hey, I have a 13 month old female lab that came back from training on october 1st of 2011 (from 6 till 10 months of age). It's a really long story which I have already written out in case anyone wants to know, but basically she went to a well established facility and was put with a summer intern (who was only to be there for 2 months, and was also unsupervised while he was there - the head trainer went up north for the summer to work the senior and master level dogs). Essentially, she went from a dog with very high retrieving drive to a dog that will no longer pick up birds or bumpers. I was told that the summer intern that trained my dog made the mistake of hitting her pretty hard with the e-colar when she would got out to get something in order to get her to come back when he called her, and she of course would spit out the bird or bumper (you should also note that he was just doing this because he needed the college credit - he wants to be a park ranger, not retriever trainer). He did this for the first 2 months - I'm surprised she picked up birds for 2 months with that type of reward. For the sake of keeping this post short I will leave out a lot of the details, but feel free to ask whatever you need to to help in getting the right perspective on this situation.
I basically need to know if there is anything at all I can do to rehab this dog. It has been really tough so far. I put all the money I had into training her, so I don't really have anymore to spend on her. I guess just let me know if you guys have come across anything similar to this, and/or if you know of anything that might work to get her back. Any good advice would be very, very appreciated.
retriever rehabilitation from bad training experience
Re: retriever rehabilitation from bad training experience
Need more details on the trainer and training (without throwing him or her under the bus). Also should tell you that no "hunt test" pros I know of "go up north to work the senior and master level dogs" - that's a field trial thing for retrievers that are exponentially more advanced than HT levels and are being campaigned in trials that move up and down the East coast during spring, early summer and fall. Nor would any respected or even half-*ssed legitimate retriever pro leave a dog with a "summer intern" for its training - unless they weren't looking to stay in business but for say about 30 minutes after a client got such a "trained" dog back from them.
And what were your expectations when you sent the dog away? Is the "FC" in your handle to do with field champion ambitions or stand for something else?
Rehabbing is just a matter of restoring enthusiasm to retrieve - can be a project or can be as simple as winning back your dog's trust, with or without use of the e-collar.
MG
And what were your expectations when you sent the dog away? Is the "FC" in your handle to do with field champion ambitions or stand for something else?
Rehabbing is just a matter of restoring enthusiasm to retrieve - can be a project or can be as simple as winning back your dog's trust, with or without use of the e-collar.
MG
Re: retriever rehabilitation from bad training experience
I agree. It sounds like you have it with the e-collar. To change it I'd spend a lot of time petting it. Have to re-gain all it's trust. Saqd sad story!crackerd wrote:Need more details on the trainer and training (without throwing him or her under the bus). Also should tell you that no "hunt test" pros I know of "go up north to work the senior and master level dogs" - that's a field trial thing for retrievers that are exponentially more advanced than HT levels and are being campaigned in trials that move up and down the East coast during spring, early summer and fall. Nor would any respected or even half-*ssed legitimate retriever pro leave a dog with a "summer intern" for its training - unless they weren't looking to stay in business but for say about 30 minutes after a client got such a "trained" dog back from them.
And what were your expectations when you sent the dog away? Is the "FC" in your handle to do with field champion ambitions or stand for something else?
Rehabbing is just a matter of restoring enthusiasm to retrieve - can be a project or can be as simple as winning back your dog's trust, with or without use of the e-collar.
MG
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!
Re: retriever rehabilitation from bad training experience
Don't use the same kind of bumpers as the trainer used. Think of something new.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett
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ArcticRetrievers
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Re: retriever rehabilitation from bad training experience
I agree, more details would be helpful. Build her trust in you. Leave out the retrieving right now, just get her enjoying every second she's with you. She most definitely knows what a collar is, and what it does so it looks like you'll need to train "old school" before collars. And there are some great books for that. Just build that confidence for now, and you'll be on the right track
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Ruffshooter
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Re: retriever rehabilitation from bad training experience
What is the trainer willing to do to correct this? Sounds like he knew it was a screw up on his end, letting an apprentice work unsupervised.
