Tail Dropping on Whoa

bb560m · Post by **bb560m** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:16 pm

Dog (vizsla) is 12mos old, great recall, pretty good whoa. Just practicing in yard for now. When he does whoa his tail goes from pretty vertical to horizontal - looks ugly. I don't know what he would do on birds, not ready to try that yet as his whoa isn't rock solid. Any tips for getting that tail to stay up? I've been running my finger down his tail and that keeps it up, then releasing him from the whoa after he hold it 5-10 seconds. I will sometimes throw a treat in front of him and then free him so he gets the reward as well.

Any other tips? Following the method Jon Hann uses to teach whoa - just on a leash in a heel.

Thanks.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:20 pm

don't worry about the tail in yard work..

when the dog gets on birds the tail should come up where it is designed to go

if you go messing with the tail you will make it an issue

EPointer=Birdss · Post by **EPointer=Birdss** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:48 am

Your dogs tail is designed to be horizontal. That's how they are naturally & the desired trait in Europe where they started off. The idea is a dog points with his head & paw in the direction of the bird & the tail follows this line. A solid point Like this is a very nice site so I wouldn't be worried.
Vertical tails has been introduced in the US as an easy on eye. Is it a desired trait when competing perhaps?
You will need to train the dog contrary to it's instinct. From any whoa training I've seen what your doing seems the normal method & persistence is key.
Good luck with it & keep up the consistent approach

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:22 am

Sorry but here we like the tail to go up. Flat tails don't have the wow factor.

Keep the dog happy and you will be fine. Stroke the tail up when it goes down.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:06 am

I am in the camp of "don't worry about the tail"....All you are doing is teaching him to stand still on command. On birds he will be intense and his tail will be in the position that is natural for him.

Charlie

Benny · Post by **Benny** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:15 am

Oh I'm a fan of the tail being up too, but I don't care what the tail is doing when I command the dog to "whoa."

You're not instructing the dog to point on command correct? If you want to have that tail-up interaction with your dog in training, you place a pigeon in the bushes (restrained, not for flushing) and with your dog on the check cord you allow it to quarter until it's very clear that the scent has been associated with the bird, THEN you can "whoa" your pup, and encourage the flagging of the tail.

Your dog has no reason to flag when it's sitting in a yard.

Or at least that's how I see it...

*sorry birddogger I posted at the same time as you...+1 on that

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:20 am

*sorry birddogger I posted at the same time as you...+1 on that

It happens to me all the time Benny.

Charlie

RoostersMom · Post by **RoostersMom** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:22 am

My Vizsla, and many others that I hunt with have more horizontal tails. I don't worry about it. He finds plenty of birds!

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:07 am

Not to be worried about too much but it could be an indication your being a little to overpowering ( for lack of a better word) in the teaching.....not that you are but just something to think about...

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:09 am

As I recall, in the system your using, you give the command and jerk pretty hard on the lead at the same time. In time that may go away, probably will. But for now I believe you conditioned the dog to drop it's tail and stop on command, the command is "whoa". Ever watch a good obedience dog at an obedience trial? They do not drop their tail. The UD dog can be recalled and stopped on the way back with no problem. The lady that taught me obedience and in the classes I gave, there were no harsh corrections other than a surly dog. I delt with the surly dog and it could go down on me, I didn't care but, regained it's composure when handed back to the owner. Teaching "whoa" on the heel is no different than teaching sit on the heel. I think a lot of bird dog trainers could learn a great deal by watching a good obedience trainer. It's not the commands, it's the way they are taught.

bb560m · Post by **bb560m** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:11 am

I'm not sure what he'll do on a bird when we start to break him and use whoa. His tail is usually pretty high for a vizsla and makes him stand out - just afraid it will drop when I say whoah and he'll lose some of his style.

For now in the yard I'll just ignore it - we'll see in a year or so when he gets broke what happens. Probably going to let a pro do it though and make it their problem. I imagine he'll keep it up since he is so intense on birds.

BTW - for those saying ignore it because they still find birds - I wish it was that simple in field trials

.

Post by **Sharon** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:23 am

I wouldn't wporry about it either . Not much you can do anyway. I had a setter who ran with her tail straight out , no movement, and Judges notice that and don't like it.

bb560m · Post by **bb560m** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:29 am

DonF wrote:As I recall, in the system your using, you give the command and jerk pretty hard on the lead at the same time. In time that may go away, probably will. But for now I believe you conditioned the dog to drop it's tail and stop on command, the command is "whoa". Ever watch a good obedience dog at an obedience trial? They do not drop their tail. The UD dog can be recalled and stopped on the way back with no problem. The lady that taught me obedience and in the classes I gave, there were no harsh corrections other than a surly dog. I delt with the surly dog and it could go down on me, I didn't care but, regained it's composure when handed back to the owner. Teaching "whoa" on the heel is no different than teaching sit on the heel. I think a lot of bird dog trainers could learn a great deal by watching a good obedience trainer. It's not the commands, it's the way they are taught.

