that dogs have to work hundreds of wild birds in order to hunt wild birds. I guess the question I had but probably didn't express very well is "at what point in the dog's development do you turn him loose on the runners?" Sounds like the consensus is early on and often...

Christopher - thanks for taking the time to describe your dog's development. Sounds like you have a winner in the making!! Congrats on setting him up for success. I appreciated your description of how you are integrating work on the launchers along with work on wild birds - trying to help your dog connect the dots. Makes sense to me.

[Sharon]

Everytime he busts a covey he's learns that busting in doesn't get him the bird.He needs to do this many times. He will eventually start to creep and then start to point. This is the best way for pup to learn. You should be saying nothing through all of this. Don't be calling him back.

It is not the time to have him on a CC and jerk him into pointing position. Once he has learned to hold his spot to keep the birds from flying off, then no more chasing/Cc.

[AG74]

Everytime he busts a covey he's learns that busting in doesn't get him the bird.He needs to do this many times. He will eventually start to creep and then start to point. This is the best way for pup to learn. You should be saying nothing through all of this. Don't be calling him back.

It is not the time to have him on a CC and jerk him into pointing position. Once he has learned to hold his spot to keep the birds from flying off, then no more chasing/Cc.

This should in no way be taken as me disputing anything you say Sharon, as you have waaay more experience than I do in this. I'm about in the same boat as Christopher, and my GWP had to bust a few coveys at the beginning. BUT, I got some good advice from Gone Huntin' on here, and that was to "help" the dog learn not to bust coveys. So here is what I did: I knew the dog "could" point when he wanted to because I had him on those nasty pen raised birds the others speak of, and he did exactly what was described. He would establish a point about 2-3 feet from the bird. If it moved, he'd grab it. BAD, BAD lessons he learned there. When I got him on wild birds (huns) finally, he would just bust right into the middle of the covey and then chase them as they flew away.... not good, and frankly quite demoralizing to me. That's when GH and a couple others recommended getting a hold of the dog after he busted a covey, pick him up and set him back to the point he smelled the birds. Then make him WHOA. So, one particular day, I was able to do this, just set him back and made him Whoa for a few minutes in that spot. I saw where the birds landed, so I walked him into their scent cone at about 20 yds with the CC. When he hit scent, he stopped on his own and I got to shoot a bird for him. I think that was critical, that he got the bird as the reward. Until then, smelling, seeing and chasing birds was enough of a reward for him. After that short exercise, he pointed EVERYTHING. He now points reliably and as long as the birds hold, he will hold a point for up to 6-7 minutes. BUT I have the feeling that just letting him continue to bust covey after covey may have just turned him into a flusher/chaser. Not every pointing dog will eventually learn to point all on his own. Yes, wild birds are the best teacher, but if busting and chasing is a good enough motivator/reward for the dog, and the dog is allowed to do it enoughtimes, he may never settle down and point without some help from the owner or a trainer. JMHO and not trying to dispute anyone's experience, jsut offering a differnt point of view.
Al

[trueblu]

The very best field trial dogs I have owned were also excellent wild bird dogs. Dogs that do nothing but play the games, trials, tests, etc. learn to crowd birds, get on top of them, never learn to "handle" birds the way they should. If a dog, in a wild bird situation, won't circle coveys on occasion, relocate himself to push the running birds to cover, etc. HE AIN'T WORTH SQUAT in my view. Wild birds teach dogs, period, end of conversation. My oldest and best trial FC AFC learned to do whatever it took to pin pheasants, chukar, blues, bobs, etc. I could turn him loose on any wild species and he was as good as any I've seen. The next day I could take him to a trial and do very well. You can tell pretty darn quick the dogs that have only been trialed or tested. They're the ones that can lick the bird and have little intensity on point.

[AzDoggin]

Not every pointing dog will eventually learn to point all on his own. Yes, wild birds are the best teacher, but if busting and chasing is a good enough motivator/reward for the dog, and the dog is allowed to do it enoughtimes, he may never settle down and point without some help from the owner or a trainer.

That's the very situation I had related to me, or very close. Great description of how you dealt with it in your post above, thanks. It's AWESOME how posts on this forum let the rest of us learn without having to start completely from scratch.

Oh - and I will keep an eye out for some Huns too.

[Christopher]

Christopher - thanks for taking the time to describe your dog's development. Sounds like you have a winner in the making!! Congrats on setting him up for success. I appreciated your description of how you are integrating work on the launchers along with work on wild birds - trying to help your dog connect the dots. Makes sense to me.

It was my pleasure, one of my favorite subjects is bird dogs, I'd rather talk dogs than guns or even birds themselves. I just love bird dogs.

Rudy is a good dog but he wasn't always this good. One of the guys on this board has helped me tremendously with Rudy, he actually has trained me, which is what really needed to happen. My opinion is that most well bred bird dogs are good dogs, they may not be breeding stock but they will hunt if given the correct circumstances.

In training, probably the best thing I've learned is to try and think like the dog. I tend to think too much. The dog learns what he learns through simple repetition. He learns from what we allow or do not allow, to a point of what we can control and what we cannot. This is where the launcher and pigeons come in. I do believe this is a great method because the trainer becomes the bird with that little remote launcher.

However, there are no replacement for wild birds. I really don't see how wild birds could wreck a dog that is one year old or more. I suppose pheasants can really mess with a dog, at least my experience has shown that, I've heard some say pheasants will wreck a pointing dog, not sure I've seen it though. However, there are only a few that will hold tight enough for my dog to establish solid point. When we switch back to chukars it seems like there is a covey or two of him remembering that chukars are different than roosters, that (typically in early to mid-season) they hold better.

I say all this and yet I do like pheasant hunting, I might take a few days every year and chase some roosters, it is always a frustrating but fun time.

