Clicker training retrieve.

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 6:50 pm

Anyone ever clicker trained a dog to retrieve? Cinna is a softer dog (when she's not in the field), I hate force breaking and she doesn't show too terribly natural retrieving instincts, so I've decided to experiment with clicker training to retrieve because I think I'm going to try NSTRA with her. I'm not a huge fan of clicker training birddogs, but think this could really work well to teach it, then reinforce with an eCollar.

I started conditioning her last night and am going to go through an entire pack of hot dogs for conditioning before I introduce the bumper. I'll let you guys know how it goes. So far she's not picking up the concept as fast as I'd like, but I think we're right at the point where the light just switched on in her head. If she shows enough progress I'll start with the bumper tonight.

Post by **Sharon** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 7:46 pm

What series of behaviours are you cueing/clicking on?

edited for spelling

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:01 pm

Why do you "Hate" force breaking to retrieve?

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:01 pm

Alright, since clicker training is not too popular among birddog folks, I think I'll walk through the logic real fast. It goes back to Pavlov's Law. Pavlov was a Russian psychologist who did a series of experiments with dogs. He ran small hoses from dogs' saliva glands to a catch dish and, before dinner time, would ring a bell (or do some other que) directly before feeding the dogs. When dogs are about to eat they generate saliva, so after several, several times of ringing the bell before meal time, Pavlov rang the bell, but didn't feed the dogs. The dogs generated saliva. The conclusion was that, simply enough, que=reward. So, dog trainers started using clickers. Different people will condition dogs to the clicker different ways, but I just sit down with a ton of treats and a clicker. Click once, pop the dog a treat; click once, pop the dog a treat; repeat. You do this enough and they start to understand that click=treat. The genius of clicker training is because of how critical timing is in dog training (I'm sure you all already knew that). The sooner you can mark a behavior with a reward, the faster the dog will learn. Well, the sound of a click practically instantaneously registers with the dog, as opposed to popping them a treat - having to grab the treat, present it to the dog, get the dog's attention with the treat, then giving it to the dog - or making a correction. You can shave a second or two off your timing delay. When a dog has learned several things with a clicker, he begins to realize he needs to remember what he was doing when he heard the click, then do it again for a treat. Basically, the click is the treat.

Just got done for the night and made some pretty nice progress right towards the end. Cinna was going well and we finished a bunch of "micro session" of about two or three minutes. Before long she could hear the click from a room away and would come running. Perfect! So, I grabbed the dummy, heated up some sliced weiner, sat down and waited. And waited, and waited, and waited.

Finally, she got bored and decided to inspect the bumper. As sooner as her nose got close to it, "click". Followed right up with a treat. She was still pretty unsure of the situation and, honestly, the clicker made her uneasy when I clicked it close to her. We did this several and it picked up a little, but with her inexperience with a clicker that's to be expected.

She would lean in to show some interest in the bumper, I'd click and she'd jump back. The clicker was still bothering her. So, I sat the bumper on the floor between us, about two feet in front of me. We sat for a couple minutes and she went down to sniff it. "Click." Good deal. A lot of sitting in the early sessions. It took about fifteen minutes to go through both hotdogs, but the last twenty or so clicks were rapid-fire. She barely picked her nose up off the bumper except to catch a treat. Good deal!

So, she's got the basic concept down alittle. We'll keep doing this until she starts to hound me when I pick up the bumper. Then I'll start making her touch it with her mouth instead of just sniffing or showing interest. From there I'll make her bite it a little, then I'll make her keep it in her mouth for a little bit, then I'll start to take my hand off while she's holding it. Should be all downhill from there. I'm looking forward to the new experience.

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:04 pm

68, I just don't enjoy it. I don't like liver and gizzards, don't like the Dallas Cowboys and don't like force breaking. I've not found a way I though was fair to a lot of dogs and I think it's just unecessary to do that to a dog. If I could find a less stressful, less painful way to do it, I'd jump on it in a second. Do you know of any?

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:06 pm

Me thinks you are overthinking this and adding human emotions which are not applicable to a dogs mind.

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:15 pm

I disagree with that. I think dogs are really very emotional animals. Dogs feel the same fear, love, sadness, desire, etc, that humans do. I dont, though, believe in anthropomorphism and displacing human characteristics or thought processes onto dogs.

I think maybe I misunderstood you. Do you mean dogs have no feelings or that dogs think different than people?

Coveyrise64 · Post by **Coveyrise64** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:32 pm

To be fair, how many dogs are you talking about?

Stoneface wrote:I've not found a way I though was fair to a lot of dogs........

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:37 pm

Coveyrise64 wrote:To be fair, how many dogs are you talking about?

Stoneface wrote:I've not found a way I though was fair to a lot of dogs........

No one mentioned a fair! Thought that was months away.