I don't jerk any longer - he understands the command. Just trying to make it bullet proof now and keep it exciting for him when doing it - hopefully that will help with his confidence and he'll be fine once out on a bird.

volraider · Post by **volraider** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:45 pm

It's a sign of pressure from the trainer. Guess what's going to happen when he points a bird and you walk up and say Whoa!

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:48 pm

Check out the west method. If I'm not mistaken it was developed with the vizsla and some other breeds in mind. Magma bird dogs has a link to a video series that can take you through the process. Some good stuff.

I would rather not have to say a word around birds, just the expectation that the dog knows it needs to stand still when I get in front of it.

Benny · Post by **Benny** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:57 pm

ultracarry wrote:I would rather not have to say a word around birds, just the expectation that the dog knows it needs to stand still when I get in front of it.

I would agree with that for sure. Especially long ranged dogs (which most are).
Ultracarry, do you ever integrate birds with the whoa training or just move towards a silent approach on the check cord?

EPointer=Birdss · Post by **EPointer=Birdss** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:21 pm

ultracarry wrote:Sorry but here we like the tail to go up. Flat tails don't have the wow factor.

I would rather hold a dog on the merits of how it works than how he looks.
I am suprised that the trialing world prefer & rate dogs on this trait as it has nothing to do with a "working breed" but is more of a show ring aesthetically pleasing trait.

It's long way from the traditional ways of doing things.
Each to their own I suppose.

EPointer=Birdss · Post by **EPointer=Birdss** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:23 pm

RoostersMom wrote:My Vizsla, and many others that I hunt with have more horizontal tails. I don't worry about it. He finds plenty of birds!

Amen

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:25 pm

That's why I like a barrel for whoa breaking. Its hands off.

On another if a dog can't take some pressure it isn't worth feeding.

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:28 pm

volraider wrote:It's a sign of pressure from the trainer. Guess what's going to happen when he points a bird and you walk up and say Whoa!

If you have to whoa him on point to keep him steady then he isn't broke.

bb560m · Post by **bb560m** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:40 pm

bigsugar wrote:
volraider wrote:It's a sign of pressure from the trainer. Guess what's going to happen when he points a bird and you walk up and say Whoa!

If you have to whoa him on point to keep him steady then he isn't broke.

My boy isn't close to broke, he is steady to flush, but then chases. On birds I don't see a reason to whoa him, unless he doesn't figure out in a year or so to not move on flush. Maybe just some check chord and a lot of pigeon launcher will do the trick. We'll see - long ways off. Until then I'll make woah more fun and hands off and see if his confidence comes back. He is a pretty hard headed vizsla so it's weird to not see his tail straight up.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:16 pm

Whoa around birds is partially a crutch, your telling the dog i don't trust you stop......I don't put a hard whoa on my dogs anymore, I teach them to stand and be honest on their birds, which is all about having/developing an intense dog on point.....not a dog thats dreading you walking up saying whoa.

If that above makes sense, its why (right or wrong) i believe the early bird work helping a dog learn to honestly point and hold their birds, while preserving/building intensity, is so important.

It was an eye opener when i realized i didn't need to make em point and hold their birds but make them WANT to point and hold their birds....

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:31 pm

Each dog is different, some dogs can take a ton of pressure and some cant. Our job as trainers is to adapt to each dog as an individual, or we get in the situation where we are ramming a square peg through a round hole. Which is why some people burn through dogs IMO looking for the "one" that works. You have to be able to adapt to each individual dog and what that dog needs to figure the game out.

As far as the tail is concerned my pointer just stands there when I "whoa" him and he looks like a million bucks on point.

Also, I try not to "Whoa" my dogs on birds. Try to be as quiet as possible, but sometimes I cant help myself!

Vman · Post by **Vman** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:25 pm

Whoa barrel.JPG

Rocky whoa.JPG

Bud Gooly.jpg

At this point in his training he is still learning what the Whoa command means. It isn`t cut and dried just yet, so you may very well see the tail drop some. Not a big deal at this time. Just as long as it isn`t tucked, that is another deal.
Couple of things that you can do here that may help.
Put the dog up on the barrel and stroke up his tail {style him up} while whispering whooooooaaaaa. Do this several times a day.
Do not say WHOA!! very negative.
String the command out smooth and pleasant. Do not be harsh.
If you have releases, pop a pigeon while he is being styled up.
If I get a moppy dog that doesn`t really enjoy the training and looks like I kicked him in the guts, I will whooooaaaa the dog and then flight a pigeon.
Up too this point the training has been mostly negative. This is bringing something positive for him. After several whoas and flights of the bird he should expect to see a bird and may very well go on point, or at least look like it when whoa`d. Now it is a positive experience and he will not mind stopping at all and will look good doing it.

