Teaching "hold"

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Vaoutdoors42
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Teaching "hold"

Post by Vaoutdoors42 » Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:01 am

I have been working with my pup the last few days on teaching "hold" with a paint roller on the training table Nothing big, just a few minutes.......He enjoys holding these in his mouth (when he wants) so I thought it would be the best object to use to start. I am using no pressure at this time but have been giving a small reward (piece of hotdog) after I tell dog "drop" . The dog is 5.6 months old and I didnt want to bring any pressure into this now, just wanted to reward the dog for doing what I wanted. Is this a good approach.
Our session are only lasting like 5 minutes..He "hold" for 5 seconds...I tell him drop and praise him and give him a treat.

I will be doing formal FF at 6 months but wanted to work on "hold" before we got that with minimal pressure.

am I approaching this right? Are there things you would add into this or is this good with such a young dog?

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Re: Teaching "hold"

Post by crackerd » Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:44 am

You're doing fine, especially in using a paint roller to condition hold. You might lose the treat - the best reward for the pup's releasing (or dropping) is effusive praise from you.

The conflict's going to come when you start getting advice/concerned coercion not to force fetch the pup at 6 months because "It's too young! - let a puppy be a puppy!" (Whatever that useless solipsism means.)

MG

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Re: Teaching "hold"

Post by RoostersMom » Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:01 am

Paint roller is great - teaching hold is great. Treat - not so great. HOLD is teaching the dog that holding the object is the good thing. Not dropping it. No treats or praise when the object is not in the dog's mouth. Only praise when he is holding the object. That's what makes sense to me at least. You're not specifically concerned about "dropping it", you're teaching "hold" so that's what you need to praise for. I don't pet or praise unless the roller is in the mouth, once I've asked him to "give", I stop all praise. Praise starts up again when he is told "hold" again and has the roller in his mouth - then lots of praise/petting. That stops the minute the roller is not in his mouth.

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Re: Teaching "hold"

Post by ultracarry » Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:40 am

What kind of dog do you have? Looks like.a GSP but can't yell for sure.

Good luck force breaking the dog at 6 months. Wouldn't recommend it unless you have a retriever. I saw force breaking with a 6 month old GSP before and it wouldn't leave the dog box. Better safe than sorry.

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Re: Teaching "hold"

Post by snips » Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:57 am

So you want no pressure at 5 1/2 weeks but are starting formal ff in 2 weeks? 6 mo is still a puppy and ff requires pain and pressure...I do not consider ff on anything under a year old if it is a pointing breed.
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Re: Teaching "hold"

Post by crackerd » Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:04 am

ultra, your caution's well taken. But "force breaking" differs (and not just in semantics) than force fetch after you've accomplished the hold - which is about 92% of force fetching. You said "unless it's a retriever" - behooves you to understand force fetching with retrievers ain't about the retrieve, as has been stated many times, but about a dog that already retrieves, that was born to retrieve, that often has retriever in its very name - it's about that dog adhering to your will for how it retrieves. By my purview, that goes for force fetching all gundogs.

I'd wager Va here hasn't forced a dog before but he's going into it not using much (if any) pressure with the hold, and if he hews to that path can likewise force the dog without a whole h*ll of a lot of pressure. I've forced them at x weeks (and the "x" is not for the Roman numeral X [10], it's because I don't advise others doing it at that age.

But low-pressure force fetch done on a younger dog - any gundog, not just a retriever - can be handled almost with kid gloves. (And without the dog having to handle kid gloves, as many force-breakers recommend.)

Some trainers opt for heavy pressure, some eschew it. It's whatever works for you - and the dog. The low- (but not no-) pressure approach works for me and always has for the dogs too - on a number of breeds.

Rooster, you're right to praise the dog during the hold - but given the versatile breeds I've seen that either are possessive of birds or that will chomp them, the releasing on command also needs to come in for high praise. If your dog is a GSP, Va., bear that in mind as you progress through the hold. Because in conditioning the hold, you also need to be conditioning the drop (release).

Good luck,

MG

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Re: Teaching "hold"

Post by ultracarry » Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:37 am

crackerd wrote:ultra, your caution's well taken. But "force breaking" differs (and not just in semantics) than force fetch after you've accomplished the hold - which is about 92% of force fetching. You said "unless it's a retriever" - behooves you to understand force fetching with retrievers ain't about the retrieve, as has been stated many times, but about a dog that already retrieves, that was born to retrieve, that often has retriever in its very name - it's about that dog adhering to your will for how it retrieves. By my purview, that goes for force fetching all gundogs.

I'd wager Va here hasn't forced a dog before but he's going into it not using much (if any) pressure with the hold, and if he hews to that path can likewise force the dog without a whole h*ll of a lot of pressure. I've forced them at x weeks (and the "x" is not for the Roman numeral X [10], it's because I don't advise others doing it at that age.