If he is worth his salt then he should make good. IMO
As all have said build her back up and trusting you.
The dog still has its natural desire, just need to find ways to build it back up.
A good book I like is Retriever Training: Back to Basic:s by Robert Milner. Pretty good and simple book.
If he is worth his salt then he should make good. IMO
As all have said build her back up and trusting you.
The dog still has its natural desire, just need to find ways to build it back up.
A good book I like is Retriever Training: Back to Basic:s by Robert Milner. Pretty good and simple book.
The best part of training is seeing the light come on in your little prot'eg'e.
Rick
Rick
Re: retriever rehabilitation from bad training experience
Sharon, real retriever pros use birds for training - use birds for training every day, both "flyers" and dead birds, if they're as committed to training your dog and as reputable about it as they intend to stay.
Once a dog is on a real retriever trainer's truck, it's on their truck wherever the truck goes - north, south or to the technical pond next door, and not left behind entrusted to a greenhorn. That's with a real professional retriever trainer. Can you infer I'm dubious that this situation would've occurred with a real retriever pro?
MG
Once a dog is on a real retriever trainer's truck, it's on their truck wherever the truck goes - north, south or to the technical pond next door, and not left behind entrusted to a greenhorn. That's with a real professional retriever trainer. Can you infer I'm dubious that this situation would've occurred with a real retriever pro?
MG
Re: retriever rehabilitation from bad training experience
Hi, I won't get involved in the "rights and wrongs" of what happened with the "trainer" but I'd get the dog enjoying itself again .....if it can after what seems to have happened to it. I'd probably try "playing football" with it . No dummies thrown and no dummies sent for.
I might try with a tennis ball just gently kicking it around on the grass hoping the dog would begin to chase and catch. If that worked I'd maybe try a ball with fur or feather attached to the ball, a bit like this .... I call it a "teaser."
The ball is simply perforated and a wing or two wings or a tail is pushed in.
If the dog showed no interest I might then try one of dumbells that have a tennis ball on each end. Forget all about steadiness, just play with the dog and try to arouse it's interest in a ball and later in a rag wrapped ball . You'd have to play it by ear from there as to when to pick up a ball of some kind and throw it rather than just kick it. With some dogs it helps if the retrieve item is kicked into water or thrown into water. The different situation sometimes provokes a dog into grabbing the retrieve item.
I hope something works for you, both you and the dog deserve a bit better than you have had.
Bill T.
I might try with a tennis ball just gently kicking it around on the grass hoping the dog would begin to chase and catch. If that worked I'd maybe try a ball with fur or feather attached to the ball, a bit like this .... I call it a "teaser."
The ball is simply perforated and a wing or two wings or a tail is pushed in.
If the dog showed no interest I might then try one of dumbells that have a tennis ball on each end. Forget all about steadiness, just play with the dog and try to arouse it's interest in a ball and later in a rag wrapped ball . You'd have to play it by ear from there as to when to pick up a ball of some kind and throw it rather than just kick it. With some dogs it helps if the retrieve item is kicked into water or thrown into water. The different situation sometimes provokes a dog into grabbing the retrieve item.
I hope something works for you, both you and the dog deserve a bit better than you have had.
Bill T.
The older I get, the better I was !
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gonehuntin'
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Re: retriever rehabilitation from bad training experience
For one thing, if all you say is true, I would expect the head trainer to take that dog back and rebuild her himself.
Well established facility............It sounds like it was a bird dog (pointing) kennel and NOT a retriever Kennel?
Why would ANY pro leave dogs with a temporary college punk that had no knowledge of dogs?
Something in the story your telling is not right.
