whoa vs. birds

[NVgsp]

there was a similar post on another forum but not quite this spacific...just curious as to who here believes that birds, birds, birds as a young dog (puppy) is best or maybe you think that plenty of yard work to produce a whoa broke dog before introducing birds is better. please give reasons for each side. i can see the benefits on both ends but i am wondering if anyone here as performed both methods to achieve the same results but maybe one was more efficient then the other.

[Maurice]

Birds 1st for me but they have to be good flying birds.. I will add the control when the dog tells me it is ready.

Mo

[kninebirddog]

Birds..preferably good flyers...I start with quail for little little puppies then go to pigeons for older ones

whoa is done in the back yard at dinner time on whoa post and methods are determined by age and mental state of dog being handled

I do not whoa a dog on birds I may check the check cord impedeing forward motion ...and or will pop the launcher
but I will whoa a dog after point has been made and they are ready to break

If we had the luxery of wild birds to train on and more cover...training methods adapt to what is needed...

There are 101 ways to skin a cat

[original mngsp]

birds, birds, and more birds.

Whoa and other yard work is important but keep it seperate from birds and don't be to heavy with it until the dog is more mature.

[ohiogsp]

Birds man. I don't even teach whoa until after my dogs are steady. The birds will teach them to point, be steady, and very stylish. For me whoa is for reinforcment and help with backing training. Accually I don't even use whoa for STW&S. Yard training is a very small part of my training.

[gundogguru]

Yard training is a very small part of my training. you most do things a lot different than most.

[Ridge-Point]

All birds for me. I don't do whoa, the birds are suposed to mean whoa. Good flyers is a must like everyone else said.

Jusitn

[NVgsp]

the reason i ask is becuase i attended a seminar not too long ago, where the lecturer would not show a dog a bird until the dog was completely whoa broke, then with training, slowly bridge the two (whoa & birds) so that one meant the other.

i do the same as the majority of you guys, which is training with a lot of birds and letting the dog learn from the birds...but the whoa broke method is pretty interesting.

it's neat how we can all train for the same purpose, but use totally different routes to get there.

[Hotpepper]

As many wild birds as you can put the young dog behind.

Young dog should not be allowed to "catch" a bird, do not care what kind it is.

My personal belief is that when they show a tendency to "NOT" point and attempt to catch, time to break them. Derby stakes with unbroke dogs encourage chasing, then a long time after to get them broke after they cannot run in the derby any longer.

If mine is going to run in a derby, then he is going to be broke.

Just my opinion

[Ayres]

NVgsp wrote:
the reason i ask is becuase i attended a seminar not too long ago, where the lecturer would not show a dog a bird until the dog was completely whoa broke, then with training, slowly bridge the two (whoa & birds) so that one meant the other.

i do the same as the majority of you guys, which is training with a lot of birds and letting the dog learn from the birds...but the whoa broke method is pretty interesting.

it's neat how we can all train for the same purpose, but use totally different routes to get there.

I used the bridge method you described. Training woah for my dog took an exceptionally short amount of time, though, for some unknown reason (I still claim that it was because he sat in his kennel and watched the Perfection Kennel videos with me ), so it was quickly meshed.

I do know of trainers that go woah first, then incorporate that into bird work. (And by saying that I don't mean that the dog never sees birds until it's woah broke, just that before heavy bird work starts woah training will be done). In my opinion, it's easier to incorporate good bird work without coming up on setbacks if yard work has previously been decently instilled into the dog. For example, if your dog is breaking on the flush, commanding it to woah just before you flush helps correct that. Same thing if the dog is breaking on the gunfire.

When bringing Justus up from SH level into MH level training, my trainer and I noticed that he was breaking on a two-count following the shot. Example: bird goes up, shot goes off, .. one .. two.. Justus broke. Oddly enough, it was consistent. So I timed it and started calmly saying woah just before he broke, and the problem was solved within a day or two.

Does everyone need to instill the woah command before heavy bird work? No. It's preference. I think it makes it a lot easier when training a dog to MH level though, where steady to wing and shot is necessary.

[Wagonmaster]

birds, preferably wild birds. i wish i could get the dogs into them as much as we used to in the past. too much development.

[ohiogsp]

"gundogguru", I think you were quoting me right? I do stuff alot different than most. I don't know if anyone else uses my method or not. I start my dogs on birds no training at all. I have great flying homers. I let the dogs run and flush as mush as they want as pups on a checkcord. I also go straight to STW&S. I just stop after they flush. No commands. They will start pointing because they will figure it out they can't catch the bird. After they are holding point. Then I have an assistant start flushing the birds. I just hold the dog on the cord. Always STW&S they never get to chase. They will start being steady and pointing on there own. Then I move to remote launchers when they are older of course and basically do the same thing. I also switch to the electric collar. My dogs are very stylish because there is absolutly no pressure on them. I don't command them so they are stylish because they figured it out on there own. When I am done with this part of my training my dog don't know any commands yet but are pointing birds all day long and are STW&S. Then I will start training commands and FF my dogs if I have to. (You will need hundreds of birds to train this way thats why I use homers. )

P.S. I trained a dog whoa one time and then whoaed it on the birds for bird work and it had the loosest points and would even drop her tail on point. That was the last one I did that way. It may work for others but it did not for me.

[Breton13]

Ohio GSP, do you train whoa at all? Just wondering with other situations besides on point, if it would be useful!? (dog running off, not responding to come etc. for the less controlled dog. Or owner.... ) I'm new to this, so I'm just asking for people's point of view.

[ohiogsp]

I use whoa for backing and for stopping a dog in the field for any other reason. I just don't train it until after pointing and STW&S. I use come as a command for other situations and my dogs know what it means. Come is do it now, no matter what, and don't stop til you make it to me. To me come is the most important command and you can't give any lee way on that one.

[gundogguru]

ohiogsp I understand where you are coming from. There is NO ONE WAY to train a bird dog. everybody does things differently. Nive looking dog.

[Wa Chukar Hunter]

I have used both methods - whoa training before birds - which can yield good results - and recently I have not trained whoa until a ton of wild birds have been bumped and chased by young pups - I winter in TX and go to SD in the summer the past two seasons.

I have found that dogs worked on wild birds are harder driving dogs and prefer that way to breaking dogs if I can.

[kninebirddog]

Unfortunatley where I live wild bird training is not feasable....and so to train a dog we are forced to used pen raised birds....Again I would much rather use wild birds ...

We bring our pups and dogs around birds from the start...I use majority of Rick Smith methods in our training sessions

a pup from the time up to about 10-12 weeks ...i want them to build drive so I put out birds for them to play bump and chase...and if they catch a bird as a small puppy so what....this is the start of retrieving...I do not allow it to continue though once caught it is graduation to some informal puppy training on the check cord...I keep all puppy training session short and as fun as possible for them

when I do go to whoa training here again I use the Rick Smith method which I have found to work great for us..start of with silent commands then when they know what is happening then enter the command..this macks for dogs learning quicker as when you have them doing what you want with out words which helps keep out emotions sessions go much faster

Thre are a bunch of grwat methods...and when your in a posostion of handling many different dogs one needs to be open to different methods for different dogs and different scenarios

The best method is the one YOU and your dog can understand and that YOU feel the most comfortable with

[ohiogsp]

gundogguru, Thanks Man.