Should I start FF?

[DogNewbie]

Hello,

My GWP pup is about 8months old and now that the hunting season is over and winter is setting in, I'm thinking about FF him, but I wanted to get some opinions on this first. My concern is that he isn't steady on birds yet. The pheasant population was really down in MN this year and I was only able to get up north grouse hunting once, so his number of wild bird encounters is pretty low. As for fetching, I've shot birds for him that I flushed while he was off somewhere else, and when he finds them he tends to pluck the feathers out until I call him, then he'll pick the bird up and start towards me, dropping the bird multiple times so he can pluck out more feathers. So, my thought process is this: I'm not going to be working him on launchers until the spring so why not FF him this winter? I can't see any potential issues arising from doing it this way, but I'm a first time trainer so I'm a bit cautious of messing up.

[MTR]

I was in the exact same place you were last year. A few of the trainers in my NAVHDA chapter pushed me to steady him up for the second year to wing shot fall. I don't know if it was right or wrong, but I did it. They also said that the steadiness will most likely fall apart a little this summer because of the FF, but should come back quickly. Started FF first of the year and hope to be through it the end February. Following a hybrid approach of SmartFetch (Evan Graham's) and some of the things members do in our chapter. Transitioned to e-collar just this weekend and I couldn't be happier with the progress so far. Good luck.

[DogNewbie]

So you held off on FF until after you steadied him? I wonder why they suggested that if he's going to lose steadiness because of the FF anyway? Thanks for the post!

[MTR]

I don't know if they thought that it may be too much pressure for a younger WPG or what. They all said that it would come back just in a week or two of bird work. I also had decided that I personally (as well as the dog) wouldn't be ready to UT in the fall, since he would have only been 19 months, and wanted to wait unit 2.5 to try and UT and work on Duck work. Perhaps they could read that in me and the dog. I duck hunt so little now that FF last fall wasn't that big of a deal for me, but steadiness for safety was more important. I had a few instances of him parading a grouse around when he retrived, but overall he was finding downed birds reliably enough for me that, so far, I am glad that I waited.

[DonF]

Something that really blows my mind is that most people seem to think FF is the only way to teach their dog to retrieve. I have had very few dogs myself that have needed it but I've done quite a bit over the years, sometimes I'm thinking I did to much. You have said absolutely nothing about doing any kind of retrieve training at all other than the few birds you shot and he plucked. What did you think would happen if you sent him to a dead bird and he had no clue how it got there or what you wanted with it? And you probably didn't send him, you took him to it, right? FF is not started out with a bird, I start with a training buck, old hammer handle. Years ago fetch was taught when the pup was a pup, very young pup. Play training where the pup can't fail. A hallway works well and so did a cc outside, both still work very well! Today it seems no one goes to the trouble. They are more intrested in stucking a bird in it's mouth and leaving the retrieving for later with the FF. Well you may have put yourself in the position now where FF just might be the only way to go!

I do understand why you did that. Everybody it seem's, say's forget about that and FF later. A few people still use the play training way and their dogs do very well without FF.

[MTR]

Don,

IMHO, I think that there is a big difference between FF and retrieving. Two seperate things. Throwing a dummy and having your dog bring it back = retrieving. Shooting a blank shot into the air over a pond and commanding FETCH and having your dog go and find a duck he didn't see fall out of the air is fetch. $0.02

[gundogguy]

Hello,

My GWP pup is about 8months old and now that the hunting season is over and winter is setting in, I'm thinking about FF him, but I wanted to get some opinions on this first. My concern is that he isn't steady on birds yet. The pheasant population was really down in MN this year and I was only able to get up north grouse hunting once, so his number of wild bird encounters is pretty low. As for fetching, I've shot birds for him that I flushed while he was off somewhere else, and when he finds them he tends to pluck the feathers out until I call him, then he'll pick the bird up and start towards me, dropping the bird multiple times so he can pluck out more feathers. So, my thought process is this: I'm not going to be working him on launchers until the spring so why not FF him this winter? I can't see any potential issues arising from doing it this way, but I'm a first time trainer so I'm a bit cautious of messing up.

