Dog got bird.......

[sandhillsgsp]

Was doing some training today with some quail and the launchers. The pup has been creeping a little so i've been working a lot on her steadiness. Well, she hit a great point about 8yds off a bird and i walked up to the launcher and flushed. The bird took off and then dropped about 20 yards off. The dog gave chase and got the bird. She then proceeded to bring it to me and i had to take it out of her mouth. How bad is this?
We then went through a field and i brought her up on the last bird. When she hit the point i walked up the checkcord in case she crept or bolted. She went to take a step and i gave a tug on the hitch around her waist and she stayed tight. I then flushed from behind her and she stayed steady as the bird went into the woods. I led her off and called it a day.

Ok, let me have it. Thoughts?

[BillGraves]

If she stood her ground the second time and you ended with that, I'd say the first catch wasn't a terrible thing. Certainly not the best thing, but more experiences with birds and holding steady will sure her up.

Bill

[bb560m]

Dog is ruined - it will never point now - return to sender.

Get some good flying pigeons - 1 bird won't matter too much.

[DonF]

It's not the end of the world, easy to get around it this young. That is exactly why I don't train with game birds in a launcher. A dog get's nothing other than a pigeon from me, I am able to stop it if it does break. Did I mention, get pigeons? They never do that, they land in a tree!

[SetterNut]

Its not the end of the world. But poor flying birds is a big problem waiting to happen,

I agree with getting some pigeons. Don't know where you are in your training process but it sound like you are early in the process of taking the chase out of the dog. Poor flying quail will make that much harder. You need the bird to fly off the field, quail don't do that as often as you need.

[brad27]

On the first bird I would have held the CC and made sure she couldn't chase that far and catch the bird. On the second bird I would have launched the bird when she took that step, still holding the CC. You want the dog to learn to stand birds because if it moves/creeps the bird leaves, not because you want it to stand. Remember, it's between the dog and the bird, not the bird, you and the dog.

PS, a young dog catching one bird after it flushed isn't the end of the world.

[northern cajun]

Move forward, don't do it again LOL get good flying pigeons game birds later in process.

Forget about it and move forward.

[DonF]

Is your launcher a remote?

[sandhillsgsp]

Yes, the launchers are remote.

Had her out today and she did really well. Also, had a partner to help out with things. First three birds she was perfect. Held point, no creep, steady through the flush. Last bird she got on fast and tried to creep in. I walked her off the bird and brought her back around and then she hit point and was steady through the flush. I'm pretty happy with that.

Going to search here for some advice on raising homers. I have a pigeon coop i just built.

[birddogger]

It sounds to me like you and your dog are doing great. We never want a dog to catch a bird but it has probably happened to more of us than will admit it In reality, unless it happens on more than a single bird a couple of times, It is seldom a problem and even if it is a little bit of a set back, it can usually be corrected pretty easily.

Charlie

[doco]

A: Pigeons. They never catch them in a trap. One bird won't kill you, but a few will certainly do some damage. Think about it, if you found change in a few candy machines, you start checking all of them for more. When you stop finding money, you stop checking them. No caught birds, no chasing. Also be careful about shooting birds right now, can cause the same problem. If she is already a natural retriever, leave it alone, plenty of time for that later.

First three birds she was perfect. Held point, no creep, steady through the flush. Last bird she got on fast and tried to creep in.

B: Too many birds. The hardest lesson for me to learn was only 1 - 2 birds each session. Most of the time it is two traps together now. It really sux, but it is effective. Less chance for mistakes. Great for building enthusiasm and confidence, and you usually end up on a good note because the pup does not lose it's intensity. It sux for us (humans) because we want to train as much as we can once we get there. Problem is, we have to keep out our egos's and needs out of the picture and think about the dog. To teach someone 1 +1 = 2 doesn't take an hour lecture to learn and understand the concept and get the answer. It really is simple math.

JMO.

[C.painter]

Correct me if I am wrong, but this example isn't a concern like catching a pointed bird on the ground. The bird flushed and was chased. The bird flew 20 yards, just as if it was flushed and shot and wounded. I think this was a non-event. Probably didn't help steady the dog but didn't make it more likely to want to break point either and catch ground birds. Jmo

[doco]

Think about from the dogs standpoint CP....Why point when I can just bust in, the bird is gonna fall, and I get to retrieve it? It's a heck of a lot more fun to chase and fetch than it is to just stand there. Much more fun to be at a concert than to stand outside in line and wait for hours to get in. It can be a big problem because the bird was not shot at or wounded and if it continues even just a few more times it will be harder and harder to get the dog to hold point.

As she gets further along, mistakes like that can take weeks or months to correct in a young dog. I'm not trying to scare the OP, but, I've been there and done that and it was not on purpose. I would make every possible effort I could to not let that dog ever catch another bird again. I have even watched retrieving set my dogs back. That natural desire to retrieve, if they have it, is way more exciting to a dog than holding point.

[bb560m]

B: Too many birds. The hardest lesson for me to learn was only 1 - 2 birds each session.

When you mean session - is that the whole day - or will you take them out a few times during the day with only 1-2 birds each time?

[Buckeye_V]

I know this was not the original intent of the post, but at what point if any do you plan to transition away from the launchers?

I used to use them, but I don't any more. The popping launchers created too many problems for me. Like, the dog would stop to flush on the pop and not the bird. Or, they would road right in on them when I could not see them. Birds getting hung up in the darned things, etc.

They definitely have their place, but I wouldn't be putting the birds in there every time out.