You can't clicker train retrieving. You can clicker train a chain of behaviors, but the natural retrieve has to be in the dog to get the whole thing to work. Ask my brown dog.

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:45 pm

Coveyrise64 wrote:To be fair, how many dogs are you talking about?

That's a good point. I've personally force trained only about five or so dogs and have seen maybe another 10 or 20 done, so not many. A few - but, just a very few - really just let it roll of their back like water to a duck. Maybe I should reword and say, "I've not found a way I thought would probably be fair to a lot of dogs."

Casey, I'm not trying to bring out her natural retrieving instinct with clicker training. I am honestly not even sure if she has much natural retrieve to being with. I'm going to "clicker train a chain of behaviors" to get her from being totally green to understanding that when I say fetch, it means to get this in your mouth and hold it. From there I'll reinforce with the eCollar.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:22 pm

Stoneface wrote:
Coveyrise64 wrote:To be fair, how many dogs are you talking about?
That's a good point. I've personally force trained only about five or so dogs and have seen maybe another 10 or 20 done, so not many. A few - but, just a very few - really just let it roll of their back like water to a duck. Maybe I should reword and say, "I've not found a way I thought would probably be fair to a lot of dogs."

Casey, I'm not trying to bring out her natural retrieving instinct with clicker training. I am honestly not even sure if she has much natural retrieve to being with. I'm going to "clicker train a chain of behaviors" to get her from being totally green to understanding that when I say fetch, it means to get this in your mouth and hold it. From there I'll reinforce with the eCollar.

Let me get this straight. Your using a clicker to try and bring out a natural trait that you don't think is there? Yep, I do believe your overthinking this!

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:27 pm

No, Don, haha. I'm NOT trying to bring out an instinct. I'm trying to train her for something that isn't natural to her. That's the whole point. Moxy's doing just fine naturally and as far as I'm concerned she'll never see any formal fetch training, even if that means she'll never be an efficient retriever.

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:50 pm

Probably doesn't apply here but check this out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyys0flP ... e=youtu.be

northern cajun · Post by **northern cajun** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:30 am

Stoneface wrote:No, Don, haha. I'm NOT trying to bring out an instinct. I'm trying to train her for something that isn't natural to her. That's the whole point. Moxy's doing just fine naturally and as far as I'm concerned she'll never see any formal fetch training, even if that means she'll never be an efficient retriever.

You lost me at the " even if that means she'll never be an efficient retriever". Really that is a conservation issue and you should always try more than 100% to recover game be it the dog or you and it as a team.
Efficient
performing or functioning in the best possible manner with the least waste of time and effort; having and using requisite knowledge, skill, and industry; competent; capable.

Of course some dogs retrieve better than others but you have to get the most out of each dog. Just my 2 cents.

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 3:23 pm

I don't usually C.T. dogs if I don't feel it would be the easiest way but I have used a clicker just about often enough to have some idea of how well it can work . Starting in the way you say you did had me wondering why ? If you were trying to "prime the clicker" with the hotdogs why did you think it was good to have the dog run towards you when you clicked ? You , at that stage, should only want the dog to associate the click with food , not with running towards you.

Your dog seemed wary of the click at close quarters ? Then why not click when the dog is several feet , or yards away, then toss the treat anywhere near the dog where it can see it on the floor or on the ground ? It wouldn't take the average dog long to stop having any worries about the click and it would still get the food reward. When clicker training it is very rare for me to give the dog the treat from my hand, it is normally tossed onto the floor for the click has already "marked" the correct behaviour by the dog. Should a dog drop a retrieve at a later stage in training because it has heard the click and expects the treat this does not matter much either. The dog has already performed the correct action in going out for, picking up and returning to you with the retrieve.
From there you simply cease to click for that last action and leave it to "free-shaping" which will have the dog teach itself that it now has to first touch your hand and then - finally place the dummy into your hand before it will hear the click it so much wants to hear . It is likely that the dog will try various behaviours to hear that click when free-shaping. It may drop the dummy,(no click) it may move in closer to you while holding the dummy (click) it may just touch your hand (click) it may push the dummy right into your hand (click) and give a jackpot size reward !

Bill T.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:10 pm

It is not that difficult, read some Karen Pryor. There is also a book called Positive Gun Dog which I think goes over this very thing. It should not be difficult as long as your dog likes hot dogs. I teach the components of FF this way, you may need to go over it with force when you"re finished depending on the dog and your expectations. I find it is more fair since the dog already knows what you want before you start forcing him to do it and teach him that he also "has" to do it no matter.

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:43 pm

I think people all over make dog training way too complicated. It's just human nature. I wanted Cinna to understand that when she hears a click, that means she's got a treat coming. That was my whole objective: click=treat. So, when she has the concept down I'll wait a while then, when the she's laying on the couch or whatever I'll click. If she pops her head up, ears up and look at me reall attentively, then she understands the clicker is a good thing. If she sluggishly looks at me out of the corner of her eye or doesn't acknowledge at all, then she's not got it down yet. When she's laying on the couch - or in the other room - then I click and she jumps up and runs over, you know she's understands that click=treat. May not be the typical way to condition - prime - but it works for me and the dogs always come out alright.

