Whoa Breaking Method?

goldenpatch29 · Post by **goldenpatch29** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 7:12 pm

Can anyone please give me any information on Whoa breaking with using a collar around the flank and a collar around the front and use a tree limb or pulley system to pull the dog off the ground when Whoaing! Any comments negative or positive on the matter would be great.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 8:41 pm

I remember reading a piece describing that technique several years ago. I do not know anyone who does it that way.

My first reaction was that it seemed unnecessarily complicated. Never followed up on it and never used that method myself.

RayG

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 8:58 pm

I've used that method for a dog that sits on whoa. That is the only time it makes the training process easier. Other than that, a regular whoa post works fine, or teach it from heel.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:26 pm

Wow, your over thinking this. When you tell a dog "whoa" all you want it to do is stop and stand still. If the dogs sits, your applying to much pressure and it's confused. Sit is a safe position. Had a guy bring me a dog years ago that he had sitting every time he told it "whoa". Took her out and told her whoa, she sat down and I picked her back up buy pulling her toward me gently. Soon as her butt left the ground I let the cc go slack and told her whoa again. Took maybe five minutes to get it across to her. She was just getting to much pressure and didn't really understand the command.

I have never used the flank collar, won't ever use it. The whoa post ala Delmar Smith works great. I also don't pick dog's up with ropes around them. I have had dogs hit birds to low, close to down. Walk up next to them and slide your toe under their belly and lift gently, they'll come right up.

I think most people have trouble because they over think the whole thing. The dog is not your advesary, it's just your dog, help it.

I'm trying to remember the guy that taught dogs to whoa by hangiong them on a tree limb with a rope, right on the tip of my toung. He was the Smith's trainer. His wife left him and is running Red Setter's now. Both are well known.

ST8 UPPOINTERS · Post by **ST8 UPPOINTERS** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:53 pm

Huntsmith method is as good as it gets for whoa breaking.. They use the delmar smith way.

goldenpatch29 · Post by **goldenpatch29** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:37 am

Thanks to everyone for all the comments. I havent used the foremetioned method yet. I had just heard about it and wondered how it was percieved by everyone else. I think that maybe everyone is hinting around that I should use the Delmar Smith method instead...hahaha.......again thanks to everyone for helping me out.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:04 pm

Goldenpatch -

There are a ton of different ways to get a dog to stop and stand. Most do not require that amount of equipment or preparation. Most work just fine for most dogs.

I think the real key item in the agenda is not which method you utilize, but rather when you start the steadying process in earnest. If a youngster is not "ready" to be steadied, you are asking for all kinds of trouble, regardless of the method because the dog will either not understand(at some level) what you want it to do or not be mentally ready to accept the level of discipline necessary to assure reliable compliance.

The question then becomes:

1) How does one go about putting the tools in place and preparing a youngster for the process of steadying to wing (and shot)

and then...

2)"How does one know when their dog is ready to be steadied?"

RayG

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:08 pm

Huntsmith as I understand it, use's a modified Delmar Smith method. Delmar did not use an e-collar around the waist. I use the origional Delmar method with just a couple small changes. I've done away with the pinch collar.

goldenpatch29 · Post by **goldenpatch29** » Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:11 pm

RayGubernat wrote:Goldenpatch -

There are a ton of different ways to get a dog to stop and stand. Most do not require that amount of equipment or preparation. Most work just fine for most dogs.

I think the real key item in the agenda is not which method you utilize, but rather when you start the steadying process in earnest. If a youngster is not "ready" to be steadied, you are asking for all kinds of trouble, regardless of the method because the dog will either not understand(at some level) what you want it to do or not be mentally ready to accept the level of discipline necessary to assure reliable compliance.

The question then becomes:

1) How does one go about putting the tools in place and preparing a youngster for the process of steadying to wing (and shot)

and then...

2)"How does one know when their dog is ready to be steadied?"

RayG

My pup is right at five months old, but IMO he acts even younger than that. He has a lot of prey drive but he has twice as much energy to go with it and doesnt want to stand or sit still for anything. So, with that being said, and considering your number 2 question, do you think that he might be a lil young to start this yet?

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:22 pm

Too young yet, time for independence building , fun bumpers, increasingly longer walks, ripping a few birds (keyword few) ......

Revisit this conversation at 8 months.....without the midevil contraptions

Start building a pigeon flock or locate sources for
pigeons and quail or chukar, would be what i would do....

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:35 pm

Yep, he is too young and when you do start with the formal training, my advise would be to not make it any more complicated than it needs to be.

Charlie

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:41 pm

goldenpatch29 wrote:
RayGubernat wrote:Goldenpatch -

There are a ton of different ways to get a dog to stop and stand. Most do not require that amount of equipment or preparation. Most work just fine for most dogs.

I think the real key item in the agenda is not which method you utilize, but rather when you start the steadying process in earnest. If a youngster is not "ready" to be steadied, you are asking for all kinds of trouble, regardless of the method because the dog will either not understand(at some level) what you want it to do or not be mentally ready to accept the level of discipline necessary to assure reliable compliance.

