Barrel Alternatives

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Deets
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Barrel Alternatives

Post by Deets » Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:37 pm

I want to train my pointer to be steady to wing and shot. I like the idea of using a barrel as seen in the George Hickox videos, but do not have a place to keep a permanent barrel, and don’t really want to haul one around. Does anyone have any suggestions for an alternative to the barrel? I like the idea that the barrel keeps you from having to stimulate the dog in the presence of a bird and would like to find something that will achieve a similar result.

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Re: Barrel Alternatives

Post by Ruffshooter » Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:44 am

Table, Tail gate, Two saw horses and an 2"X8" plank.
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Re: Barrel Alternatives

Post by southwayno » Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:42 am

check out ps pf

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Re: Barrel Alternatives

Post by RayGubernat » Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:09 am

Deets -

I use a modified metal fold up sawhorse for whoa drills. I put a 6" X 30" piece of 3/4" plywood on it by drilling a 5/16" hole in the wood and horse and mount the board withetal washers and a 1/4" carriage bolt that is 1 1/2 or 2" long. I secured the bolt loosely to the sawhorse with an elastic stopnut with plenty of length on the bolt so it could wobble around when the dog moves.

The sawhorse folds up and stows easily. I am contemplating whether or not to add a fixture to the front of the sawhorse to hang a hook and snap above the dog so I can position the dog's head.

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Re: Barrel Alternatives

Post by birddog1968 » Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:17 am

+1 on Ray's wobble saw horse, seen it first hand, pretty slick and stowable.
The second kick from a mule is of very little educational value - from Wing and Shot.

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Re: Barrel Alternatives

Post by mxdad777 » Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:43 am

RayGubernat wrote:Deets -

I use a modified metal fold up sawhorse for whoa drills. I put a 6" X 30" piece of 3/4" plywood on it by drilling a 5/16" hole in the wood and horse and mount the board withetal washers and a 1/4" carriage bolt that is 1 1/2 or 2" long. I secured the bolt loosely to the sawhorse with an elastic stopnut with plenty of length on the bolt so it could wobble around when the dog moves.

The sawhorse folds up and stows easily. I am contemplating whether or not to add a fixture to the front of the sawhorse to hang a hook and snap above the dog so I can position the dog's head.

RayG
Sounds interesting. Could you post a picture of it?
Thanks

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Re: Barrel Alternatives

Post by RoostersMom » Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:00 am

I use a leash. Second the Perfect Start/Perfect Finish reference. My leash can go with me anywhere. No barrel, no sawhorse. The leash is easily transfered to the field. Simple to build and easy to store. :)

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Re: Barrel Alternatives

Post by DonF » Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:13 am

I use a 20' check cord ala Delmar Smith. Been using it for about 25 yrs and have had such good luck with it I've had no desire to look at anything else.
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Re: Barrel Alternatives

Post by Wenaha » Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:44 pm

The barrel (and boards, etc.) are used in whoa training and to some extent to style up trial dogs. I do not use any of these methods. I whoa train my dogs on the ground with a piggin' string or pinch collar. I also use these tools to restrain a dog when breaking steady to wing and shot.

The are a ton of very good bird dogs out there - steady as a rock, that have never been formally whoa trained. Wonder how that happens?
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Re: Barrel Alternatives

Post by brad27 » Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:49 pm

Yep, CC and a pinch collar. Oh, and no verbal command.

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Re: Barrel Alternatives

Post by 4dabirds » Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:21 pm

Although there are many ways to train a dog , one thing remains constant a dog is motivated to please itself. When a dog remains steady on a barrel or board and is rewarded for it, the complex idea of standing still is is being broken down into a training chain that allows the dog to understand what is expected with out being compelled to do anything. The behavior is learned by the dog on the dogs terms. Once the dog is exhibiting the behavior the command is overlaid. A dog that is not being pressured allows the trainer to work for longer periods of time on a given behavior and when a dog perceives training as a good thing it will perform at a higher level. Although whoa training may not be necessary to have a dog that points, it is necessary to have a dog that stops on command. If a dog has gone through a training regimen and the whoa command is used it allows you to have a mechanism, that the dog understands, to communicate the dog needs to be steady. A rock solid whoa response will allow you to train steady to wing and shot with less pressure on the dog resulting in better style. As far as an alternative to the barrel you might want to try a 24 inch sonotube. This is a concrete form made out of heavy duty cardboard and is a lot lighter than a barrel.