I really think the mechanics of a trained retrieved would come before steadiness to wing & shot. Retriveing is really one of the basic behaviors that a servicable gundog should have. Steadiness is more in the advanced area of behaviors that dogs might be taught to demonstrate.
Here!
Acceptance of gunfire
Fetch
intro to birds
(point)( or) (flush) depending on breed
steadiness
Backing
honoring
Just the order I work on based on the dogs that I have seen
Best of fortunes with your pup

[birddog1968]

Thats about exactly how i would bring along a waterfowl dog (lab) , just not a pointing dog....some can take it at a year some can't. I find the full season on birds to be a great prelude to FF before second season. Just my thoughts....

I also, in my posts anyway, never meant STWSF just handling birds and holding them for you to flush, Steady for me would come after FF + another season of hunting or during that second season.

[birddogger]

Thats about exactly how i would bring along a waterfowl dog (lab) , just not a pointing dog....some can take it at a year some can't. I find the full season on birds to be a great prelude to FF before second season. Just my thoughts....

I also, in my posts anyway, never meant STWSF just handling birds and holding them for you to flush, Steady for me would come after FF + another season of hunting or during that second season.

I would pretty much agree with this and I believe a dog takes to more training and commands much better after a proper FF program.

Charlie

[gonehuntin']

I'm one of those who ff EVERY dog, need it or not. FF has little to do with retrieving desire, it is simple and additional obedience command. I find a dog bonds much closer to a trainer after ff.

FF is a greatly misunderstood concept.

[gundogguy]

I'm one of those who ff EVERY dog, need it or not. FF has little to do with retrieving desire, it is simple and additional obedience command. I find a dog bonds much closer to a trainer after ff.

FF is a greatly misunderstood concept.

Very good! If they do bond with people it does seem stronger. I do know they do bond to the work stronger. Whether it is and Upland job or Nonslip job the dogs confidence levels soar after proper FF.

[bumper52]

gonehuntin' hit the nail on the head....ff is way more than about retrieving....when done properly, you will have a whole new dog (attitude wise)

[DogNewbie]

Thanks for all the replies! I think I'll wait until next winter to FF him. Let him get a good training spring and summer and then a good first season. In the mean time I'll just keep playing fetch with him and maybe try to introduce hold so he doesn't drop the bumpers as much.

[gonehuntin']

I'd personally do it about Feb., then work him through the summer and fall. 10 months to a year is a great time to ff. The younger, the easier.

[brad27]

I'd personally do it about Feb., then work him through the summer and fall. 10 months to a year is a great time to ff. The younger, the easier.

Less bad habits?

[DogNewbie]

I'd personally do it about Feb., then work him through the summer and fall. 10 months to a year is a great time to ff. The younger, the easier.

I'd also like to hear more on this. You seem to be the first person to say earlier is better.

[gundogguy]

You should start now do not delay


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yd72kl9lZlc

[Waterdogs1]

Interesting read. I am new to pointing dogs but have trained many,many retrievers. Most the dog I have trained in a perfect world would be FF around 6-8 months depending on the dog retrieving desire and if the pup has adult teeth yet. So this is interesting to hear. I have wondered what sequence pointing dog trainers use. I start my lab pups retrieving socks and Dokkens and what ever they like down a hallway. When they get a lttle older I teach then to come and when they are good on that I throw marks for them. Dokkens bumpers and so on not really asking them to be to steady depending on the dog and desire level. Once they have that burning desire to retrieve I then start FF. I am getting a new GSP and would really like to know what sequence is best for a pointing dog. I would still do my fun retrieving as a puppy as I do my labs. It almost seem more logical to FF when dog is young before you teach other commands. I start out teaching hold with my two finger behind K-9s and then a dumb Bell, then when they are holding well I go to fetch getting them to reach a little way with ear pressure and one they are reaching for it I eventually get them to the ground picking it up. When they are picking it up with just ear pressure and are consistant on the dumb bell then. I switch to the E- collar and get to the point I can do leave it fetch with dumb bell, then Bumpers then Dokkens and when they are solid then I use birds. Simple some pressure but not anything they do not understand. Not sure if that is what you would do with a pointing dog I would love to hear how some of the bird dog guys do it and what sequence.