But low-pressure force fetch done on a younger dog - any gundog, not just a retriever - can be handled almost with kid gloves. (And without the dog having to handle kid gloves, as many force-breakers recommend.)

Some trainers opt for heavy pressure, some eschew it. It's whatever works for you - and the dog. The low- (but not no-) pressure approach works for me and always has for the dogs too - on a number of breeds.

Rooster, you're right to praise the dog during the hold - but given the versatile breeds I've seen that either are possessive of birds or that will chomp them, the releasing on command also needs to come in for high praise. If your dog is a GSP, Va., bear that in mind as you progress through the hold. Because in conditioning the hold, you also need to be conditioning the drop (release).

Good luck,

MG
Force fetch and force breaking to retrieve ....

If you don't use pressure / pain there ain't much force is there? The whole process of it is not just to get a perfect retrieve but a training mentality. I have watched my dog be a lot more consistent once we completed it but seeing the pressure it takes a 18 month old to finish the training I wouldn't consider starting with a 6 month old. Someone who hasn't force broke a dog to retrieve before ( and asking questions on the forum about it) has no business doing it to a dog at 6 months.

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Re: Teaching "hold"

Post by crackerd » Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:06 am

ultracarry wrote:Force fetch and force breaking to retrieve ....

If you don't use pressure / pain there ain't much force is there? The whole process of it is not just to get a perfect retrieve but a training mentality. I have watched my dog be a lot more consistent once we completed it but seeing the pressure it takes a 18 month old to finish the training I wouldn't consider starting with a 6 month old. Someone who hasn't force broke a dog to retrieve before ( and asking questions on the forum about it) has no business doing it to a dog at 6 months.
One school of thought, ultra, is a big au contraire to your comments - that if you'd done FF on your dog at 6 months you mightn't have had such an ordeal with it at 18 months. With low pressure - and the conditioned hold under the pup's belt - the younger the better for force fetching. Again, with the proviso of low pressure - despite what you pointer people think (as a Catch-22), it can be done and often is. You don't have to brutalize, bear-hug or maul the pup to get it to open its mouth, right?

MG

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Re: Teaching "hold"

Post by DonF » Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:28 am

vaoutdoors, you may get several different opinion's on force fetch or force breaking, call it what you will. And you may indeed have some suggest waiting till the pup is quite a bit older. Most the answer's you get are neither right or wrong, they are just someone's opinion on how to do it. Deciding which way to go is your problem.

I am in the school of letting the puppy be a pup, and I do not teach the hold command. I find that just one more command that means the same as "fetch". You spend time with it and it is learning with little or no pressure. If you decide to train from the moment you get it home, that will work also. I think FF is a valuable tool but, I also think in many cases it is not needed at all. My buddy's Duke was never FF'd but he is a retrieving fool. I would match him against any force fetched dog, FF really would have served no purpose with him. In the past I have been a believer of the FF process but I'm thinking lately that it is done to a lot of dogs that don't need it. While you read thru these post's keep in mind that most any, probably every, method you might read of has probably worked for the person that posted it. None are right and none are wrong. Pick the one that appeals to you.

You might also keep in mind that the words we choose for commands are chosen because they mean something to us. You could use the same words spoken in Chineese and the dog would associate the sound with an action.
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Re: Teaching "hold"

Post by crackerd » Wed Dec 21, 2011 12:11 pm

Don, you're right about "what works" but, lookit, I don't advocate force fetching or not force fetching just when someone announces their intent they might want the most efficient, effective and less stressful (for handler and dog) way of going about it. Evan Graham might argue differently and might argue convincingly too - to bear out your points about different ways of doing it with the same outcome.

But I'll adamantly tell you, "Hold" is not the same command as "Fetch!" (nor does the pup understand it as such). Hold is about as integral to the force fetch process - the efficient, effective and less stressful process - as you can get. You see above where Va. has accomplished the "hold" with little or no pressure. "Fetch!" and the attendant ear pinch (only pointing dog trainers use the toe-hitch anymore) are indeed pressure, and again can be differentiated by the action each entails. And what the dog perceives its reaction to each command should be.

When a dog holds, it's not fetching - it's holding. Fetching is moving forward to take something out of my hand or off the ground - "Fetch!" has a compulsion (via an ear pinch) behind it. Retriever people - retrieving gundog people - understand this and it's why they can pull off force fetch without first cleaning up a train wreck as ultra describes.

Thing is, ultra had a rasslin' match with an 18-month-old because of force fetch - whereas with a six-month-old that's got "hold" down, I may have only to administer three or four ear pinches to have the pup through force fetch. Rasslin' match or intimidation not included in the bargain.