The question then becomes:

1) How does one go about putting the tools in place and preparing a youngster for the process of steadying to wing (and shot)

and then...

2)"How does one know when their dog is ready to be steadied?"

RayG

My pup is right at five months old, but IMO he acts even younger than that. He has a lot of prey drive but he has twice as much energy to go with it and doesnt want to stand or sit still for anything. So, with that being said, and considering your number 2 question, do you think that he might be a lil young to start this yet?

Yup -

Too young for anything that resembles serious field training, IMHO.

However, I see no reason why you cannot continue to have a good time with your puppy(and yes it IS a puppy) in the field while...AT THE SAME TIME... beginning to do some fairly serious yardwork. I am a HUGE believer in laying a foundation in the yard. You CAN have fun with your dog and do good yardwork at the same time. At this age, just about everything should be fun for the dog.

Let me say, once again, that there are many ways to get a dog steady and a whole lot of how you proceed depends on what kind of situation you find yourself in as far as training grounds and birds and what type of temperament the dog has. What works for me or the next fellow and my dogs or theirs might not be the best choice for you and yours.

That said, a five month old pup is certainly ready for yardwork obedience training as long as it is done in fairly short sessions and the lessons are incremented in baby steps.

I "encourage" my youngsters to stop and stand by doing heel/whoa drills in the yard, using a pigging string. Most use a wonder lead but I am a cheapskate. Short, two minute to three minute sessions morning and evening will get the dog paying attention to you... staying with you when you move and stopping when you stop. Over a couple of months this stopping and standing can be "extended" to where you are dropping the lead and walking out in front of the dog.

If one were to pursue such a "double track", doing yardwork and at the same time, running the dog in the field,occasionally on birds, I would expect the genes to eventually kick in and the youngster would do things like start hesitating before busting in, like stopping and watching the bird fly away after a short chase.

BTW, those are some of the kinds of things I look for when I am trying to decide if the dog is "ready". ui have pointers, and fairly well bred ones, so they are ready for the breaking processat a fairly young age. Most dogs are not anywhere near ready, mentally, for the pressure of steadying at the sane age as a field bred pointer. Conventional wisdom is that a dog should be ready to be steadied somewhere between 12 and 18 months of age, but some dogs and some breeds mature much slower. As I stated earlier, rushing the process will only create a whole bunch of new problems for the trainer.

Remember always that dogs are "place learners". Just becasue the dog does something in the yard does not mean the dog will automatically transfer that behavior to the field. The lesson has to be "re-taught" and "re-introduced" in multiple situations before the dog understands that it must behave in this certain manner regardless of where it is. The good new is that once the dog learns it in the yard, it "re-learns" it somewhere else quite a bit faster.

The conventional wisdom is that if a dog learns to do something in three different places and scenarios, it pretty much has a grasp of the concept and can be expected to perform in different situations.

You need to come up with a training method that makes sense to you and you need to develop a plan. A pro once gave me this simple advice: "Plan your work and then go out and work your plan."

Every single time you go out to do something with your youngster you should stop and think:
"What, exactly , do I want to do today?"

Then, once you have decided exactly what you want to accomplish, the next thoughts should be:

"Exactly how am I going to go about doing it?"
"What do I need in the way of equipment?"
"What can go wrong and how do I handle it?"

and last, but by no means least...

"When am I done?"

I know I have given you a lot to chew on and I apologize for that.

But if I got you to thinking about the how, the why and not the when....

Go have fun with your youngster. Puppies are the bomb.

RayG

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:51 pm

birddogger wrote:Yep, he is too young and when you do start with the formal training, my advise would be to not make it any more complicated than it needs to be.

Charlie

That there is some sage advice.

goldenpatch29 · Post by **goldenpatch29** » Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:15 pm

thanks RayG and everyone else that has taken the time to give me advice on my situtation. I for sure have my hands full with this lil Hellion...haha. but I love him just the same and I think he is going to a good dog!
Along with a plan, I think I might also need to find some patience with him. I set birds out for him last week.
He found all five quail, pointed and then bumped all in about 40 minutes the other day. All were singles and were set in rough cover and far apart.
So, I think he has the stuff. he just needs some guidance, and i hope I can give him the right kind!

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:35 pm

Thats the perfect thing for a pup that age to do, in my book, have fun and locate and bump and chase a few birds.....

Build that love for birds.....don't feel the need to do that alot but thats the right course right now, do a little gentle yard work maybe bump and chase again and in spring/early summer you will be ready to get to work.

Christopher · Post by **Christopher** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:22 pm

DonF wrote:Wow, your over thinking this. When you tell a dog "whoa" all you want it to do is stop and stand still. If the dogs sits, your applying to much pressure and it's confused. Sit is a safe position. Had a guy bring me a dog years ago that he had sitting every time he told it "whoa". Took her out and told her whoa, she sat down and I picked her back up buy pulling her toward me gently. Soon as her butt left the ground I let the cc go slack and told her whoa again. Took maybe five minutes to get it across to her. She was just getting to much pressure and didn't really understand the command.