I've rebuilt a lot of dogs and the biggest mistake any trainer makes, is to be too soft with them. NEVER TAKE THAT E COLLAR OFF THE DOG WHILE TRAINING IT OR PLAYING WITH IT OUTSIDE. The dog will wear that collar all it's life and it will just have to "man up" and learn to work with it and like it. Every single time you put that collar on the dog, swing it around, hey-hey the pup, then buckle it on and tell her "good dog". Now, go for a run with her, throw her happy bumpers if she'll go, etc.
Here's the problem: First, you have to know how and what was done with the dog. Were it me, I'd just start all over again. Start with obedience, go to force, then to training. Bring her along smoothly and easily. Get a good training program and follow it.
It's hard to tell you just what to do, because you have told us nothing of what happened to the dog. But I can tell you this: If you ease off on her and let her do things her way, she'll milk you for every drop she can get. It's a fine line you have to walk.
Well established facility............It sounds like it was a bird dog (pointing) kennel and NOT a retriever Kennel?
Why would ANY pro leave dogs with a temporary college punk that had no knowledge of dogs?
Something in the story your telling is not right.
I've rebuilt a lot of dogs and the biggest mistake any trainer makes, is to be too soft with them. NEVER TAKE THAT E COLLAR OFF THE DOG WHILE TRAINING IT OR PLAYING WITH IT OUTSIDE. The dog will wear that collar all it's life and it will just have to "man up" and learn to work with it and like it. Every single time you put that collar on the dog, swing it around, hey-hey the pup, then buckle it on and tell her "good dog". Now, go for a run with her, throw her happy bumpers if she'll go, etc.
Here's the problem: First, you have to know how and what was done with the dog. Were it me, I'd just start all over again. Start with obedience, go to force, then to training. Bring her along smoothly and easily. Get a good training program and follow it.
It's hard to tell you just what to do, because you have told us nothing of what happened to the dog. But I can tell you this: If you ease off on her and let her do things her way, she'll milk you for every drop she can get. It's a fine line you have to walk.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.
Re: retriever rehabilitation from bad training experience
There you go. You learn something every day.crackerd wrote:Sharon, real retriever pros use birds for training - use birds for training every day, both "flyers" and dead birds, if they're as committed to training your dog and as reputable about it as they intend to stay.
Once a dog is on a real retriever trainer's truck, it's on their truck wherever the truck goes - north, south or to the technical pond next door, and not left behind entrusted to a greenhorn. That's with a real professional retriever trainer. Can you infer I'm dubious that this situation would've occurred with a real retriever pro?
MG
(In the original post he mentioned using bumpers.)" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett
Re: retriever rehabilitation from bad training experience
Yes there is. But it won't be a formula. In other words, your treatment must be a result of reading your dog and reacting to what you see. Assuming you just got the dog back you should attempt to get redress from the head trainer. If that isn't an option then stop throwing anything for this dog that she doesn't enjoy. If she doesn't want to retrieve right now, then just stop, and spend some time doing other things, and let her get secure with you again.fcbarca wrote:hey, I have a 13 month old female lab that came back from training on october 1st of 2011 (from 6 till 10 months of age)....I basically need to know if there is anything at all I can do to rehab this dog. It has been really tough so far. I put all the money I had into training her, so I don't really have anymore to spend on her. I guess just let me know if you guys have come across anything similar to this, and/or if you know of anything that might work to get her back. Any good advice would be very, very appreciated.
Take a couple weeks at this before throwing a few fun bumpers (or birds) with no mechanical tasks attached. Just make it as fun as you can and read the dog. You'll do well to take this carefully and try to reignite this dog's love for retrieving.
EvanG
“Not all of us can do great things. But we can do small things with great love.”
― Mother Teresa
There is little reason to expect a dog to be more precise than you are.-- Rex Carr
The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
Official Evan Graham Retriever Training Forum
― Mother Teresa
There is little reason to expect a dog to be more precise than you are.-- Rex Carr
The Smartwork System for Retriever Training (link)
Official Evan Graham Retriever Training Forum
Re: retriever rehabilitation from bad training experience
@ crackerd
Thanks for your response MG. I'll try to expand on the information, but what sort of further details in the trainer and training are you interested in knowing? The fc in fcbarca has no relevance to retriever training. I expected her to get a junior title - that was what I was told she would get after 4 months of training.