MG

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Re: Teaching "hold"

Post by nj gsp » Wed Dec 21, 2011 12:46 pm

When I give the fetch command, I expect the dog to run out, pick up whatever, bring it back to me, present it to me, and put it in my hand when I tell it to. I'm not an expert of retrieve or FF training by a long shot, and I've never quite understood the purpose of teaching fetch and hold as separate commands. I don't want to tell the dog to fetch then have to tell it to hold whatever it picked up. I just want to tell the dog to fetch.

Maybe someone can help me understand the difference?

Thanks!

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Re: Teaching "hold"

Post by crackerd » Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:27 pm

Goes like this, nj: With "hold," you're putting something in the pup's mouth then giving the command. With "Fetch!" you're commanding the dog to put something in its mouth.

With "Hold" you may also give the command while the pup's already holding something - thus the conditioned hold might begin at 10-12 weeks. With "Fetch!" you're commanding the pup to put something in its mouth, which you don't want to do unless you can reinforce the command with an ear pinch (pressure) if necessary and you certainly don't want to do that to 10-12 week old puppy. (Six-seven months is a different story.)

"Fetch!" eventually supersedes "Hold" through the force fetch process, but you'd better believe that even with the best and most thoroughly force fetched dogs, and regardless the method you've used, you will at some point have to invoke the old "Hold" command again. Might be for holding a goose that it's already fetched, might be for sitting with a bird in its mouth at your side lined up before it's sent for another bird.

It's like this: If you don't use "Hold" you're failing to take advantage of something the dog most likely already does naturally - which you can then give a name to by using the hold command. And by the pup's complying with that command, even though not a lot of pressure will have been used even in opening the pup's mouth, you're nevertheless giving it an early exposure to the rudiments of pressure in training.

MG

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Re: Teaching "hold"

Post by ultracarry » Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:16 pm

I was more referring to the comment about force fetch a six month old .puppy. I could care less weather you want a dog to hold a paint roller, paint your room, lick your leg, or bark when someone looks at it. Yes hold is different then Fetch.

I didn't have a wrestling match or a hard time. If you don't know how to handle what the dog does it would be though. Most people that have problems and end up with a screwed up dog have no business doing it in the first place. They should have professional help and learn first hand, go home with homework and learn that's its a process and not a turn key operation.

Teaching a dog to hold immediately prior to force fetch but using force in the process is completely different than what you should do with a puppy.

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Re: Teaching "hold"

Post by EvanG » Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:29 pm

In most modern methods "Hold" is the first step in the force fetch process. Do a good job, and make sure your dog is solid on Walking Hold before starting to force the fetch aspect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yd72kl9lZlc

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Re: Teaching "hold"

Post by DonF » Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:08 pm

I'll bet a dollar to a sugar cookie that if you substituted "fetch" for "hold" the outcome would be the same. And of course if you substited "hold" for "fetch" the outcome would be the same. And using either one for the entire process, the out come would be the same. So early on, before the table, teach the dog that "fetch" means to keep an object in it's mouth. Then on the table teach the dog that "hold" means to reach out and take something in it's mouth. The outcome will be the same. You can start off young with the command "fetch" which means to carry something in it's mouth and keep it there, no big deal, easy as teaching "hold". And then you could move to the table and teach the dog to reach out and take the object in it's mouth on the command "hold". Thru the whole thing your forgetting something I think. Retrieving is about teaching a dog to go get something, pick it up and bring it to you; that's all it is nothing more. One thing this seem's to indicate is that pointing dogs are a lot smarter than retriver's. You give the pointing dog one commad to learn that means to do what you ultimately want and the retrieveing dog need's two commands to accomplish the same task!

BTW, I do believe in the rule of "KISS"!

Forgot one thing. When starting the FF process I put the dog on the table and exert no pressure at all to get the dog to take an object in its mouth and hold it. Once it learns the command and refuses, then the pressure starts.
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Re: Teaching "hold"

Post by crackerd » Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:16 pm

Yeah, you got it with brilliant deductions across the board and we've obviously forgotten how lacking in intelligence retrievers, especially Labs, are when compared to pointers that are trained to such an advanced level - whether "trained" to point or retrieve. Sugar cookies notwithstanding, that's the biggest bag of hokum I've seen since Halloween.

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Re: Teaching "hold"

Post by DonF » Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:21 pm

In "The Last Book", Jack Oconner said that you have to choose your expert! I took that to mean that there's different ways of accomplish a task and you'll have to choose one. One of the things I find really hard to believe about this whole FF process is that the people that think two commands are needed are adament and those that think one will do get blasted by those that think two are needed, even though the end result is the same!
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Re: Teaching "hold"

Post by crackerd » Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:41 pm

Sounds like Jack don't know jack about modern force fetch either. But if you're going to channel him, be sure and ask what his "end result" would be same as from his "expert." If it jibes with yours, let's make sure he holds that thought - holds it as far away from an actual gundog trainer as possible, shall we?

Va., carry on and stay attuned to what Evan's telling you. You're doing fine and you don't need to send yourself or your dog away to a pro trainer to have your first success with force fetch.