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Re: Barrel Alternatives

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:09 pm

Deets wrote:I want to train my pointer to be steady to wing and shot. I like the idea of using a barrel as seen in the George Hickox videos, but do not have a place to keep a permanent barrel, and don’t really want to haul one around. Does anyone have any suggestions for an alternative to the barrel? I like the idea that the barrel keeps you from having to stimulate the dog in the presence of a bird and would like to find something that will achieve a similar result.
Don't believe there is anyone that uses a collar to teach WHOA, at least that I know of. Of course we all use stimulation but just not from an E-collar. I think you will find that even though stimulation from a pinch collar is more severe, it is used quite often and many just use a loop around the flank area and the leash on the collar, or several other ways can be used. But they all stimulate.

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Re: Barrel Alternatives

Post by postoakshorthairs » Thu Dec 22, 2011 2:33 pm

Don't believe there is anyone that uses a collar to teach WHOA
I don't know any who use the collar to initially introduce "whoa" but there are plenty who use the collar (around the flank and/or neck) to reinforce the command and extend their reach for teaching.

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Re: Barrel Alternatives

Post by DonF » Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:38 pm

I think Rick Smith does. Not sure how it works but the e-collar goes on the flank. I use an e-collar to inforce a known command but never to teach it.
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Re: Barrel Alternatives

Post by birddogger » Thu Dec 22, 2011 5:42 pm

postoakshorthairs wrote:
Don't believe there is anyone that uses a collar to teach WHOA
I don't know any who use the collar to initially introduce "whoa" but there are plenty who use the collar (around the flank and/or neck) to reinforce the command and extend their reach for teaching.
+1. I transition all commands to the e-collar.

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Re: Barrel Alternatives

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Dec 22, 2011 5:59 pm

birddogger wrote:
postoakshorthairs wrote:
Don't believe there is anyone that uses a collar to teach WHOA
I don't know any who use the collar to initially introduce "whoa" but there are plenty who use the collar (around the flank and/or neck) to reinforce the command and extend their reach for teaching.
+1. I transition all commands to the e-collar.

Charlie
I do too, but I don't use it to teach whoa. I like the whoa post myself and have used that for years. As we all know there is a big difference in teaching and reinforcing.

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Re: Barrel Alternatives

Post by postoakshorthairs » Thu Dec 22, 2011 6:10 pm

We may be getting lost in semantics but in my view while your transitioning from the check chord to the collar your still teaching until it's mastered. I've seen several guys start with the collar while still using the whoa post in order to transition.

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Re: Barrel Alternatives

Post by Deets » Mon Dec 26, 2011 10:16 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
Deets wrote:I want to train my pointer to be steady to wing and shot. I like the idea of using a barrel as seen in the George Hickox videos, but do not have a place to keep a permanent barrel, and don’t really want to haul one around. Does anyone have any suggestions for an alternative to the barrel? I like the idea that the barrel keeps you from having to stimulate the dog in the presence of a bird and would like to find something that will achieve a similar result.
Don't believe there is anyone that uses a collar to teach WHOA, at least that I know of. Of course we all use stimulation but just not from an E-collar. I think you will find that even though stimulation from a pinch collar is more severe, it is used quite often and many just use a loop around the flank area and the leash on the collar, or several other ways can be used. But they all stimulate.

Ezzy

Okay here's the deal. My dog is whoa broke and steady on point, but he will break on the flush. I want him to be steady through the flush and release on command. I did not use the e coller to teach my dog whoa, but I do use it to enforce whoa. What I want to do is set up a sittuation where I do not have to stimulate him during the flush in order to avoid making him bird shy. From what I understand that is what the barrel is used for. I was just looking for an alternate to the barrel, not a lesson on teaching whoa.

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Re: Barrel Alternatives

Post by Buckeye_V » Tue Dec 27, 2011 2:58 pm

A narrow board just wide enough for his/her feet and balanced between sawhorses or I used a patio chair. Worked great to teach the concept. The chair wobbled like crazy when they moved around on it and they felt like they were going to fall to their deaths.

Now, breaking on the flush can be pretty easy to fix. All you need to start with is a check cord.

I teach everything with the cord first and then use the e-collar to overlay those corrections and then eventually run them with no collar at all.