Does that make any more sense? I'm always open for trying new things. Have you done any fetch training with a clicker? How did it go for you?

Winchey, how much clicker fetching have you done? It all makes sense to me in my head, but that's not necessarily always a winning recipe! Do you see much acceleration or better response from the dogs?

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:24 pm

Better or faster? I don't know, have not had many dogs and have always done it first. It has never been difficult to progress from holding a dowl and clicking and rewarding for a touch, to a nip, to a short hold to a longer hold to taking it from different elevations to the floor to a distance and then overlaying commands. I just don't like teaching with force, training with force yes, but I like my dogs to know what I want before I force something.

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:27 pm

Winchey wrote:BettI just don't like teaching with force, training with force yes, but I like my dogs to know what I want before I force something.

+1

AzDoggin · Post by **AzDoggin** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:07 pm

Heck yes, complex behaviors can be taught to dogs using clickers. How do you think they teach killer whales and porpoises to do all the tricks at Sea World?

Here's Cindy Frawley teaching their horse to retreive using clicker training, so yes, the concept can be taught to a critter: http://leerburg.com/flix/videodesc.php?id=90 (the audio wouldn't play for me - but we have a gremlin in our computer speakers...)

Leerburg.com is full of advertisements, but here is a ton of info on "marker" training (their term for clickerless clicker training): http://leerburg.com/markers.htm

Many of the top trainers in protection sports are using marker training and their dogs are winning bigtime and with style, but obviously it does take a trainer who is extremely well-versed in behavioral methodology, and who can deliver the training with perfect precision and timing. Of course, the beauty of inducive training (compared to compulsive training) is that when the trainer makes the inevitable mistakes, the dog doesn't get screwed up.

Some of the videos from Leerburg are very good, but they are pricey. Watching Michael Ellis and his malinois is poetry in motion. It is amazing how well trained his dogs are, and he uses very few compulsive methods. Search YouTube for Ivan Balabanov if you want to see some unbelievable mal's doing amazing things as well. Here's one with Balabanov training: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5iQmAce67w There are lots of others. With most of the 'protection' breeds, the trainers start using food rewards with the pups, but eventually use tug rewards almost exclusively.

His video "Obedience without conflict: Clear Communication with your dog" is very well done - but also pricey. The compulsive methods you see the more traditional trainers using on the video will make you sick - but some of the old schoolers in training protection sport dogs apparently believed that you had to be rough with dogs to teach them to be tough themselves??

I see the inducive methods as another tool, another option. Is it the best and most effecient method to use for every facet of bird dog training? I doubt it. Can inducive methods play a role in some aspects of bird dog training? You betcha.

(Hey Stoneface - what kind of "games" do you play with your Mal?)

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:53 pm

The reason you see dogs retrieving during many exercises is because natural retrieving at 8 weeks is a selection criteria for many working dogs. You cannot compensate for natural retrieve because it is a component of prey drive sequence.

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 7:22 pm

English, Felicia. English.

AZ, that's pretty impressive. Do you mess much with working dogs?

Cindy's an artist with a clicker. She could train a bear to eat his own foot! If you are able to get ahold of their podcasts, they have one where Cindi clicker trains Ed to walk circles around a lawn chair. Ed is totally clueless when they start out and gets a Skittle after every click. It's really a phenomenal demo and I was just thinking about it the other day.

The best obedience I've ever seen on a dog was a routine with L'Jersey Loups Du Soleil (a dog Michael bred). The owner and I used to be in the same club and this dog was SHARP. Really pretty, too. Most Malinois I think are disproportionate, but Jersey was one handsome dude. And Ivan? Well, Ivan's the master! His book is the reason I bought a Malinois in the first place.

We don't really do much anymore. Found out about two years ago that Nissa had a wicked case of hip displaysia in her hind right hip. Then, to top it off, we were playing fetch with her earlier this year and she came down to hard on her front end and bulged a disc between her shoulder blades. Doc says it's just a matter of time before she does it again and we have to put her down. We kept her on RR for awhile, but she started getting obsessive about things and started to go stir crazy, carrying her toys with her everywhere she went. It was obvious she wanted to play so bad. So, I figured it's better for her to enjoy herself and have some fun for a year than to live out another five and not enjoy herself. I try to take it easy on her as I can, but we play disc and fetch and she still loves to chase the ducks down at the creek. We'll take the intermediate or puppy sleeve down once in awhile and my dad will catch her for me. Besides that we don't do much anymore. heck, she doesn't even listen to me anymore! Ol' bitty pretty much does what she wants.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 7:38 pm

All dog behavior is based on truncation of the prey drive sequence. This was established by Coppinger and Coppinger. GDFTB began using the retrieve as puppy selection criteria over sixty years ago.