MG

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Re: Teaching "hold"

Post by ultracarry » Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:28 am

Just a thought... when teaching a young dog 5.5 months to hold.... do the who set like you explained... dpg does great and all of a sudden decides not to follow the game plan and will not hold and refuses to hold. owner Goes out and shoots a bird, dog walks up and smells it before turning back to the owner. What are you going to do? The dog retrieved before but now refuses to pick up or hold...

The whole pet, praise, and be soft thing sounds really nice and appropriate for internet reading but its more like sugar cookies, milk, rainbows, and a pot of gold. Once the dog refuses and you do not have a dog that can withstand the force required to complete the force fetch / force breaking, you kinda have to let them be. Now the dog has one up on their owner because it can refuse a command and there is no consequence. Can't use your rope for the toe, cant ecollar, can't pinch the ear, Ohhh the solution is not petting them.

Here is something for you.. when I'm hinting my dog could care less about water, treats, cats, or me wanting to pet her. I see how it may work for a retriever but pretty sure those pointing breeds would give you the finger along with the stronger willed retrieves. Feel free to object and say I'm full of garbage ....

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Re: Teaching "hold"

Post by crackerd » Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:42 am

No, ultra, I'd say you're the typical pointing dog trainer who won't see the forest for the trees and who "has" to force fetch (force-break :idea: ) for the wrong reasons in the first place. Who but an innocent or somebody so misguided would give a pup birds or hunt birds over it without first completing force fetch? (I use a steel guitar pick or a bottle cap - not neither of them sugar-coated nor sugar cookies - for the ear pinch, by the way.) But why not sit back and contemplate that pot of gold being that leprechauns (the Irish - or the Brits) don't force fetch in the first place - and their dogs seem to do fine without it. At very least you can say they don't force fetch for the right reasons.

As opposed to pointer trainers, at least some of the versatile folks are starting to "get it" - elsewhere their dogs are known as HPRs, which stands for hunt-point-retrieve, and they're not shirking the last part of the name by waiting until the dog's 18-months/ 2 years old to give the dog the opportunity to live up to it. Evidenced by Evan Graham giving seminars for NAVHDA chapters and selling more of his wares to the versatile masses.

MG

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Re: Teaching "hold"

Post by birddogger » Thu Dec 22, 2011 6:07 pm

But I'll adamantly tell you, "Hold" is not the same command as "Fetch!" (nor does the pup understand it as such). Hold is about as integral to the force fetch process - the efficient, effective and less stressful process - as you can get. You see above where Va. has accomplished the "hold" with little or no pressure. "Fetch!" and the attendant ear pinch (only pointing dog trainers use the toe-hitch anymore) are indeed pressure, and again can be differentiated by the action each entails. And what the dog perceives its reaction to each command should be.

When a dog holds, it's not fetching - it's holding. Fetching is moving forward to take something out of my hand or off the ground - "Fetch!" has a compulsion (via an ear pinch) behind it. Retriever people - retrieving gundog people - understand this and it's why they can pull off force fetch without first cleaning up a train wreck as ultra describes.
+1.

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Re: Teaching "hold"

Post by DonF » Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:24 pm

ultracarry wrote:Just a thought... when teaching a young dog 5.5 months to hold.... do the who set like you explained... dpg does great and all of a sudden decides not to follow the game plan and will not hold and refuses to hold. owner Goes out and shoots a bird, dog walks up and smells it before turning back to the owner. What are you going to do? The dog retrieved before but now refuses to pick up or hold...

The whole pet, praise, and be soft thing sounds really nice and appropriate for internet reading but its more like sugar cookies, milk, rainbows, and a pot of gold. Once the dog refuses and you do not have a dog that can withstand the force required to complete the force fetch / force breaking, you kinda have to let them be. Now the dog has one up on their owner because it can refuse a command and there is no consequence. Can't use your rope for the toe, cant ecollar, can't pinch the ear, Ohhh the solution is not petting them.

Here is something for you.. when I'm hinting my dog could care less about water, treats, cats, or me wanting to pet her. I see how it may work for a retriever but pretty sure those pointing breeds would give you the finger along with the stronger willed retrieves. Feel free to object and say I'm full of garbage ....
They are teaching "hold" as a seperate command. Not sure why a dog would "fetch" when told to "hold" unless "hold" was used as the command to "fetch". Well it's not, we are to believe that it is necessary to train two different function's; "hold" then later at some point "fetch". Now if you shoot a bird for your dog before teaching fetch but after hold, no reason to believe the dog will actually fetch the bird. In my experience with pointing dogs the majority of them don't need to be forced, they do it natural as the Lab. The lab doesn't need it either as it's a natural thing for them. Most of the sporting dogs that are well bred will chase something thrown for them and not necessarily bring it back. So they don't fetch for no other reasoin than they weren't taught to bring it back. There are dogs that for whatever reason, need to be forced. Mostly it's because they are competative dogs and the handler fears an ah shucks if the dog is not forced. I have never seen a dog that was taught to retrieve without force refuse to retrieve without good reason. Like it got the garbage beat out of it by a large bird when it was a pup, or, the handler treis to send it into some God forsaken mess of briars or maybe catcus. Then the force will come in handy to force the dog it comply, even if it means certain injury to the dog.