Takes patience and some ingenuity if you are by yourself. Try making a stake out of rebar or something that you can push in the ground by your self and wrap the cord around so when you go into flush the bird the dog can make no forward progress.

The whoa is only reinforcement, but in my humble opinion it won't totally fix your issue. What are you going to do when you aren't there adn the bird flushes wild?
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Re: Barrel Alternatives

Post by birddog1968 » Tue Dec 27, 2011 3:30 pm

Deets wrote:

Okay here's the deal. My dog is whoa broke and steady on point, but he will break on the flush. I want him to be steady through the flush and release on command. I did not use the e coller to teach my dog whoa, but I do use it to enforce whoa. What I want to do is set up a sittuation where I do not have to stimulate him during the flush in order to avoid making him bird shy. From what I understand that is what the barrel is used for. I was just looking for an alternate to the barrel, not a lesson on teaching whoa.
Real easy to do with the collar, just wait till the bird is going away and the dog chasing and tap tap tap tap the continuous button on the lowest setting , on a TT I use 1 the first day and may switch to a 2 there on out. Trick is to keep your mouth shut and just tap with the collar until the dog stops, done correctly he will be stop to flush very quickly. Then its just a natural progression to add steady to the shot. The collar is not going to make him shy of birds if he's only getting stim on the chase.
The second kick from a mule is of very little educational value - from Wing and Shot.

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Re: Barrel Alternatives

Post by Buckeye_V » Tue Dec 27, 2011 3:36 pm

I would not use that collar unles syou 100% know what you are doing. I ruined my first dog that way from bad advice. Not saying you are getting bad advice from any of the poster, just saying you should probably fix it with a cord first.
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Re: Barrel Alternatives

Post by birddog1968 » Tue Dec 27, 2011 3:49 pm

Funny I never hurt a dog with that method......timing is not even crucial....tap on the chase, Key is lowest setting possible. I'll go back and tell my mentor that he's giving out bad advise :lol:


BTW he's not fixing anything, he's looking to condition a response.......
The second kick from a mule is of very little educational value - from Wing and Shot.

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Re: Barrel Alternatives

Post by Buckeye_V » Wed Dec 28, 2011 9:56 am

OK.

It does send a message to the dog that chasing their favorite thing is bad. I have a really smart dog who figured it out and now uses that as an excuse to blink birds.

Bet your mentor never ran into KIT. :wink:

Do you want brother, I'm just saying that not every method works in every situation and be CAREFUL before taking advise from someone who does not know your dog.
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Re: Barrel Alternatives

Post by birddog1968 » Wed Dec 28, 2011 3:57 pm

Nobody can really diagnose anything like that over the internet.....it works and works very well and very quickly if done right.....never seen it cause a blinker. I would question how and on what level the collar was used. have had 8 to 10 month olds STF very quickly.

Fella that mentored me has seen it all....I can guarantee that.

I personally hate checkcords and rarely if ever use one....unless its to just slow a pup down running. I believe you can cause as many problems with a checkcord as with a collar, the collar is just probably faster at ruining a dog in inexperienced hands.
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Re: Barrel Alternatives

Post by tailcrackin » Wed Dec 28, 2011 5:37 pm

If you are fair with the dog, it will be fair with you. That is a huge "key" in the work. The checkcord work, is finesse.....sorta like fly fishing, it is a finesse. It takes time for the dog to put two an two together. The ecollar is an extension of the checkcord.....it is a common factor that most havent completed things with the checkcord, and start the ecollar with the dog, and create alot of issues, or problems. Dogs are a creature of habit. The checkcord allows things to be taught and learned, on the dogs table.

I am not a fan of the barrel, just because you have to reteach when you give the dog its footing back. Same with the 2x6. Myself, I enjoy spending the time teaching it in the field, while we are working on things. Hopefully everything works out well for you an the dog. The simplier you keep things, the simplier they are for the dog to understand. Thanks Jonesy
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Re: Barrel Alternatives

Post by Buckeye_V » Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:44 am

I won't use the the e-collar to fix that. I have good reasons. If you want to use it, then that is fine. It obviously works for you. I'm just saying I could send you a dog that it won't work on. She'll fold like a cheap suit using any kind of e-stimulation around birds. Period.

I just want the guy to know and understand that not all dogs are created equally and that he could cause issues down the road he may regret.
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