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Thought my dog was deaf!

Thought my dog was deaf!

Postby nitecapt » Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:40 pm

Previous thread title (young independent pup with no "Pack" instinct.

Hi All,
I'm looking for some training pointers on a suituation I have not ever encountered in the past. I have a 10 week old French Brit pup, obtained at 8 weeks. I also have two 10 month old female dogs that are on their way as far as training goes.
The pup does not seem to have any pack behavior, does he play with the other dogs? Yes, but only when he wants to chase or play.
He actually climbs on them and bites their ears which they tolerate to a point and then put him in his place.
Otherwise we might all be in the den watching television (all the dogs) and he leaves to go into another room to lay down.
When I first observed him with littermates, I did notice that the litter curled up at the breeders feet and he went off to sleep under a table some 15' away. He doesn't much like to be held, so I hold him through the squirming until he submits and he will often then fall asleep in my arms. Typically when I have had young pups in the past and they are outside, a whistle or high pitched excited "here pup" brings them running. This little guy acts as if he's deaf. Doesn't even look up! (he isn't deaf, just rattle the cookie jar and he comes running) He stays outside after the other dogs cme in and will run from me if I come out to get him. He has been taken to noisy busy shopping malls for pets by strangers and has been exposed to children to some extent.
On the positive side, he has warmed up a little since we have gotten him. He is not crated (my wiife refuses) and he sleeps in the bed with all of us. Another positive....I have had MANY hunting dogs and this guy may havethe strongest prey instinct of any I have ever seen. He locks and stays on point as soon as a tethered wing hits the ground. Classic point with leg up. He will chase anyting that moves and a laser dot drives him so nuts I can no longer use it. He has experiened live quail and he's starting to scent point them. He has been taken afield on a leash and shows no reaction to a 20 guage fired some 50' away. (Yes, I started at 120 yards) The other dogs took till they were 4 months old.
I have used the pack instinct to my advantage when training dogs in the past. Their need to be close to me as the alpha allowed me to easily train them.
So, for you knowlegeable trainers here, now that he is accustomed to the home and training must begin in earnest, how do I fly under the radar and either modify this dogs behavior which I don't think is possible or what is the best way to appeal to this personality for the most effective training.
I look forward to any help you all can provide.

Best regards & Happy New Year
Ray
Last edited by nitecapt on Mon Jan 09, 2012 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Young "Independant" pup w/no Pack Instinct?

Postby DonF » Tue Dec 27, 2011 2:36 pm

I don't think he's necessarily lacking in pack instinc, what ever that means. I think what your seeing is a lot of independence. My old Hannah was that way. When I went to pick her up, I wanted the male that looked exactly like her, wouldn't sell him. Da*m! So I took Hannah home with me. Took several days to get her to warm up much and then when turned loose, she was the devil to catch. She turned into one of my all time favorites; her and Skipper were on a level of their own, and she was independent till the day she died. She seemed to know her job at birth and ignored my ignorance! I miss her every day of my life!
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Re: Young "Independant" pup w/no Pack Instinct?

Postby nitecapt » Tue Dec 27, 2011 3:47 pm

Thank you Don

Did you train her any differently than the other dogs? Was there anything special about what you did to appeal to that independent personality?
Ray
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Re: Young "Independant" pup w/no Pack Instinct?

Postby Sharon » Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:36 pm

I've got a young dog who sounds exactly like yours. She doesn't want patting or to curl up on the couch like the others. You'll always find her lying in another room. I just put it down to differences in pups. They can all be raised the same but their individual preferences will always be evident.
Last edited by Sharon on Tue Dec 27, 2011 9:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Young "Independant" pup w/no Pack Instinct?

Postby johnboy31 » Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:24 pm

im gona have to agree with don F on this one sounds like the pup is just real independent
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Re: Young "Independant" pup w/no Pack Instinct?

Postby nitecapt » Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:31 pm

johnboy31 wrote:im gona have to agree with don F on this one sounds like the pup is just real independent



I understand and agree. I'm just asking about any "special" techniques (if any) in handling such a pup.
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Re: Young "Independant" pup w/no Pack Instinct?

Postby DonF » Tue Dec 27, 2011 11:13 pm

I'm not sure this will come out right but if more people spent less time training and more time understanding their dog, they'd have better dogs. You are probably trying to make something out of that that isn't there! I think that is humane nature!
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Re: Young "Independant" pup w/no Pack Instinct?

Postby nitecapt » Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:10 am

Don,
I completely understand and now I'm going to sound like a fool because I've been trying to see if he even hears me at all and it's looking to me like he's deaf. His reactions to food and stuff mirror the other dogs behavior and if he's sleeping and I clap my hands from a distance of 10-15feet he doesn't budge. I blew an acme thunderer whistle and he seemed to wake up but it was awfully loud and he might have been sensitive to teh vibrations. He's going to the vet next week for a follow up and I'll have him checked there. he came to us with a pretty bad ear mite problem which seems to be better but, I'm all upset aout this now.