This guy has been a pro for about 35 years, and has produced a very high number of master hunters. He only does retrievers, and does mostly akc hunt test stuff. Here in Texas, the summer months are really hot - I'm not saying that training can't be done in texas during the summer (i've spoken with several pros sense I've gotten my dog back, and none of them go up north during the summer), but that it makes sense to go up north where the temperature is between 50 to 80 degrees all day. The reasoning behind his decision to go north is that it's not a bad drive, he stays for about 3 months, he's really well connected with other dog training facilities there, and like I said before, the weather is better. Furthermore, sometimes water can be a little harder to find, since it can tend to get so dry. You probably already know all of this, but I'm just explaining what I was told - and it does seem like a good option to go up north, but only if you have a few good people to run the home site. There was also a young woman there who was training with the intern. There were about 20 dogs, and the set up was that she had her dogs, and he had his, so they didn't collaborate very often per head trainers orders - they were to just focus on their dogs and leave the rest to him over the phone. I was able to get in touch with her and she told me that she kept asking the head trainer and the intern if she could give some tips or possibly take over training my dog after they had seen the lack of progress, but she was declined the opportunity.
Please also note that I was not told that this guy was only there for the summer doing an internship for college credit; I found that out later. The head trainer just told me that the guy training my dog was one of his trainers. And you are absolutely right when you say that any respected retriever pro would not leave 10 dogs with a summer intern without any supervision. I've come to find out that recently this trainer has made a lot of ethically questionable decisions. This head trainer has taken on about 60 dogs with only 3 trainers. In the past he had about 20 dogs, 2 trainers, and a person doing a puppy head start program. There are a lot of other things too, but you can call me if you want to know anything further about his apparent deficiency in making moral decisions - long story short, he's after the dollar and no one questions him when he tells them that their dog isn't good enough because of his reputation. The last thing he told me was that he was a coach, and that my dog just didn't have the talent to be a hunting dog. I guess he forgot that he told me that he put his trust in the wrong guy (the intern) and that he was going to make it right - that implies that something was done wrong. I brought her back to him on January 1st after he suggested that she have a break; he yanked her around for about 3 minutes (even off all 4 feet at one time - she had her tail between her legs the whole time), brought her back to me, and told me he wouldn't be able to do anything with her. I've left out a novel of information about this situation - literally one of the strangest things I've ever been a part of.
Thanks for your response MG. I'll try to expand on the information, but what sort of further details in the trainer and training are you interested in knowing? The fc in fcbarca has no relevance to retriever training. I expected her to get a junior title - that was what I was told she would get after 4 months of training.
This guy has been a pro for about 35 years, and has produced a very high number of master hunters. He only does retrievers, and does mostly akc hunt test stuff. Here in Texas, the summer months are really hot - I'm not saying that training can't be done in texas during the summer (i've spoken with several pros sense I've gotten my dog back, and none of them go up north during the summer), but that it makes sense to go up north where the temperature is between 50 to 80 degrees all day. The reasoning behind his decision to go north is that it's not a bad drive, he stays for about 3 months, he's really well connected with other dog training facilities there, and like I said before, the weather is better. Furthermore, sometimes water can be a little harder to find, since it can tend to get so dry. You probably already know all of this, but I'm just explaining what I was told - and it does seem like a good option to go up north, but only if you have a few good people to run the home site. There was also a young woman there who was training with the intern. There were about 20 dogs, and the set up was that she had her dogs, and he had his, so they didn't collaborate very often per head trainers orders - they were to just focus on their dogs and leave the rest to him over the phone. I was able to get in touch with her and she told me that she kept asking the head trainer and the intern if she could give some tips or possibly take over training my dog after they had seen the lack of progress, but she was declined the opportunity.