Good Luck!

As long as he has good style on point and you are not giving harsh commands, I doubt he will loose style because you say whoa under your breathe. The bird is going too help you out here.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:41 pm

Benny wrote:
ultracarry wrote:I would rather not have to say a word around birds, just the expectation that the dog knows it needs to stand still when I get in front of it.
I would agree with that for sure. Especially long ranged dogs (which most are).
Ultracarry, do you ever integrate birds with the whoa training or just move towards a silent approach on the check cord?

Just silent method.... That's what her trainer taught me.

Benny · Post by **Benny** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:07 pm

ultracarry wrote: Just silent method.... That's what her trainer taught me.

that makes good sense to me.

volraider · Post by **volraider** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:50 pm

If you have to whoa him on point to keep him steady then he isn't broke.

I don't train for whoa. I use the west method.

snips · Post by **snips** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:33 pm

I honestly think most Viz's do better waiting til 18 mo to 2 yrs to start breaking.....

Vman · Post by **Vman** » Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:39 am

Re: Tail Dropping on Whoa

Postby snips » Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:33 pm
I honestly think most Viz's do better waiting til 18 mo to 2 yrs to start breaking.....

As a general rule most Vizslas do mature later compared to some of the other breeds. So when training or breaking a young Vizsla, the method that you use is of utmost importance. Methods that work for some breeds at a young age can very well blow up on certain Vizslas. That is why cookie cutter trainers struggle with the breed. Low pressure and positive reinforcement will work wonders.

gittrdonebritts · Post by **gittrdonebritts** » Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:21 am

He is dropping his tail cause your talking to him, he thinks your mad at him or gonna correct him so he drops his tail.

Vman · Post by **Vman** » Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:39 am

Following the method Jon Hann uses to teach whoa - just on a leash in a heel.

I bet he doesn`t heel with his tail up either. So why would he raise it when Whoa`d?

Vman · Post by **Vman** » Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:30 pm

Naya 4.JPG

Naya 1.JPG

This 8 month old female came in on Wed. the owner wanted me to spend some time with her. I put her up on the barrel for the first time today and after a minute of wiggling and squirming, I got her too settle down and this is what she looks like within 5 minutes. I was able to take these pics {4} with no helper or any problem. The style she shows is the style she has on birds.
No confusion equals a stylish dog. I could walk all the way around the dog and she wouldn`t move. Easy money.

ST8 UPPOINTERS · Post by **ST8 UPPOINTERS** » Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:38 pm

Take the dog to a field with some birds in your vest, wait till the dog is 15-20 yards away say whoa enforce with collar if needed, when dog stops throw a bird from vest. Due this a few times and u will have a dog excited to whoa, and look good doin it..

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:54 pm

Vman if that's a pic of the pup on a barrel what's the consequence for the pup jumping off. I use a barrel and a table also to whoa break but my dogs have a bad time (self inflicted) if the decide to jump off.

Also what's the pinch collar for on the barrel. I can see it on the ground (although I have never and will never use one) but not on the barrel so much.

Vman · Post by **Vman** » Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:53 pm

Vman if that's a pic of the pup on a barrel what's the consequence for the pup jumping off. I use a barrel and a table also to whoa break but my dogs have a bad time (self inflicted) if the decide to jump off.

Also what's the pinch collar for on the barrel. I can see it on the ground (although I have never and will never use one) but not on the barrel so much.

Very seldom do I use the pinch collar on the barrel. But the dog that is wearing it was a dog that liked to jump off the barrel. Notice I have a leash on the dogs. If I see they are going to jump I beat them too it and get on the leash. If it goes correctly they will hang themselves and I immediately put them back up on the barrel and they basically tell me "I aint never doin that again". The last pic of the 8mo. old tried jumping off once. Done deal and no pinch collar. I will add that the dog that is wearing the pinch collar was about 2 yrs. old and not a pup. Very seldom do I use a pinch collar at all. Only in extreme cases.

bigsugar · Post by **bigsugar** » Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:57 pm

I kind of figure that's where you were going with that. I have my barrel under a tree branch and the same concept if he jumps off. He hangs there until I put him back up. Usually (I say usually) they figure it out pretty quick. I have had some thick headed rascals that really thought they could get off that barrel.

bb560m · Post by **bb560m** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 10:46 am

Vman wrote:
Following the method Jon Hann uses to teach whoa - just on a leash in a heel.
I bet he doesn`t heel with his tail up either. So why would he raise it when Whoa`d?