Thank you for your patience in dealing with my questions!
There are so many nice people on this board.
Ray
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Re: Young "Independant" pup w/no Pack Instinct?

Postby Sharon » Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:13 am

Hardness of hearing is more of a problem than people realize. Good on you for looking into it.
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Re: Young "Independant" pup w/no Pack Instinct?

Postby nitecapt » Wed Dec 28, 2011 2:12 pm

He has been on meds for ear mites since we got him. The vet has suggested we take him off the meds as sometimes one of the ingredients can cause temporary hearing loss. He will be examined next week and if he's still deaf after two week, we will be taking him to s specialist. Also, the ear mites alone can cause deafness
We'll see. Meanwhile I am really upset about the whole thing.
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Re: Young "Independant" pup w/no Pack Instinct?

Postby tahi193 » Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:17 pm

I'm certainly not a trainer but your pup sounds a lot like my Ellie. She didn't really like being held as a young puppy either. She still prefers her bed on the floor to sitting with people on the sofa and she cares nothing about sleeping in the bed with me. However, she loves me being in the room and she looks for me if I step out for a minute.

When she got big enough to play with the adult dogs she would jump all over them and actually take food (treats and chews) away from them. Since she has grown older I think some sort of pecking order has been established because she's not so bold with the older dogs anymore.

Ellie is almost 9 months old now and she will hunt things all day in the yard if I let her. She never, ever stops. If I call her she won't even look at me about 75% of the time. Sometimes calling her name gets her attention but she will only come running if she's flat out exhausted and ready to come in and sleep. We're working on that. However, she just recently went out on a pseudo-hunt and we found that she responds to a whistle quite well and pays attention to where we are.

As Ellie gets older I find that she values my attention/praise more. She's still not one to seek out affection a lot but she is still a gentle, sweet dog and seems to have quite a bit of natural talent. I don't have much advice except that I have used a clicker and food to get basic house manners down with Ellie. She's very food motivated. The downside to that is it's hard to phase out the food because she's smart enough to know when there's food and when there isn't. Sounds like we both just have clever, independent pups. It definitely makes life more challenging.
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Re: Young "Independant" pup w/no Pack Instinct?

Postby birddogger » Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:23 pm

One of the things that I love about dogs is that they each have their own personalities.

Charlie
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Re: Young "Independant" pup w/no Pack Instinct?

Postby nitecapt » Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:31 pm

tahi193 wrote:I'm certainly not a trainer but your pup sounds a lot like my Ellie. She didn't really like being held as a young puppy either. She still prefers her bed on the floor to sitting with people on the sofa and she cares nothing about sleeping in the bed with me. However, she loves me being in the room and she looks for me if I step out for a minute.

When she got big enough to play with the adult dogs she would jump all over them and actually take food (treats and chews) away from them. Since she has grown older I think some sort of pecking order has been established because she's not so bold with the older dogs anymore.

Ellie is almost 9 months old now and she will hunt things all day in the yard if I let her. She never, ever stops. If I call her she won't even look at me about 75% of the time. Sometimes calling her name gets her attention but she will only come running if she's flat out exhausted and ready to come in and sleep. We're working on that. However, she just recently went out on a pseudo-hunt and we found that she responds to a whistle quite well and pays attention to where we are.

As Ellie gets older I find that she values my attention/praise more. She's still not one to seek out affection a lot but she is still a gentle, sweet dog and seems to have quite a bit of natural talent. I don't have much advice except that I have used a clicker and food to get basic house manners down with Ellie. She's very food motivated. The downside to that is it's hard to phase out the food because she's smart enough to know when there's food and when there isn't. Sounds like we both just have clever, independent pups. It definitely makes life more challenging.



This week we get to see what the cause of his hearing loss is. It's hard when you have a few dogs. Sometimes it looks like he's responding to sound but he may be queuing on the other dogs behavior or smells
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Re: Young "Independant" pup w/no Pack Instinct?

Postby AzDoggin » Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:06 pm

nitecapt wrote:This week we get to see what the cause of his hearing loss is. It's hard when you have a few dogs. Sometimes it looks like he's responding to sound but he may be queuing on the other dogs behavior or smells


Dogs who lose one sense are unbelievably adaptable! We have a dog who is essentially blind. Over time, he's gained an amazing amount of use and trust from his other senses. If your dog is otherwise healthy and intelligent, the loss of hearing will probably not limit him at all as a hunting dog, or around your house for that matter. Hey, for one thing you don't have to worry about gunshyness!
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Re: Young "Independant" pup w/no Pack Instinct?

Postby Sharon » Sun Jan 01, 2012 11:22 pm

I have a blind dog. They definately need a beeper that is operated by the hand held transmitter. Otherwise they get lost.