I guess in my own way I do teach a dog to "hold". First thing I do with the dog on the table is to put a buck in their mouth. While doing it I teach them to hold it till I ask for it back. The command I use is "fetch". I am led to believe this is wrong and appearently won't work but, so far it's worked on a whole bunch of dogs. What the people trying to drill this "hold" command in your head don't seem to grasp that the people that don't use it get the same results as they do. Problem you have in the example you give above is that the dog was taught to hold something put in it's mouth but not required to pick it up itself.

Near as I can tell, according top those that teach "hold", it means to hold onto whatever you have in your mouth.

Then the next step is to teach the dog to take something in it's mouth when commanded fetch. Next they must somehow tell the dog to move to ge the object, what command here? Then they need to tell the dog to hold after it's picked up to keep the dog from dumping it. What's the point in that. If on the way back they either fool with it in their mouth or try to spit it, they are commanded to "hold". You cannot as I understand them, teach a dog to go get something, pick it up and bring it back with just a fetch command. The dog for some reason needs to understand what "hold" means. Fetch cannot possibly mean hold it till your told to release it, how could that be? Hold means to hold it, fetch means to go get it. I think for the benifit of the dogs they should teach two more commands. "Stop" to stop the dog when it get's to the bird and "pick it up" to get the dog to reach down and pick up the bird. Then you need to add another "hold" so the dog know's to hold the object he picked up and "here boy so the dog will understand he needs to bring it back. This is very confussing to write. If it's alright with the "hold" crowd, I'll just teach my dogs to "fetch".
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Re: Teaching "hold"

Post by birddogger » Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:41 pm

It's alright with me but I will continue to teach hold first. :D

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Re: Teaching "hold"

Post by jcbuttry8 » Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:46 pm

I force fetch the same way I break a dog. It never hurts to start early but you should be putting no pressure on the dog. Get rid of the treats. If the treats are a few good pats on the head and alot of love then that is all the pup will expect in the field. My pup is 9 mos old and doing bird work now. She is held at steady on the release of the bird and we are also doing backing drills. There is no pressure. Just showing her the ropes and getting her ready to break next summer. That is when the pressure will be brought. Never hurts to show them the ropes. Play fetch. Keep it fun. I agree with most, no pressure til after a year, but play fetch now. You will need less pressure later.

I might be wrong, but what i have seen with most who break later, they have way more dogs than those of us that have one or two. They wait till later to break the dog completely. Just my opinion.

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Re: Teaching "hold"

Post by ultracarry » Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:05 pm

Ok Don ... by adding another element the scenario was flawed because it included the fetch / pick up part in the scenario.. so remove it to just you telling the dog to hold when it has a bird in its mouth... dog spits it out. Drops it 2 feet from you. How do you reinforce the command when the dog turns and goes to find another bird? It disobeyed ... I know what I would do to an older dog but how about 5 months... can you try to call it back because you know people wouldn't dare use an e-collar... have it blow you off maybe a second time?

P.S. I don't use fetch in the field. Too many people use it. I use "pretty pretty please ill pet you if you obey" I know pathetic, but it works. I believe in positive reinforcement. All commands are optional unless she wants to be praised.

Forgot to add... I give two clicks for being good and only one for not obeying. She gets sad when she only hears one click. :cry:

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Re: Teaching "hold"

Post by brad27 » Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:08 pm

:lol:

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Re: Teaching "hold"

Post by DonF » Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:41 pm

birddogger wrote:It's alright with me but I will continue to teach hold first. :D

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Re: Teaching "hold"

Post by DonF » Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:52 pm

ultracarry wrote:Ok Don ... by adding another element the scenario was flawed because it included the fetch / pick up part in the scenario.. so remove it to just you telling the dog to hold when it has a bird in its mouth... dog spits it out. Drops it 2 feet from you. How do you reinforce the command when the dog turns and goes to find another bird? It disobeyed ... I know what I would do to an older dog but how about 5 months... can you try to call it back because you know people wouldn't dare use an e-collar... have it blow you off maybe a second time?

P.S. I don't use fetch in the field. Too many people use it. I use "pretty pretty please ill pet you if you obey" I know pathetic, but it works. I believe in positive reinforcement. All commands are optional unless she wants to be praised.

Forgot to add... I give two clicks for being good and only one for not obeying. She gets sad when she only hears one click. :cry:
I don't use fetch either, I simply say the dogs name. I teach fetch going in and turn over the the name when they are where I want them.