And, I've yet to meet a Malinois I didn't want to boot off an overpass. Tervs are just about as bad. I don't like GSDs, either. Guess I just think of herding dogs only in black and white.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 7:58 pm

"Guess I just think of herding dogs only in black and white.

"

Are you saying you like border collies?

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 8:32 pm

Felicia, I disagree with both Coppingers. Are you familiar with William Khoeler? His methods are totally unrelated to prey drive. He basically dominated and punished most of his dogs into cooperation. And what about Barbara Woodhouse? Her methods didn't seem to be based off of prey drive. Ed Frawley (Leerburg, mentioned above), who has shepherds, breeds for a strong defense drive and, from what I understand, gears all his training towards specifically triggering defense drive instead of prey drive. It makes for a better personal protection dog, but not so much for sport.

I think gun dogs have the desire they do because of prey drive, working dogs are highly prey driven, but most of the dog training world does not operate off of prey drive. I may be totally wrong, but it's just my opinion.

And, on a personal note, I'm glad you're smart enough to realize your urge to boot a Malinois off an overpass would probably not be good for your health. I bet you'd love my Nissa, though. She's like a Bloodhound in a Malinois's body. You'd swear the dog smoked pot, but I haven't caughter her with it yet.

Post by **topher40** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:29 pm

[quote="Stoneface"]I think people all over make dog training way too complicated. It's just human nature. quote]

It also seems to be your nature to Rowdy. Why would you keep trying to re-invent the wheel that has served as such a good tool for millions of other dogs? You posted the other day something about having a new way to break dogs, good flying birds..... let the dog do its own learning..... but havent really done anything to prove, as you put it a theory. FF ing is not hard to painful for the dog if done correctly. Nothing more painful than a e- collar that you mention using. I have broke plenty of dogs of my own and of others using tried and true methods. I would suggest finding one that works then seeing how you would like to tweek (but not re-invent) to suit your needs. Also try find out what exactly you want out of your dogs, yourself as a trainer and the aforementioned methods that will suit you. A couple of months ago you were talking about running championships with your moxie dog, now your leaning towards NSTRA, but you still are curious about fiddler and Go Boy breeding. Look around, figure out what you want, then start something you can finish. Not trying to be to harsh because I love your enthusiasm although figure out what your enthused about other than just a dog.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:02 pm

Winchey wrote:"Guess I just think of herding dogs only in black and white. "

Are you saying you like border collies?

I have a black tri Aussie, but really admire Border collies and those who work them. That was the first breed I was around as working dogs when I was a kid. I don't like black dogs, but that is the only thing that looks right to me herding.

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:04 pm

Chris, I know exactly what I want in a birddog. I'm as green as a ghord when it comes to trials, but what do you expect when someone has never ran trials before? I ask tons of questions and post tons of messages on boards because I love birddogs and all that that entails. Last time you brought up trying to reinvent the wheel I gave an example that I'm not trying to reinvent anything, just have a certain way I like to do it... like I said before, it's my "brand". Maybe you're a Firestone and I'm a Goodyear. I have a method to doing things same as you do. Not saying it's totaly original, but it's how I do it. I don't see what the big deal is about that?

I appreciate that you like my enthusiasm and it's pretty doggoned obvious that you're no slacker in the enthusiasm department yourself, but I don't see what I've said that would make someone think I'm making things so complicated. I believe in keeping my hands off a dog except when it comes to putting a solid recall on them, which I absolutely require. This whole clicker training to retrieve thing is brand new to me. I've got a pup that doesn't show any interest in retrieving and I've always wanted to give it a try, just for the fun of it. Not advocating it or saying it's the only way to go, but how in the world are we supposed to learn or get better if we don't try new things?

As far as finding what I want to do, well, that's what I'm doing. It would be flat ignorant to go with AF because I ran a few trials, liked it and everyone told me what a gyp all the other venues was. I plan on running everything: AF, AKC trials and tests, NSTRA and, heck, maybe even NAVHDA (probably not, but maybe). My talking a couple months ago about championships was plain ignorance. That was it, plain and simple. But, now I know. When everyone was jumping my case over it Jim Michaletz spoke up and said something to the effect that I need some advice rather than criticism. Everyone shut their mouth after that.

And you'll see me post on here about all the different dogs and lines out there. Elhew, Fiddler, Miller, Go Boy, Attitude, Guard Rail. Not just in Pointers, though. I'll post about Last Bullett, Rawhide's Clown, Heidi's Mighty City Slicker and so on. I enjoy studying birddogs like I was studying biology or english or philosophy. It's an interesting subject. I don't see a thing wrong with it, although asking alot of questions give me the image of being an eternal amateur and novice and as long as I keep asking questions people will think I have no answers, but that's fine. I've been training dogs for almost 15 years, birddogs for about 10, trained in a huge number of dog sports and hung out with some pretty big names. I've owned two small dog training businesses (not birddogs) and helped run a rescue. If people want to think that I'm scatter-brained, all over the place or just plain stupid, that's fine. I like finding out as much as I can and enjoy becoming more enlightened about dogs as much as I enjoy working with them.