I have never used the flank collar, won't ever use it. The whoa post ala Delmar Smith works great. I also don't pick dog's up with ropes around them. I have had dogs hit birds to low, close to down. Walk up next to them and slide your toe under their belly and lift gently, they'll come right up.

I think most people have trouble because they over think the whole thing. The dog is not your advesary, it's just your dog, help it.

I'm trying to remember the guy that taught dogs to whoa by hangiong them on a tree limb with a rope, right on the tip of my toung. He was the Smith's trainer. His wife left him and is running Red Setter's now. Both are well known.

Don, You showed me how to do this just like you wrote above with my Rudy, the Delmar method worked like a charm. In a few weeks he started whoaing without the post, then without the cc. Trouble is, I have not been real consistent with using whoa lately, so, he is bit rusty. It takes a reminder or two but he picks it right back up.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:36 pm

Rudy is a good dog that is only gonna get better.

How old is the OP's dog? Can't find it anywhere. Never mind, five months. Way to soon. Another three to five months he'll probably be ready.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:45 pm

"I'm trying to remember the guy that taught dogs to whoa by hangiong them on a tree limb with a rope, right on the tip of my toung. He was the Smith's trainer. His wife left him and is running Red Setter's now. Both are well known".

Harold Ray?

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:55 am

Winchey wrote:"I'm trying to remember the guy that taught dogs to whoa by hangiong them on a tree limb with a rope, right on the tip of my toung. He was the Smith's trainer. His wife left him and is running Red Setter's now. Both are well known".

Harold Ray?

Winchey, you don't "hang them on a tree limb". The rope is tied to the limb, or maybe a the top of a steel post. It simple puts upward pressure on the dog's rear end with a flank collar, rather than downward pressure. It is very effective for dog's that sit on whoa. Easier on the trainer.

goldenpatch29 · Post by **goldenpatch29** » Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:26 am

Just wanted to give a update on the whoa progress of my lil guy......I dont know if anyone has noticed but I have a new avatar. That pic is of him(Zack), holding on two birds after he pointed them and recieved the whoa command....He scented the birds and stopped on a dime and I gentley told him to whoa and he stood perfectly still. In fact, he stood still long enough for me to take 10 pics with the camera from different angles, and stayed that way until I went in and flushed both birds up. He had bumped four birds earlier and then this time it was just like someone just flipped a light switch on. Ended the day with a huge smile on my face....

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:34 am

gonehuntin' wrote:
Winchey wrote:"I'm trying to remember the guy that taught dogs to whoa by hangiong them on a tree limb with a rope, right on the tip of my toung. He was the Smith's trainer. His wife left him and is running Red Setter's now. Both are well known".

Harold Ray?
Winchey, you don't "hang them on a tree limb". The rope is tied to the limb, or maybe a the top of a steel post. It simple puts upward pressure on the dog's rear end with a flank collar, rather than downward pressure. It is very effective for dog's that sit on whoa. Easier on the trainer.

Notice the quotation marks, the quote is from Don F, I was just wondering if Harold Ray was the guy on the tip of his tongue.

Post by **Sharon** » Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:26 am

goldenpatch29 wrote:Just wanted to give a update on the whoa progress of my lil guy......I dont know if anyone has noticed but I have a new avatar. That pic is of him(Zack), holding on two birds after he pointed them and recieved the whoa command....He scented the birds and stopped on a dime and I gentley told him to whoa and he stood perfectly still. In fact, he stood still long enough for me to take 10 pics with the camera from different angles, and stayed that way until I went in and flushed both birds up. He had bumped four birds earlier and then this time it was just like someone just flipped a light switch on. Ended the day with a huge smile on my face....

I'm sorry but you are hooked.

Congrats.

jgregg · Post by **jgregg** » Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:26 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:I've used that method for a dog that sits on whoa. That is the only time it makes the training process easier. Other than that, a regular whoa post works fine, or teach it from heel.

+1

I got my pup 3 months ago at 8 weeks old. It's my first pup and I started Whoa-ing him two weeks ago. I can stop him at about 10 yards right now. Trained him using the whoa from heel like described in the Perfect start Perfect finish training videos and he caught on right away. Learned what it meant within the first 5 minutes or so. Anyhow just some encouragement that it sure works!

goldenpatch29 · Post by **goldenpatch29** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:38 am

Sharon wrote:
goldenpatch29 wrote:Just wanted to give a update on the whoa progress of my lil guy......I dont know if anyone has noticed but I have a new avatar. That pic is of him(Zack), holding on two birds after he pointed them and recieved the whoa command....He scented the birds and stopped on a dime and I gentley told him to whoa and he stood perfectly still. In fact, he stood still long enough for me to take 10 pics with the camera from different angles, and stayed that way until I went in and flushed both birds up. He had bumped four birds earlier and then this time it was just like someone just flipped a light switch on. Ended the day with a huge smile on my face....

I'm sorry but you are hooked. Congrats.

YES...There couldnt be a statement that is closer too the truth!

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