Preserve Work Video - Trouble With Whoa

[dualsetter]

The Ruffie hunting has been pretty tough the last month or so. Jumpy birds have been a challenge for Cedar to pin down, he has developed a tendency to crowd them and when they move he lunges in and flushes. He actually caught two wild fledgling grouse when he was a year old...not good for business. Really need to get him steady. Have tried repeatedley, to no avail, to bring him back to the point of the flush and whoa him. However, he is a soft dog and on occasion I feel I've overhandled him then he gets confused, shuts down and just sits. He's still young, just 2.5 years old but thought he would start to figure it out now, he is staunch on woodcock because they hold so well. He does pin an occasional Grouse down, out of 60 contacts this season he was staunch on 6 or 7 of them. Is it time for a professional trainer or should I do some serious whoa work this year and see how his 3rd season goes? Any help or suggestions would be much appreciated, thanks in advance.

Decided on a local management area with planted Pheasant and Chukkar to try and get a handle on this. Was able to take a couple short video clips, the following is what ensued.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y94VUnqA ... ture=share

[4dabirds]

The dog is pointing the bird nicely. He just needs some work on whoa,pointing a bird he sees and steady to flush. You can work on these things using pigeons in a controlled environment. Keep in mind that in all your training if you are using a command such as whoa the dog needs to respond on the first time you say the command . If the dog does not the command is not trained and you should not use it especially in the presence of a bird.. If you would like pm me ill help you out.

[gonehuntin']

Your dog is NOT steady on point if, when the grouse moves, he jumps in and flushes. First order of business is to steady him on moving birds. Do this in the yard by whoaing him, then throwing clipwings around him, letting them walk around him without the dog moving.

Next, work him on a trap with clipwings. Pop the trap when he points the bird and let it flutter down and walk around, not letting the dog have the bird.

Now he's ready for the field. Keep him steady THROUGH the flush on all birds. I'm guessing you don't do this at all. Later on as he matures, you can let him figure on his own how to work a moving bird or, just continue keeping him steady and work the bird yourself.

Grouse are tough birds, especially these days since they walk and run so much. Some dog's learn, some don't. First comes staunchness though, then the practical experience.

[DonF]

Your dog probably doesn't understand it's his movement and crowding that is moving the bird. Not to hard to fix that but you'll need remote launchers. Set them out with pigeons in them and take him to them. He can drag a check cord but don't hold it. Make sure you know exactly where the bird is and where the air movement is. Then as he come's to the bird and start's to stop, pop the bird. Don't give him a chance to point it. If he's on the up wind side and within ten or so yds, pop the bird. You are then teaching him that he is the cause of the bird moving. He want's the bird, that's why he's doing what he's doing, your job is to show him how to get it. To do that he needs to know that it's his fault the bird is moving. You'll have him standing sooner than you think and he'll let you go to the front. When he does, the first number of times he's gonna either glance at you or start to gather himself to go. Immediately pop the bird when you see it start. Timing is everything here so keep a good eye on him and don't worry about the bird, You know where it is and where the breeze is, you don't need to look for it. Watch your dog!

It is important that you use pigeons here, the young grouse already taught him he could catch them on the ground. A pigeon is not going to go back on the ground, it'll go land in a tree. Unless you have some really good flying pen raised game birds, they might go up and right back down or they might fly off just a little and land. That is to much temptation at this point. You need to let the birds teach him and to do that best you have to have control of the birds.

If you need to work on whoa, go work on it in a seperate place without the birds. When he's really whoaing well, bring him in and whoa him and then drop a dead bird on the ground next to you. He'll try to get to it, nic him and get him stopped. As soon as he's stopped start over. Do not set him back. Your teaching him that the sightg of a dead bird falling means whoa. You do that and each time it's successful, you move the command and the dropping the bird closer together untill you simply eliminate the voice command. Go from there to a live flying bird and start from the begining again. And when your done there, move to a wing clipped and hobbled bird. Hobbled bird is last because it is gonna be the tuffset part. You srat with that one by dropping it behind you. You need to be in the path to stop him. When your done, you'll have taught him whoa with three different visual commands. Dead bird falling, live bird flying and live bird walking on the ground all mean whoa.

[DogNewbie]

Just watched your video and it looks like you're shooting bumped birds. All that is doing is rewarding the dog for bumping the bird in the first place. It may move things along faster if you hold off on grouse until the dog is steady on pigeons. That may make the transition back to grouse a bit smoother. At the very least, stop shooting bumped birds and that can only help.

[bb560m]

pigeons + launchers. Don't give a command if you can't reinforce it and make sure he does it - he is just learning he doesn't have to listen to you.

[mister2]

DualSetter where are you located in Central NY? I am in Liverpool.

[Sharon]

You are making the mistakes that all of us has made at one time or another.

Don't say anything.
Don't shoot bumped birds.
Get things working well in the training yard with pigeons and a CC first.
Very nice looking setter.

* When you do hunt again, for the first while , you handle the dog , someone else shoots. A breaking dog on low flyers can be shot.

[topher40]

The only "problem with whoa" you appear to have is that your dog doesnt know the command. You have received some good advice above, follow it. I know I know, in the yard he does it without flaw, that is different. When you intro the birds to the equation it changes everything.

[mudhunter]

If you have a good pro locally go and show him the dog, looks like a nice dog that needs to learn manners.

[birddogger]

Work Video - Trouble With Whoa

by DogNewbie » Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:44 am

Just watched your video and it looks like you're shooting bumped bird

That is what I thought I saw too. That will just encourage him to break point and flush. I won't add any more than that since good advice has already been given.

Charlie

[dualsetter]

Thanks for all the feedback. Very practical advice, looks like I see some pigeons in my near future. Hopefully I can get this straightend out over the nex couple months. Thanks again!

[no.5 buckshot]

That is no big deal you just need to get the chase out of him after all he's still a pup. Use an e collar around his hind quarters you can use it around his neck as well but I use that for calling or ret. You don't even need a bird find a low stimulation without burning him up but gets his attention. Put him in place on the ground and say whoa. Step away if he stays get farther away. if he comes to you without releasing him hold the stem. button in and set him back where you had him or atleast back alittle way and let off button do this over and over He will get the idle he is on a long range check cord and whoa. just 15min. 1 or 2 times a day. Even if he stays keep doing it till he knows he will be corrected. Do this without birds for a while first then try him on birds like in the video. When and if he bumps the bird bump him another reason why I use the hind quarters with the collars. It will not take two months .

[Benny]

Thanks for all the feedback. Very practical advice, looks like I see some pigeons in my near future. Hopefully I can get this straightend out over the nex couple months. Thanks again!

great looking dog though! Definitely has the drive just needs the focus.

Oh and a serious +1 on DogNewbie and Sharon's comments about bumped birds...I know it's hard to resist

[Roccus]

Dual Setter is your dog a Ryman type? I'm having exactly the same issues with my 18 month old Ryman. Extremely birdy and steady until I approach and then flushes. PM me and I'll give you some insight I've received from other Ryman owners and breeders that may be quite different from the above advice. - Ken