It's hard to convey emotion through text, but I'm not upset or angry in any way. It gets to me a little that people will keep after me, thinking I don't know anything, but in the end there's a thousand roads to Graceland. You can take your's, I'll take mine and a hundred others will take thier own, but we'll all get there in the end. Why don't we just enjoy each other's company and realize that this isn't a battle field, but a common ground?

Post by **topher40** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:12 pm

"I've always wanted to give it a try, just for the fun of it."

Just trying something is the fastest way to put training backwards. Finding a tried and true method that has and will work while applying that method to your way of doing things is SOOOOO much easier. If you want to break that dog for retrieving, pointing, holding, handle or whatever come on up here and spend a few days. I can put you on a horse and we can get that dog of yours to where you want real quick and provide a hands off road map for the future. I dont beat my dog but I am not afraid of being hands on either.

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:22 pm

Thanks, Chris, I appreciate the offer, but I just don't think I could do it. I've got to pinch my pennies to get the pickup fixed. That tranny is gonna cost me over a thousand bucks to fix. I prayed on it, but God hasn't left any check under my pillow yet, so I don't see it happening.

On trying things new, if you've got a firm grasp on how dogs think then you should be able to handle training a dog for anything. Dog training is the same book across the board, but training for agility, obedience, birddogs, protection dogs are just the different chapters. I think you and I maybe just read that same book in a different way.

Post by **Sharon** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:32 pm

Trekmoor wrote:I don't usually C.T. dogs if I don't feel it would be the easiest way but I have used a clicker just about often enough to have some idea of how well it can work . Starting in the way you say you did had me wondering why ? If you were trying to "prime the clicker" with the hotdogs why did you think it was good to have the dog run towards you when you clicked ? You , at that stage, should only want the dog to associate the click with food , not with running towards you.

Your dog seemed wary of the click at close quarters ? Then why not click when the dog is several feet , or yards away, then toss the treat anywhere near the dog where it can see it on the floor or on the ground ? It wouldn't take the average dog long to stop having any worries about the click and it would still get the food reward. When clicker training it is very rare for me to give the dog the treat from my hand, it is normally tossed onto the floor for the click has already "marked" the correct behaviour by the dog. Should a dog drop a retrieve at a later stage in training because it has heard the click and expects the treat this does not matter much either. The dog has already performed the correct action in going out for, picking up and returning to you with the retrieve.
From there you simply cease to click for that last action and leave it to "free-shaping" which will have the dog teach itself that it now has to first touch your hand and then - finally place the dummy into your hand before it will hear the click it so much wants to hear . It is likely that the dog will try various behaviours to hear that click when free-shaping. It may drop the dummy,(no click) it may move in closer to you while holding the dummy (click) it may just touch your hand (click) it may push the dummy right into your hand (click) and give a jackpot size reward !

Bill T.

an excellent post

Post by **Sharon** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:37 pm

topher40 wrote:
Stoneface wrote:I think people all over make dog training way too complicated. It's just human nature. quote]

It also seems to be your nature to Rowdy. Why would you keep trying to re-invent the wheel that has served as such a good tool for millions of other dogs? You posted the other day something about having a new way to break dogs, good flying birds..... let the dog do its own learning..... but havent really done anything to prove, as you put it a theory. FF ing is not hard to painful for the dog if done correctly. Nothing more painful than a e- collar that you mention using. I have broke plenty of dogs of my own and of others using tried and true methods. I would suggest finding one that works then seeing how you would like to tweek (but not re-invent) to suit your needs. Also try find out what exactly you want out of your dogs, yourself as a trainer and the aforementioned methods that will suit you. A couple of months ago you were talking about running championships with your moxie dog, now your leaning towards NSTRA, but you still are curious about fiddler and Go Boy breeding. Look around, figure out what you want, then start something you can finish. Not trying to be to harsh because I love your enthusiasm although figure out what your enthused about other than just a dog.

+1
I'm continuing to get my direction from the guys/gals who are winning the State Championships etc. .The proof is in the pudding.