Tail is up in heel. I got him keeping his tail up on whoa now too, short periods, gently saying whoa, then releasing him after 2-3 seconds before he can drop it. Usually give him a treat or very high praise afterwards. Only do it 1-2 times and just do it randomly during the day. Seems to be working.

Vman · Post by **Vman** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:26 pm

Tail is up in heel. I got him keeping his tail up on whoa now too, short periods, gently saying whoa, then releasing him after 2-3 seconds before he can drop it. Usually give him a treat or very high praise afterwards. Only do it 1-2 times and just do it randomly during the day. Seems to be working.

You are doing just fine then.

Post by **Sharon** » Sat Jan 28, 2012 1:12 pm

bb560m wrote:
Vman wrote:
Following the method Jon Hann uses to teach whoa - just on a leash in a heel.
Tail is up in heel. I got him keeping his tail up on whoa now too, short periods, gently saying whoa, then releasing him after 2-3 seconds before he can drop it. Usually give him a treat or very high praise afterwards. Only do it 1-2 times and just do it randomly during the day. Seems to be working.

If that's important to you , then I'm glad it's working. Personally I could care less where his tail is when heeling. He just better be heeling.

Vman · Post by **Vman** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:07 pm

On Fri. I showed pics of Naya on the barrel. I did not touch her in regards to Whoa since. Today I put her back on the barrel and took a couple of pics. Then I moved her too the ground for the first time and gave her the Whoa command. She understood and I never made a correction. I then let her run around and I Whoa`d her several times increasing the distance each time. The pic of her on the driveway is what I got after a total training time of around 20 minutes. That is from the first time on the barrel to stopping her at 20 plus yards. 20 minutes training time total. See her tail? No confusion. She is doing as commanded and looks good doing it. She was coming at me when I gave her the command she probably took 3 steps to stop. This is not a boot licking dog. She is out of very good trial stock and can cover some ground.
No way you are going to get these results in 20 minutes with a whoa post, pinch collar or teaching it at heel, place boards or slings or tables.
It is simple, clean and the dog understands and learns easily with no pressure to speak of.
Not trying to blow my horn here. just trying to show how simple Whoa training can be using methods that don`t confuse the dog.

Naya butt.JPG

Naya Whoad.JPG

4dabirds · Post by **4dabirds** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:08 pm

Vman wrote:
No way you are going to get these results in 20 minutes with a whoa post, pinch collar or teaching it at heel, place boards or slings or tables.
It is simple, clean and the dog understands and learns easily with no pressure to speak of.
Not trying to blow my horn here. just trying to show how simple Whoa training can be using methods that don`t confuse the dog.

Naya butt.JPG

Naya Whoad.JPG

The place board can be used as a transition from the barrel to the ground. It allows the dog which is place oriented to understand a little easier that whoa means to stay in one place . You can communicate the idea better to the dog with less pressure in situations such as walking to the board, command whoa and continue walking. The dog will pick it up faster if the dog has been given the place board to stand on previously since up until now your walking forward is the cue for the dog to walk forward. The more situations you put the dog into for whoa, the better it is to break it down into smaller steps. When generalizing the command the board is easy to bring to the field this gives the dog one more cue to help it to understand the behavior thus leaving out the pressure of leash jerks that sap the dog of style. I use a clicker to mark the behavior at the exact moment it happens to add another level of understanding for the dog and making the behavior a rewardable behavior. Rewardable behaviors are more likely to be repeated

gittrdonebritts · Post by **gittrdonebritts** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:05 pm

Place boards, barrels or whoa posts are just extra junk to carry around and waste training time keep following the PS/PF method or get a hold of any of Dave walkers DVD's or the Training with Mo book. you can worry about style later when your working the dog on or around birds.

4dabirds · Post by **4dabirds** » Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:58 am

I try to use training methods that make it easier for the dog not easier for me . A dog that is understanding what is expected and is being rewarded for exhibiting wanted behaviors will approach traing sessions with antisapation and the natural style the dog is born with will shine through without Any work later. I do not think that correction has any place in teaching a dog a specific behavior. This leads to a dog that performs to avoid correction . When the correction stops the dog is likely to regress and need continued correction. Correction should be saved for guaranteeing compliance after the behavior is trained. The correction should be timely and perceived by the dog as significant.