Please also note that I was not told that this guy was only there for the summer doing an internship for college credit; I found that out later. The head trainer just told me that the guy training my dog was one of his trainers. And you are absolutely right when you say that any respected retriever pro would not leave 10 dogs with a summer intern without any supervision. I've come to find out that recently this trainer has made a lot of ethically questionable decisions. This head trainer has taken on about 60 dogs with only 3 trainers. In the past he had about 20 dogs, 2 trainers, and a person doing a puppy head start program. There are a lot of other things too, but you can call me if you want to know anything further about his apparent deficiency in making moral decisions - long story short, he's after the dollar and no one questions him when he tells them that their dog isn't good enough because of his reputation. The last thing he told me was that he was a coach, and that my dog just didn't have the talent to be a hunting dog. I guess he forgot that he told me that he put his trust in the wrong guy (the intern) and that he was going to make it right - that implies that something was done wrong. I brought her back to him on January 1st after he suggested that she have a break; he yanked her around for about 3 minutes (even off all 4 feet at one time - she had her tail between her legs the whole time), brought her back to me, and told me he wouldn't be able to do anything with her. I've left out a novel of information about this situation - literally one of the strangest things I've ever been a part of.
Re: retriever rehabilitation from bad training experience
@ DonF
Thanks for your reply. Is there any further information in particular that you're curious about? I'm pretty sure I have her trust back. I'll continue solidifying her security in me.
Thanks for your reply. Is there any further information in particular that you're curious about? I'm pretty sure I have her trust back. I'll continue solidifying her security in me.
Re: retriever rehabilitation from bad training experience
@ Sharon
Good idea. Do you have anything in mind that you think might work?
Good idea. Do you have anything in mind that you think might work?
Re: retriever rehabilitation from bad training experience
@ ArcticRetrievers
Thanks for your post. Do you have any details in mind that you would like me to add? Also, I'd love to check on some books if you know of any in particular that would be helpful.
Thanks for your post. Do you have any details in mind that you would like me to add? Also, I'd love to check on some books if you know of any in particular that would be helpful.
Re: retriever rehabilitation from bad training experience
@ Ruff Shooter
Thanks very much for your input. I will check out that book as soon as possible. Any ideas on specific things I could try to build back up that natural desire? The trainer said there is nothing he can do. At the 2 month mark he said everything was fine. At the 2 and a half month mark he said that he put his trust in the wrong guy and that he was going to make it right. At the 3 month mark he said he was almost positive that she would have a junior title by the 4 month mark. At 4 months he told me to take her home, to give her a rest because she wasn't ready, and to bring her back in January. I brought her back and he looked at her for about 3 minutes (no exaggerating here) and said, "ain't gonna happen." I explained in a response to an earlier post that he thinks my dog doesn't have what it takes to be a retriever. I'm pretty confident however, that he just doesn't want to work on her for free. He wants to fill her spot with another dog. He wasn't there when she first came to his place, so he doesn't know how intense she used to be. When I first brought her, the intern drove a stake into the ground and chained her to it. He then threw a bumper to another dog, and she proceeded to pull the stake out of the ground and get to the bumper before the other dog did.
Thanks very much for your input. I will check out that book as soon as possible. Any ideas on specific things I could try to build back up that natural desire? The trainer said there is nothing he can do. At the 2 month mark he said everything was fine. At the 2 and a half month mark he said that he put his trust in the wrong guy and that he was going to make it right. At the 3 month mark he said he was almost positive that she would have a junior title by the 4 month mark. At 4 months he told me to take her home, to give her a rest because she wasn't ready, and to bring her back in January. I brought her back and he looked at her for about 3 minutes (no exaggerating here) and said, "ain't gonna happen." I explained in a response to an earlier post that he thinks my dog doesn't have what it takes to be a retriever. I'm pretty confident however, that he just doesn't want to work on her for free. He wants to fill her spot with another dog. He wasn't there when she first came to his place, so he doesn't know how intense she used to be. When I first brought her, the intern drove a stake into the ground and chained her to it. He then threw a bumper to another dog, and she proceeded to pull the stake out of the ground and get to the bumper before the other dog did.