4dabirds · Post by **4dabirds** » Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:45 pm

It seems to me some things have been left out of this conversation. First of all doesn't your dog puke up the hot dogs when you give them to him hot. As for clicker training for retrieve , it is no different then training for any other behavior . Being that you are asking others opinion of your idea you seem to have a shred of doubt about it. You are creating a behavior chain. Of course you can train a retrieve using clicker training the question here is a matter of motivation. What motivates the dog to perform a behavior ? Prey drive was mentioned but I believe this is only part of the equation . I do not believe that prey drive is very important in training the retrieve but it will be important as a motivator once the dog is in a situation where you are expecting the dog to perform under adverse conditions such as a cold water retrieve. Food is the motivator that you will be working with while training for the retrieve and this can be manipulated simply by not feeding the dog for a day or two. The hungrier the dog is the harder and faster it will work to offer behaviors to get the reward. The place where this intersects is in the hunting field at this time the motivation for birds should be much greater then for food and the dog should care less for the treat. So if the dog is highly motivated for birds the bird is the reward, and will be, if your training reflects this. The problems arise when the dog balks on a retrieve you will have no mechanism to force the dog to perform. Since dogs are motivated to please themselves this leaves you with maybe spending a lot of time training a behavior that for all intents and purposes is to conserve game under adverse conditions, and may not accomplish your goal. What if the dog decides to keep the bird because having the bird is a greater motivator than the treat. What if the dog mouths the bird how will you correct this? the dog has the bird. Do you think it would rather perform for a treat at this time? Operant conditioning is the best way to train a behavior but without avoidance training there is no way to guarantee full compliance. If you want to as you say reinforce with the e-collar will you just reinforce the full behavior when the dog has not been reinforced on every part of the behavior chain. I think this will lead to confusion and apprehension in the dog. If you plan to reinforce each segment of the chain why not just do a traditional force retrieve . Also you seem to be a little off track with your application of the clicker, which I think will only confuse your dog. The clicker is in no way the treat. The clicker in no way should be associated with the treat. Preloading the dog should only teach the dog that after it hears the click a treat is coming. Once preloading is done the click should only come after a wanted behavior is achieved by the dog. Dogs learn by association and the association here should only be the click with the behavior. The treat is the reward and represents something entirely different to the dog. Dogs thrive on consistency if you are clicking at any time other then after a wanted behavior it will confuse the dog. The click is a marker and only a marker for the exact moment the behavior you want is exhibited. The treat can be in any form that will motivate the dog to continue offering behaviors, such as food , a pat on the head, a good boy etc. The greater the motivation the better the training session. food will be useless if the dog is not hungry. A dogs ability to stay in the moment is just not there . Their brains are on to the next thought within three seconds of exhibiting a behavior. The clicker marks the exact moment it displays a behavior and allows the dog to pause in thought about why it is about to get treated. This momentary pause helps to plant in the dogs brain the behaviors that are rewardable .This is why clicker training is so effective and gives the dog far greater retention of trained behaviors. The click should always come at the exact moment of the behavior , the treat, although best given early, can still have an effect on the dog if given within a half an hour. Good luck with your experiment I hope it works out for you just don't sell force retrieve training so shor,t you may need it in the future! The good news is that the clicker training will help your dog to understand the steps a little better if you have to go that route.

Post by **Sharon** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 11:41 am

Well said . Just like being back in Psych.20 Thanks.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 2:57 pm

From reading this post and all the others... you obviously have not force fetched a dog let alone 5. You should not do OT to your current dog because you think that you need to do it because she is not a reliable retriever... yet in another thread you video the dog playing fetch and commented about how she was fetching. You remind me of someone who has not trained a dog, worked with any dogs, buys a dog that's partially trained and claim OT was all your doing.

How about you go talk with someone experienced and learn how to do things before you start to do the wrong thing. Maybe research past posts before you start new ones and see if your question has already been answered and/or don't post because it caused problems and had to be deleted.

Seems like there are a lot of knowledgeable pointer guys in your region. As for personal lessons and get your feet on the ground and exercise with your dog. You can't learn everything by reading stories about great dogs and expect to be able to produce the same. Get your hands dirty and do something.

snips · Post by **snips** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:35 pm

Stoneface, are u any relation to Crazydog?

glk7243 · Post by **glk7243** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:40 pm

snips wrote:Stoneface, are u any relation to Crazydog?

Now that's funny

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:49 pm

ultracarry, the dog in the video is Moxy, my Pointer. The dog I'm clicker training is Cinna, a Setter.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:56 pm

SORRY...

all the other things still apply.

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Sat Dec 31, 2011 8:55 am

Rowdy I guess my first thought is why fool with a soft dog? There are so many other nice dogs in the world that you really don't have to fool with one that has a major hole in it like that one. Not that any dog is bullet proof but that is a pretty major challenge to deal with right up front.

4dabirds · Post by **4dabirds** » Sat Dec 31, 2011 8:05 pm

bigsugar wrote:Rowdy I guess my first thought is why fool with a soft dog? There are so many other nice dogs in the world that you really don't have to fool with one that has a major hole in it like that one. Not that any dog is bullet proof but that is a pretty major challenge to deal with right up front.