I have a deaf dog. he has a beeper too but i also use the bzzzz feature . When buzzed he knows to come in to the handler

We are all pretty old here now. :) My youngest dog is 6.
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Re: Young "Independant" pup w/no Pack Instinct?

Postby DonF » Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:42 am

My Skipper went deaf early in life. Didn't seem to bother him but bothered me. When he got old he also went blind. But he had to have a good nose. If I went somewhere without him he'd take off after me. The wife said he's run on the same course I had walked. If he was asleep in the livingroom, he still knew when thr fridge door opened. And if I went to bed without him, he'd be in before I knew it. Seemed like he had a sence we don't know about.

If the vet said the drops could cause some hearing loos, I wouldn't worry till he's off the drops and visit's the vet again.
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Was: Possibly deaf pup now "More questions than answers"

Postby nitecapt » Mon Jan 09, 2012 6:07 pm

If you've been following this thread, I was of the opinion that my dog was deaf. You might have read that at 12 weeks he didn't show ANY reaction to a shotgun blast, didn't wake up with a clap a whistle or pots clanging. I have had LOTS of pups and have hunted over most. NEVER have I seen a hearing puppy NOT react in some way.
Sooooo we went to NY City where they did a BAER test on the pup.A BAER test is the only 100% reliable method for determining that a dog is deaf (or for measuring the extent of its hearing loss). BAER (pronounced "bear") stands for "Brainstem Auditory Evoked Response" and is a procedure using computers to record the electrical activity of the brain in response to sound stimulation. They do the same test on human infants. It was worth every penny for the consult and the test. The results? He has a brain response when subjected to sound. That is, the sound is picked up by the nerves and transmitted to the brain. What the brain does with it cannot be determined. The veterinary neurologist was amazed at his lack of response to auditory stimuli (whistle & hand clap) and has no idea whether the brain is "processing" sounds into meaning or not. Recently, although his aloof attitude remains, I am getting clear indications that he can hear and that he can respond. The cookie jar opening can be heard. If he's sleeping he won't wake up but if he's awake, he hears it. If I say a sharp "NO!" he seems to get it. Still the vet is surprised at his lack of reaction to any noise.

My question for you all is whether you have run across a situation where a young pup just didn't give a "bleep" about sounds, noises, shotgun blasts and commands etc. Behaving like he was deaf but wasn't. Was that dog harder to train than others?
This guy's housebreaking is pretty tough, I take him out, run him around and sometimes as soon as he walks into the house, he will pee. Generally, he will go to the door when he needs to go out but it's surprising that he might wait till he gets back in to go.
This guy is perplexing.

Any observations?

Thanks again and Happy New Year to all.
Ray
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Re: Thought my dog was deaf!

Postby Sharon » Mon Jan 09, 2012 6:20 pm

This is very common with children - auditory perception problem.(Google). It is one of many learning disabilities. The ear is fine. hearing aids or surgery wouldn't help as it is the brain processing area that is defective.

I have a deaf dog (and a husband sometimes). He still hunts great but of course can't hear a whistle or shout. I use a hand held transmitter beeper collar. I can use the button when I can't find him and I've taught him that the bzzz means come in to me.

I use some hand movements too. You'll find yourself saying a lot less. Your dog will be fine hunting with you. You just need to learn some different ways to be heard.

http://www.google.ca/search?sourceid=na ... y+and+dogs
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Re: Was: Possibly deaf pup now "More questions than answers"

Postby RoostersMom » Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:15 am

nitecapt wrote:This guy's housebreaking is pretty tough, I take him out, run him around and sometimes as soon as he walks into the house, he will pee. Generally, he will go to the door when he needs to go out but it's surprising that he might wait till he gets back in to go.
This guy is perplexing.

Any observations?

Thanks again and Happy New Year to all.
Ray


Ray, glad to hear the pup isn't deaf. I don't have any good advice on how to work with him except that maybe more one on one time and definately CRATE train him. I don't have to live with your wife, but I will tell you that it will make many aspects of your problems get better. One-on-one with the pup when he is out of the crate (no other dogs) will help with him responding to you. He only gets out to potty and to either play or work with you.

As for your wife's objections to the crate....I helped out at the Joplin tornado last year and swear I will never own a dog that isn't crate trained. What about when the pup needs to go to the vet overnight - it helps that he's crate trained. Natural disaster and he needs to be crated for weeks at a time (like in Joplin), safety when on long car rides, family emergency and someone needs to dogsit for a couple of days. Really, you're doing this for his sake - making him comfortable in a crate. It will also make your housetraining go about 80% better immediately. If your pup was mine, he'd be living in a crate and would be out only when I was working directly with him and exercising him. I'd keep all the other dogs out of this situation until he is listening to you. Sounds to me like he needs more one-on-one with you and needs some confinement in between so that he is more focused when he does get the chance to be out there with you.

Keep us updated on how he does...I'm glad he doesn't have hearing loss, he's just like my husband...selective hearing!
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