Re: retriever rehabilitation from bad training experience
@ Trekmoor
Bill, thanks so much for your response. You have provided lot of really great, practical suggestions. I will hopefully be able to try all of those out tomorrow. I love kicking the ball around, so I'm sure I could very easily incorporate that type of exercise into her rehab.
Bill, thanks so much for your response. You have provided lot of really great, practical suggestions. I will hopefully be able to try all of those out tomorrow. I love kicking the ball around, so I'm sure I could very easily incorporate that type of exercise into her rehab.
Re: retriever rehabilitation from bad training experience
@ Gonehuntin'
Thanks for your post. I'll look into trying your suggestions. Please don't question the authenticity of my situation - I'm not here to make up various dog training scenarios to test everyone's knowledge on dog training tactics. I also imagine that you're a person with really good morals since you said that you would expect the head trainer to take my dog back and rebuild her himself. Though I wish he did, this guy does not have your mentality. His facility is well established because of how he has done business in the past, but as I've posted in response to others' questions, he has made some questionble decisions recently that have caused me to suspect that he's just trying to pull in money for not very much work - he has 60 dogs now, but only 3 workers including himself (he has two pieces of property - 40 dogs at his place with one other trainer, and 20 dogs at another place with the other trainer...it just doesn't add up - these dogs are getting time, just not as much as the people are paying for). And it is strictly a retriever kennel - there are no bird dogs or pointers. I also really appreciate your post because it's good to know that other people think what happened is absurd too - it's encouraging that not everyone does business the way this guy does. I try to be as specific as I think you'll read, so let me know if I can expand on or clarify any point. And of course a phone call would be easy too if you're up for that.
Thanks for your post. I'll look into trying your suggestions. Please don't question the authenticity of my situation - I'm not here to make up various dog training scenarios to test everyone's knowledge on dog training tactics. I also imagine that you're a person with really good morals since you said that you would expect the head trainer to take my dog back and rebuild her himself. Though I wish he did, this guy does not have your mentality. His facility is well established because of how he has done business in the past, but as I've posted in response to others' questions, he has made some questionble decisions recently that have caused me to suspect that he's just trying to pull in money for not very much work - he has 60 dogs now, but only 3 workers including himself (he has two pieces of property - 40 dogs at his place with one other trainer, and 20 dogs at another place with the other trainer...it just doesn't add up - these dogs are getting time, just not as much as the people are paying for). And it is strictly a retriever kennel - there are no bird dogs or pointers. I also really appreciate your post because it's good to know that other people think what happened is absurd too - it's encouraging that not everyone does business the way this guy does. I try to be as specific as I think you'll read, so let me know if I can expand on or clarify any point. And of course a phone call would be easy too if you're up for that.
Re: retriever rehabilitation from bad training experience
Yes there is. But it won't be a formula. In other words, your treatment must be a result of reading your dog and reacting to what you see. Assuming you just got the dog back you should attempt to get redress from the head trainer. If that isn't an option then stop throwing anything for this dog that she doesn't enjoy. If she doesn't want to retrieve right now, then just stop, and spend some time doing other things, and let her get secure with you again.
Take a couple weeks at this before throwing a few fun bumpers (or birds) with no mechanical tasks attached. Just make it as fun as you can and read the dog. You'll do well to take this carefully and try to reignite this dog's love for retrieving.
@ EvanG
Evan, thanks a lot for your input - it confirms a lot of advice I've gotten from others.
Take a couple weeks at this before throwing a few fun bumpers (or birds) with no mechanical tasks attached. Just make it as fun as you can and read the dog. You'll do well to take this carefully and try to reignite this dog's love for retrieving.
@ EvanG
Evan, thanks a lot for your input - it confirms a lot of advice I've gotten from others.