?

h&t · Post by **h&t** » Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:29 am

yep, good one. thanks for typing

4dabirds wrote:It seems to me some things have been left out of this conversation. First of all doesn't your dog puke up the hot dogs when you give them to him hot. As for clicker training for retrieve , it is no different then training for any other behavior . Being that you are asking others opinion of your idea you seem to have a shred of doubt about it. You are creating a behavior chain. Of course you can train a retrieve using clicker training the question here is a matter of motivation. What motivates the dog to perform a behavior ? Prey drive was mentioned but I believe this is only part of the equation . I do not believe that prey drive is very important in training the retrieve but it will be important as a motivator once the dog is in a situation where you are expecting the dog to perform under adverse conditions such as a cold water retrieve. Food is the motivator that you will be working with while training for the retrieve and this can be manipulated simply by not feeding the dog for a day or two. The hungrier the dog is the harder and faster it will work to offer behaviors to get the reward. The place where this intersects is in the hunting field at this time the motivation for birds should be much greater then for food and the dog should care less for the treat. So if the dog is highly motivated for birds the bird is the reward, and will be, if your training reflects this. The problems arise when the dog balks on a retrieve you will have no mechanism to force the dog to perform. Since dogs are motivated to please themselves this leaves you with maybe spending a lot of time training a behavior that for all intents and purposes is to conserve game under adverse conditions, and may not accomplish your goal. What if the dog decides to keep the bird because having the bird is a greater motivator than the treat. What if the dog mouths the bird how will you correct this? the dog has the bird. Do you think it would rather perform for a treat at this time? Operant conditioning is the best way to train a behavior but without avoidance training there is no way to guarantee full compliance. If you want to as you say reinforce with the e-collar will you just reinforce the full behavior when the dog has not been reinforced on every part of the behavior chain. I think this will lead to confusion and apprehension in the dog. If you plan to reinforce each segment of the chain why not just do a traditional force retrieve . Also you seem to be a little off track with your application of the clicker, which I think will only confuse your dog. The clicker is in no way the treat. The clicker in no way should be associated with the treat. Preloading the dog should only teach the dog that after it hears the click a treat is coming. Once preloading is done the click should only come after a wanted behavior is achieved by the dog. Dogs learn by association and the association here should only be the click with the behavior. The treat is the reward and represents something entirely different to the dog. Dogs thrive on consistency if you are clicking at any time other then after a wanted behavior it will confuse the dog. The click is a marker and only a marker for the exact moment the behavior you want is exhibited. The treat can be in any form that will motivate the dog to continue offering behaviors, such as food , a pat on the head, a good boy etc. The greater the motivation the better the training session. food will be useless if the dog is not hungry. A dogs ability to stay in the moment is just not there . Their brains are on to the next thought within three seconds of exhibiting a behavior. The clicker marks the exact moment it displays a behavior and allows the dog to pause in thought about why it is about to get treated. This momentary pause helps to plant in the dogs brain the behaviors that are rewardable .This is why clicker training is so effective and gives the dog far greater retention of trained behaviors. The click should always come at the exact moment of the behavior , the treat, although best given early, can still have an effect on the dog if given within a half an hour. Good luck with your experiment I hope it works out for you just don't sell force retrieve training so shor,t you may need it in the future! The good news is that the clicker training will help your dog to understand the steps a little better if you have to go that route.

AzDoggin · Post by **AzDoggin** » Sun Jan 01, 2012 8:32 am

4dabirds wrote:Operant conditioning is the best way to train a behavior but without avoidance training there is no way to guarantee full compliance.

Agree for the most part, it takes the carrot and the stick. I like the way George Hickox explains it: we teach the behavior through operant conditioning, and achieve excellence by following up with the e-collar.

Just a technicality, but you also stated: "The clicker is in no way the treat. The clicker in no way should be associated with the treat." Not sure what you are meaning here, but what happens is that by pairing the clicker with the treat repeatedly over time initially, the clicker becomes a "conditioned reinforcer," so yes, in addition to being a cue to mark the moment, the clicker takes on reinforcing values. Over time, as the treats are phased into an intermittent (random) schedule, the clicker has major reinforcing value. Just watch a dog who has been clicker trained. Pick up a clicker and click it a year or two later and see how he gets excited and starts running through his repertoire of behaviors, trying to remember what made that dang treat appear. We have a dog that was clicker trained as a pup. Ten years later, if he hears a click - he goes into a perfect sit. After a few minutes, he starts looking around, as if to say "where's that dadgum treat?" It's hilarious.

4dabirds · Post by **4dabirds** » Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:15 am

what I mean by this is that the click is there only to mark the behavior. If the dog is exposed to the click when it is not offering a behavior the click becomes less significant to the dog as it relates to its ability to mark the behavior. In your example the dog responded to the click by offering the behavior because it was conditioned to do so. Dogs learn by association so the dog associates the sound of the click with the training session . When a dog is properly clicker trained it will offer behaviors as opposed to only exhibiting them when being compelled. I believe the clicker is a positive marker the treat is the positive reinforcer . The word No is the negative marker and the correction the negative reinforcer. Without the treat or the correction the markers will have no influence whatsoever.