With a five month old pup, I'd still have it on a check cord and would not give it a fetch farther than the cord can reach. If the pup spits it, I'd knock it away and get him to go get it again, lots closer this time. Hopefully I can get him before he spits it. Or you could watch him and just before he spits it, give him the command you use to release the bird. At that age it's more important to keep the pup doing it but at the same time set it up for the command later on. That is why I'd use the release command when he spits. If you don't time it right just let it go and knock it away for him to pounce on again.

I like that "pretty please". In fact you could teach your dog to to retrive on the "pertty please" command. All that would happen is the dog would learn that "pretty Please" means to do a function we usually pin the term "fetch" on. All the same to the dog. Unless of course you have a dog that speaks a foreign language! :mrgreen:
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Re: Teaching "hold"

Post by EvanG » Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:46 pm

DonF wrote:They are teaching "hold" as a seperate command. Not sure why a dog would "fetch" when told to "hold" unless "hold" was used as the command to "fetch".
It depends on how they were trained, and what commands they have been habituated to. They don't ever acquire human language skills, so the word isn't an issue. Just be consistent with which word you choose for which function. Dogs trained by German-speaking trainers respond just fine to commands in German, for example.
birddogger wrote:It's alright with me but I will continue to teach hold first. :D

Charlie
Me too.

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Re: Teaching "hold"

Post by DonF » Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:38 pm

Absolutely. You'll never get a dog to learn english, they respond to specific words that key them to an action. I used to fool with my old dog years ago and I would tell her what I wanted and the command word was in there. Had a lot of people thinking she understood english. I had a horse I used to trial off of and judge off of. Loved fooling with the kids. I'd drop rhe reins and hold my hands up as tho I had a steering wheel. Then on the way in the kids would see me turn the wheel and the horse would go that way. Magic! Then I'd ask then if he was close enough to the curd, they always said no, so I'd side path him to the make believe curve. Then they'ed tell me that I went to far and I had to get off the curb so I'd side path him back over. With each turn I'd thell him which way to turn, that horse didn't have a clue what I was talking about. Then to side path him I explain to him that he was to far from the crub and had to move over and then of course get back off the curb. Not only the kids but a number of adults that had no clue bought the idea the horse understood englih, What the horse under stood was cues with my legs and heels to do a certain thing. Sure was fun.

Take your dog out and teach it to fetch but use ball for the cue word. Then if a friend come's come's over, take him out to see your dog fetch. Throw the ball and tell your dog "fetch". Of course the dog hasn't a clue what that means, you never taught it. So then fake being upset with the dog and tell him "How displeased you are and he'd better go get the "ball". The last word is ball and that is the fetch command. Even a lot of people on here might thinf the dog had been taught english, who ever heard of "ball" meaning "fetch". The dog did! It's a hoot to mess with peoples minds like that. Had a girl friend some years back that was certain my old Otis could speak english because she always saw hin respond to sentence's. I never did tell her the truth, to this day she think's that was the smartest dog that ever lived! :mrgreen:
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Re: Teaching "hold"

Post by Trekmoor » Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:19 pm

This thread has me scratching my head in puzzlement. Crackerd is correct in saying that Irish and British gundog trainers don't train "hold" or at least not to any great extent. I do pop a dummy dropped at my feet by a pup gently back into it's mouth and then praise as the dog holds it . I suppose this could be considered a very light part of F.F. ?

While I fully accept that a good F.F. training programme is just about a neccessity if you wish to win trials in the States I just don't see that it is needed for a well bred gundog that was born wanting to retrieve and that is surely one of the things that breeders breed for ........ or am I wrong ? Any one of my own dogs will retrieve any species of game that they have so far encountered ---- pheasants, pigeon, partridge, grouse, snipe, woodcock , ducks, geese, rabbits and hares. Probably in the cover the dogs normally work in I won't even know when they have found a dead or pricked bird so I couldn't tell them to pick it up even if I wanted to. It is rare for me to have problems with this so unless the dogs or the game are very different in the states I just don't see the need for F.F. ......... I'd do it if I had to but I don't have to and neither does anyone else I know.

Mike (Crackerd) why do you say it is mainly pointing dog owners that use a toe cord ? Why do retriever owners use an ear pinch instead when teaching F.F. ? I will probably never use either method but I'd like to understand the reasoning behind this just in case I need to !

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Re: Teaching "hold"

Post by ultracarry » Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:44 pm

You would be amazed at the difference between a force fetched dpg and natural retrieve... try it. If you don't like the dog when your done... sell it.