Purely my opinion, and I don't think you are doing it wrong.

[bb560m]

I know this was not the original intent of the post, but at what point if any do you plan to transition away from the launchers?

Once they're steady and you know they won't grab the bird?

[doco]

Unfortunately BB, that session and only once a day. Always end on a good note and they get taken home to think about it. Like I said, this has been the hardest thing for me to do, but my mentor's success with his dogs and with the luck I've had, I wouldn't do it any other way. Please understand that we train for field trialing, however, STEADINESS is what is important here. I was the one that wanted to train more and he would constantly admonish me....I was the one that was disappointed having to put em away....but it works. BTW I drive 40 miles to work 1 -2 birds when we train, not bad now cause I have 3 pups, but when I only had the one dog...I hated it.

The main purpose of traps is to always be able to control every situation so that bad situations don't occur. I've never had a pigeon get caught up or get caught. We use the electronic ones so that they can't but in on the traps and if they start creeping in....pop the bird and it's game over. No yelling or punishment, the dog caused the bird to fly and you had nothing to do with it, so far as they know. They start realizing that it was their fault, and they learn to back off quickly. We use traps to teach backing, stop to flush, multiple birds, range......they are spectacular tools. We are the weak link that screw things up therefore we need to be the one that is thinking about each situation and each session.

[bb560m]

Unfortunately BB, that session and only once a day. Always end on a good note and they get taken home to think about it. Like I said, this has been the hardest thing for me to do, but my mentor's success with his dogs and with the luck I've had, I wouldn't do it any other way. Please understand that we train for field trialing, however, STEADINESS is what is important here. I was the one that wanted to train more and he would constantly admonish me....I was the one that was disappointed having to put em away....but it works. BTW I drive 40 miles to work 1 -2 birds when we train, not bad now cause I have 3 pups, but when I only had the one dog...I hated it.

The main purpose of traps is to always be able to control every situation so that bad situations don't occur. I've never had a pigeon get caught up or get caught. We use the electronic ones so that they can't but in on the traps and if they start creeping in....pop the bird and it's game over. No yelling or punishment, the dog caused the bird to fly and you had nothing to do with it, so far as they know. They start realizing that it was their fault, and they learn to back off quickly. We use traps to teach backing, stop to flush, multiple birds, range......they are spectacular tools. We are the weak link that screw things up therefore we need to be the one that is thinking about each situation and each session.

How often do you train where they only get 1 a day? I can really only go on weekends and go about 80 miles away... usually do 3 sessions with 2 birds each. Mostly I've been trying to pull him further out by placing the traps at greater distances each time. Don't care about steadiness on flush right now (although I do pop them right away if he moves) - just trying to get him confident that when he goes out far, he finds a bird. He will hopefully be broke at the trainer in a few weeks when he goes away and gets trained every day.

[Buckeye_V]

I used the things and I have some of the best ones out there, but stuff happens and I am not a koolaid drinker.

At some point you have to trust your dog out of site on a bird. Mine are smart enough to figure out that they can road right in on it, creating worse habbits. I prefer to plant the birds and use the traps to fix issues here and there. I guess that was my point. i do not place every bird in a trap every time. I see no need for it.

They are great tools, but they aren't the only tools

[sandhillsgsp]

doco, bb, and buckeye.......good thoughts and good discussion. thanks

[Sharon]

Having read this thread , I get the distinct impression that many get too involved in TEACHING the dog. i don't teach the dog. I provide an environment and opportunities where by the dog can learn himself. Use hard flying pigeons; let the dog chase for "a while". He'll learn he can't catch a bird; he'll start to creep and then point at which time the CC can go on. When alone with a bird , the dog will point even though you are not there yet , because dog has NOt been taught but rather allowed to figure it for himself. My avatar is of a 10 month old runt who has taught himself to hold.

[bigsugar]

Did you shoot your gun when the bird popped?

The reason I asked is if you did then the dog simply thinks he's retrieving a shot bird back to you. No harm no foul. He doesn't know the difference.

[birddogger]

Correct me if I am wrong, but this example isn't a concern like catching a pointed bird on the ground. The bird flushed and was chased. The bird flew 20 yards, just as if it was flushed and shot and wounded. I think this was a non-event. Probably didn't help steady the dog but didn't make it more likely to want to break point either and catch ground birds. Jmo

I agree, it is not as bad for a dog to catch one after it has flushed and landed as it is to catch one in front of a point.

Charlie

[Buckeye_V]

I agree with the last 2 posters. I think you are fine. I would have neither praised the dog or scolded. Just have taken the bird and moved on.

[backwoods]

Did you shoot your gun when the bird popped?

The reason I asked is if you did then the dog simply thinks he's retrieving a shot bird back to you. No harm no foul. He doesn't know the difference.

Agree.

It sounds like the dog stood well while the flusher was flushing. Your right, if the gun was fired didn't the dog do what he should have done? retrieve.

When I am steadying up pups I always let them go in and retrieve a bird or two for a reward for being staunch even though my end goal is to train them to be steady to wing and shot.

[sandhillsgsp]

Unfortunately, couldn't have my shotgun or even cap pistol with me as the fields i was in were near a residential area. But, after thinking about it i agree with the last few posters. The dog almost did everything right. Had i fired a round it would have been a complete sequence. Not too worried about it. Especially after she had a good session yesterday.

[Max&rick]

Sounds like you did ok are you doing field trials or just hunting? Hunting dogs retrieve wounded birds and sometimes very lively ones.