[AzDoggin]

There is an interesting discussion going over on the General Chat side on this topic: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=33096

Seems like the best answer on the "let them chase/don't let them chase" issue appears to be "it depends on the dog." If the run/chase routine becomes reinforcing to a highly driven dog, then additional reps are simply reinforcing a habit that will have to be broken later. If the dog needs more run in him, then let him go...

[Christopher]

And interesting discussion on that thread. I do hope I didn't communicate that I just cut the pup loose and let him run wherever he wants. Long before I put him on the wild birds he did point and hold nicely on game birds at the preserve. If he had not I would not have taken him to the field. And so, he knew he was supposed to point em' and on many of those early wild coveys, he would get too close, point and they'd bust.

I do think it depends on the dog, I do think we cannot go wrong with all the hours in training properly according to great methods like Delmar Smith's. He teaches to not put a bird in sight of a dog until later, many are not waiting as long as Delmar wrote of. If my memory serves me, Delmar suggested that we first break the dog then introduce birds.

In my opinion, that is probably best. My dog is not fully broke but does find, point and hold birds until I get there and flush, so, he is steady only until I flush the covey. And I'm fine with that. But, I figure, at this point, the more wild birds the better for him.

[AzDoggin]

Delmar does say leave the pup off of birds that first year. Lot's of happy timing and learning terrain, etc., but no continual exposure to birds.

Very interesting dog talk indeed. I suspect the experienced trainers have several different tools in their toolkit and they can draw up all of their experiences and adjust their methods as necessary.

This article is the one that got me thinking when I started this thread: http://4imgs.com/1028/pdf/Equalizer.pdf The article was written by Larry Mueller. Jerome Robinson also references Marti in his gun dog training book. Bottom line? There appear to be many ways to skin a cat.

“Traditional training encourages the dog to chase birds to
build desire.” Marti pointed
out. “He gets adrenalized. Like
a jogger, he feels the morphine
derivative after running. He’s
high on chasing birds and high
on running, and just when the
whole thing becomes a ‘good
trip’ habit that’s hard to break,
you say, ‘No more of that!’
“The dog doesn’t believe
you. Chasing is too much fun.
It makes no sense to quit. So he
charges out, hits the end of the
check cord, does a midair flip,
and is jerked down on his back
or head. Unless that dog is one
tough customer, he just may decide
he wants nothing more to
do with birds that kick like that.”
Even with a dog that doesn’t
need chasing to build desire,
Marti says, traditional training
makes no sense. The dog runs
hard, becomes excited, scents a
bird, becomes more stimulated
as it points, and then the bird
flies. That does it! The stimulation
is now far beyond its newly acquired and inadequately
learned self-control, so the
dog chases. The trainer has no
alternative but to jerk the dog
down without warning.

[Wenaha]

There are a lot of ways to train a dog. The dog learns by finding what works, and is most easily trained if what works is in his own self-interest. Young dogs learn a great deal by being allowed to run, hunt, and find birds. When the birds 'get away' the dog has not been successful. Most will chase, then learn that that does not work either. At this point most will stop flushing and will point the birds. At this point some serious training can begin.

The dog should be run dragging a check cord, find and point a bird. If you can get someone to hold the cord (with a little slack in the cord), then you walk in and flush, and kill, the bird. THEN, WHILE THE DOG IS RESTRAINED, YOU WALK TO THE BIRD, PICK IT UP AND CARRY IT BACK TO THE DOG AND GIVE IT TO HIM. What has he learned? He has attained success by having you be a key part of his success. After a few repetitions the dog will stand while you flush and kill the bird for him. No punishment involved, dog is happy, owner is happy. Build from there.

[Elkhunter]

I rarely have trouble with Chukars running on my dogs, the only time we have that happen is when we come up from the bottom. When we get elevation on them I have never had a problem. And I have never in 8 years of hunting chukars every seen a dog circle a covey???? Most the time we just point them and shoot them. Why circle?

[trigger1989]

So I've read most of the replies on this post and if I missed the answer to my question I'm sorry for asking... I have decide thru reading a lot of stuff online that having my gsp pup train himself on wild quail would be best. I've taken him out to this river bottom behind my house that is in city limits here in az so I can't hunt but he can chase quail and there are a lot of them. If he holds point which is maybe 1 out of 5 times I'll shoot the blank gun. So here is my question, how long should I let him bust and chase wild quail before I start enforcing pointing or will he learn himself and I should just let him do his thing until he learns? I've probably taken him out about 5 times. I know that's not a lot but that's why I'm asking. Any advice is appreciated, thanks!

[AzDoggin]

So I've read most of the replies on this post and if I missed the answer to my question I'm sorry for asking... I have decide thru reading a lot of stuff online that having my gsp pup train himself on wild quail would be best. I've taken him out to this river bottom behind my house that is in city limits here in az so I can't hunt but he can chase quail and there are a lot of them. If he holds point which is maybe 1 out of 5 times I'll shoot the blank gun. So here is my question, how long should I let him bust and chase wild quail before I start enforcing pointing or will he learn himself and I should just let him do his thing until he learns? I've probably taken him out about 5 times. I know that's not a lot but that's why I'm asking. Any advice is appreciated, thanks!

How old is your pup?

Man, you are lucky to have wild birds that close. Hopefully the neighbors won't harass you too much, or turn you in to PETA :roll:

[trigger1989]

He is 11 months old

[Ranger351]

I may be mistaken but I believe Trigger is the brother of my dog Ranger. Ranger has had very little training on pigeons but turning him loose in a field on wild birds he does pretty well on his own. Now if only I could get some water work done I'd be happy.

[cjuve]

I start to take out the chase once the dog allows me to get to his side while he is pointed....... It helps if you have someone to shoot for you at this point