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Re: Teaching "hold"

Post by Trekmoor » Sat Dec 24, 2011 5:44 am

I have tried it. I trained dogs, non -gundogs,meant for the obedience ring F.F. because they had little or no natural retrieving instinct for me to work on . I worked one of those dogs as a gundog too. I know F.F. works and works well but I question the neccessity for using it on the great majority of gundogs.
If I can take a lab, a spaniel or a brit or GSP out hunting or to big driven shoots where up to 600 birds are shot in a day knowing they will retrieve anything shot why would I need to train them F.F. ?

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Re: Teaching "hold"

Post by DonF » Sat Dec 24, 2011 9:56 am

Trekmoor wrote:I have tried it. I trained dogs, non -gundogs,meant for the obedience ring F.F. because they had little or no natural retrieving instinct for me to work on . I worked one of those dogs as a gundog too. I know F.F. works and works well but I question the neccessity for using it on the great majority of gundogs.
If I can take a lab, a spaniel or a brit or GSP out hunting or to big driven shoots where up to 600 birds are shot in a day knowing they will retrieve anything shot why would I need to train them F.F. ?

Bill T.
There was a time not so long back that I forced all my dogs. Today I question the practice except on trial dogs or dogs that simply won't retrieve, are hard mouth, maybe a bit soft and dogs I am going to break. What finally occured to me was that the dogs that weren't forced, most were retrieveing very well and with experience, retrieved as well, or better, as any hunter would want. I also knew a lot of trialer's that didn't force their dog's. For some reason most of those dogs retrieved as well as any forced dog.

I think that the problem has become that it is thought to be the only way dog's can be taught to retrieve. On another site every tine a retrieving problem come's up the automatic answer is to force the dog. While that may usually fix the problem, there are usually other ways around the problem.
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Re: Teaching "hold"

Post by Trekmoor » Sat Dec 24, 2011 10:54 am

DonF wrote:
I think that the problem has become that it is thought to be the only way dog's can be taught to retrieve. On another site every tine a retrieving problem come's up the automatic answer is to force the dog. While that may usually fix the problem, there are usually other ways around the problem.
I agree. This is the main thing I have noticed since I began looking at U.S. gundog training sites a few years ago. Perhaps this is because , in my experience anyway, it is quicker to train a dog to retrieve using F.F. than it often is when using other methods ? A pro-trainers clients don't usually want their dog to be with the pro trainer for any longer than it takes to get the job done.

With the dogs I train both for myself and for others I make a pretty slow progression through retrieve training. My clients are happy with this because they know most other British trainers use much the same methods............. besides which the average British shooting man has probably never heard of either F.F. or C.T. training ! :lol:
This doesn't seem to be the case in the States where speed ......or maybe value for dollars spent in terms of time with a pro-trainer seems to matter more and where the average hunter has at least heard of F.F. training ?

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Re: Teaching "hold"

Post by crackerd » Sat Dec 24, 2011 1:06 pm

Trekmoor wrote:I have tried it. I trained dogs, non-gundogs, meant for the obedience ring F.F. because they had little or no natural retrieving instinct for me to work on .
Bill, surely you've ascertained by now that's using force as a last resort - not to mention the poorest rationale for force fetching a dog (alas it's also serves as the impetus behind many pointing dog trainers - HPR trainers too - who force-break their dogs).

If there's 1 in 1,000 retrievers - performance retrievers of any breed - that falls into the category of "little or no natural retrieving instinct" that's 10 times more than my experience leads to believe. I'd also wager that if there's 1 in 1,000 gundogs that fall into that category, it's on the owner who's most likely failed to introduce retrieving properly or waited too late to start.

Except for forcing my own dogs as a matter of choice - and to put the foundation in them for handling (that's precision handling, which you have little of, and little use for in the UK, especially at great distances) - I pretty much agree with what Don's getting at below. His last sentence is irrelevant to what I'm after by imparting force fetch to a dog, because I reiterate, for the 10th time: for retriever trainers, it ain't about "retrieving as well as" and only coincidentally about "retrieving" at all.
DonF wrote:There was a time not so long back that I forced all my dogs. Today I question the practice except on trial dogs or dogs that simply won't retrieve, are hard mouth, maybe a bit soft and dogs I am going to break. What finally occured to me was that the dogs that weren't forced, most were retrieveing very well and with experience, retrieved as well, or better, as any hunter would want. I also knew a lot of trialer's that didn't force their dog's. For some reason most of those dogs retrieved as well as any forced dog.
MG

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Re: Teaching "hold"

Post by h&t » Sun Dec 25, 2011 9:41 pm

That's a very good discussion.
trekmoor chimed in. I am a big believer in the way Brits train dogs - they have some experience :lol:

I find the whole 2 commands vs 1 command debate a little ridiculous. Either method obviously works.
Dogs are fully capable of interpreting the same command in a certain context.
E.g. when I call my dog and stand there waiting she comes and sits in front of me.
When I call her (the same command) and walk away - she comes and heels. BTW, that's the way I want it :-)
The same command, diffferent context, altered behavour.