AzDoggin · Post by **AzDoggin** » Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:58 am

4dabirds wrote:what I mean by this is that the click is there only to mark the behavior. If the dog is exposed to the click when it is not offering a behavior the click becomes less significant to the dog as it relates to its ability to mark the behavior. In your example the dog responded to the click by offering the behavior because it was conditioned to do so. Dogs learn by association so the dog associates the sound of the click with the training session . When a dog is properly clicker trained it will offer behaviors as opposed to only exhibiting them when being compelled. I believe the clicker is a positive marker the treat is the positive reinforcer . The word No is the negative marker and the correction the negative reinforcer. Without the treat or the correction the markers will have no influence whatsoever.

We are just using different terminology - happens with "behavior geeks." Completely agree that the benefit of teaching with these tools is that you get a happy dog who willingly initiates the behavior. The nice thing about these methods is that you can start at 8 weeks. Pups are a blast to clicker train, and they are learning how much fun it is to work and learn. Not too bad a way to start life.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Sun Jan 01, 2012 5:46 pm

Not worth disagreeing about. The initial comment should have been " have fun". Well that's as soon as you read who posted the question. Poor dogs....

AzDoggin · Post by **AzDoggin** » Sat Jan 07, 2012 7:35 pm

Stoneface, don't know whether you are a NAVDHA member, but if you are check out the article on pages 22-23 in the January 2012 edition of Versatile Hunting Dog - the NAVHDA magazine. The article is titled "Training a Reliable Retrieve" and the topic is starting a young pup retrieving with clicker train at about 3 months. The author worked on clicker training the components of the chain: fetch, hold, drop until pup was reliable over a period of two months. At that point, the dog was nearly perfect, and the author completed the compulsive aspect in 2-3 days to finish the dog. Didn't take much force since the dog already knew and enjoyed performing the behavior - the force aspect was just to achieve excellence and reliability.

This method differs of course from conventional training thought, and therefore will never be widely accepted. For a variety of reasons, humans tend to stick with what they know and resist change. All that notwithstanding, it's pretty hard for me to see the disadvantage (other than time spent with your pup) of starting the retriever training with positive methods.

The author referenced a book "The Clicked Retreiver" by Lana Mitchell, but then obviously used a hybrid of clicker and complusive methods in the end.

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Sat Jan 07, 2012 7:44 pm

Thanks for the heads-up, AZ. I'm not a member, but I may have to look into that book. I'm not too crazy about different ways to train fetch. Most dogs do just fine if they are just conditioned. Maybe not going to win a retriever trial or anything, but good enough. Just doing this for the fun of it.

Just FYI, Cinna is doing really well with her training. I had her taking the bumper into her mouth while I held it, but she was mouthing and I don't want to put too much of myself into the training so I started putting the bumper on the ground, in the middle of the room, and she's picking it up and holding it for a few seconds. That's as far as we've gotten so far and she's slow to come around, but I'm going to fix up a makeshift training table and I bet she comes out just fine.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Sat Jan 07, 2012 8:08 pm

Why? Why clicker train when force fetch has worked for so many for so long? I hear this a lot. I am not an anti FF, or a positive ONLY trainer. I actually did much the same thing the NAVHDA article describes with my hardmouth dog and it worked well. And YES the ecollar is used to reinforce the learned behavior. The answer is not because FF is cruel. Or becuase marker training is faster or easier... (edit: so far I think it's longer for the correct retrieve, actually... )
The answer to the question above is because negative reinforcement with force cause the dog to want to "stick" to what works, and avoid new things. It does give a high level of control but might slow discovery type learning. Using marker training encourages the dog to try new things. Once they are trying new things the are more confident, and it shows. But yes sometimes they try the wrong things. Crossing over with the same dog from one to the other is the hardest because the dog does not want to try anything new. Will wait you out for a LONG time, stickin to a "safe" behavior.

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Sat Jan 07, 2012 9:00 pm

I left this thread along several posts back, but figured since AZ addressed me directly I'd answer him. I don't want to restart this arguement - it's such a stupid thing to argue over - but I'll go ahead and post one reply.

I like to train dogs, learn new techniques and experiment. It's not going to hurt her to do a little clicker training and, heck, something could come of it. So far the idea's not blowing me away, but if we keep on this track I imagine she'll be retrieving just fine when all's said and done.

I don't like force fetching. I think it puts unecessary pressure on the dog. A Pointer is a Pointer. If I wanted a retriever I'd buy a Lab or Golden. I'm tickled to death if my Pointer naturally retrieves to hand, but I'm ten times more concerned about them finding the downed bird. If I was that concerned about it, I'd force fetch them.