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Re: Teaching "hold"

Post by DonF » Mon Dec 26, 2011 11:44 am

Thats a good description. When I used to call my dogs they'd either come to me and stand still or would also come and heel if I was walking. I used to teach it with their obedience. If I was on a horse they would come heel to the horse. What being called amounted to was a place they were supposed to be, not necessarily a single function. I'm getting old and I was told I'm getting easy and that might be right. My dog's now perform no where as well as the dogs I actually spent time training.
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Re: Teaching "hold"

Post by Trekmoor » Tue Dec 27, 2011 11:59 am

DonF wrote: I'm getting old and I was told I'm getting easy and that might be right. My dog's now perform no where as well as the dogs I actually spent time training.
I sympathise with those comments Don ! :lol:

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Re: Teaching "hold"

Post by Vaoutdoors42 » Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:07 am

I thank everyone for there input. I will not be force fetching Jackson at 6 months...will work this when I feel the dog and me are ready. I have continued to work on "hold" with no pressure and have done away with the treats. He is doing very well and I will keep working with him.

Here is Jackson lastnite working on "hold" with a paint roller.
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Re: Teaching "hold"

Post by birddog1968 » Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:42 am

Trek, you speak of training the retrieve in your last post....could you elaborate on that process for us?
The second kick from a mule is of very little educational value - from Wing and Shot.

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Re: Teaching "hold"

Post by Trekmoor » Wed Dec 28, 2011 3:11 pm

Bird dog , just as most of you do I begin with very simple, short distance, run-in marked retrieves. I normally use a soft article, not neccessarily a dummy......old woolen socks work fine. With a small pup or an uncertain older one I begin on the floor of the hallway or within the confines of my small back garden. I usually sit on the ground to allow the pup to gallop straight back and come right into my chest with the retrieve. I pretty much ignore the retrieve article and give the pup a big fussing over.If the pup drops the dummy the fussing stops.

Should I be given an older pup to train - 6 to 12 months old, then I begin in the garden after letting the pup get used to soft living inside my house for a few days. I sit on the doorsteps with the door to the house wide open behind me. The article is tossed up the pathway for the pup .......but only after it has had time to explore my small garden and find out there is nothing there to interest it.
The pup must now either want to bring the dummy right into me as I sit there ready to accept the pups return or it may want to get back into the house (a retrieve to a place rather than to a person ?) Whichever is the case the pup still encounters me and still gets fussed.

I then repeat this but with the door shut behind me, usually the pup will still retrieve right into my chest. I now take a little stool and sit on it in front of the steps and do more retrieving and more fussing while sitting on it. Then ,just a couple of feet at a time, I begin to move the stool away from the doorsteps and can eventually expect the pup to retrieve to me no matter where I place it inside the garden. I used to do this while simply crouching down but age has taken it's toll on me . :x

From there things get more interesting, I move out of the garden and repeat this style of retrieve on short grass and then among very light cover. I begin to use every kind of dummy or soft article I can get my hands on. The weights vary greatly,and the sizes and textures vary greatly. I like to know my dogs will be keen retrievers of "bleep" near anything.If elements of the original retrieve remain the same, such as the crouch, the style of throw or the place the pup has been used to retrieving from then most pups respond by still wanting to fetch the varying articles. No compulsion of any kind is used and steadiness is not even thought about !

I'm training a very soft vizsla pup right now and although she is about 10 months old she still only sits to voice when she is within six feet of me. Despite her not fancying retrieving very much to begin with , she is now a fairly acomplished retriever of dead pheasants and even cock pheasant runners among fairly thick cover. It has taken me 4 months to reach this stage with her and I am in no hurry to hurry up the pace of training. I put a dogs enthusiasm for the job first and add the "fancy stuff" later.
This pup will be unlikely to ever win a field trial, she lacks the range and pace while hunting.....but she will be a good reliable retrieverand a good hunting dog for anyone not requiring F.T. standards of hunting . Her owner puts no pressure whatsover on me to hurry the job. If he did I'd tell him to take her elsewhere. she will be a next season bitch.

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Re: Teaching "hold"

Post by Vaoutdoors42 » Wed Dec 28, 2011 6:23 pm

The Versatile Hunting Dog published by NAVHDA had a good article called "Training a Reliable Retriever" which seemed to have cetain concepts which lend itself to this topic.
I thought it was very intersting to read... Article talks about a a trainer who starts working on hold with pups at 3 month using positive reinforcement. It usually takes him 2 months to complete this. The "force" usually only takes 2-3 days to complete, since dog understand what trainer wants and likes doing it.

Anyone read this?

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Re: Teaching "hold"

Post by Waterdogs1 » Mon Feb 06, 2012 10:27 am

I think it depends on the level of expectations. Interesting read.
http://cottonwoodretrievers.com/ "Our Passion is Retrievers"

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