Puppy Selection at 5 Weeks

[the_possum]

I've finally settled on a breed (GWP) and breeder and have reserved a pup from an upcoming litter. The breeder requires pups to be picked at 5 weeks of age. Since this will be my first crack at training a pup firsthand I've been doing plenty of research but most books I'm reading and materials I'm looking at are based on picking out a pup around the 7 week mark.

I'm looking for some good firsthand advice on what I can do (if much of anything) to pick a reliable pup at this early stage. Does most of the advice for a 7-8 week pup translate well to a 5 week pup and iss 5 weeks too early for a pup to be consistenly demonstrating pointing tendencies?

Regards.

[Buckeye_V]

I think 5 weeks is too early, in my opinion - unles syou have observed the litter every day for the last 5 months.

One litter I got to pick the pup 1st and we went up every week and checked them out and we changed our minds a couple times. In the end the dog picked us.

If you don't need conformation or performance for field trials, just pick on gut.

[kbshorthairs]

if you've picked a breeding your like........just pick the one that you think looks best........lots of trainers talk about how fantastic dogs were the left over that no one picked from a litter.

[the_possum]

thanks for the feedback. i was concerned that there may not be much i can look for specifically at that age but if i'm going on my gut it also means i can let the kids come along and have a say in it.

[kninebirddog]

5 weeks old.....JMHO and No offense but I wouldn't consider picking up a pup that early

I like to get my pups after 7 weeks of age or even a little older depending on the breeder and what they are doing with the pups.

At 5 weeks they have only been playing for about 1 1/2 weeks and are still on a strong imprinting curve. If this is your first pup and since there has been such little time for getting a real over all feeling as to temperaments of the pups..watch all the pups and the one that will eagerly follow the more bold pup would be the one I would look to

reason the real bold pup today may be the more independent one but also might turn out to be a little bit more then you will be be ready for on a first pup and at least the other pups are showing once one does something the willingness to follow

That is how I would approach this less then ideal timing of picking up a pup

[the_possum]

I'm not in a huge hurry. I've been waiting a fair amount of time to pull the trigger on a pup and i don't mind putting it off a bit longer. i like the breeder and i like the line but this dog is going to be for hunting first and foremost. i don't want to do this half-***.

in your collective opinions, is a five-week old picking time a big enough issue to look for a different breeder?

no offense will be taken. i'm still learning here and want to make sure i'm covering all my bases.

[ACooper]

The breeder is requiring you to select your pup at 5 weeks... or they require you to take your pup home at 5 weeks? Both?

[the_possum]

selection at 5 weeks. pup comes home at 8 weeks.

and also worth noting probably that this breeder is a fair distance so i won't be able to spend much, if any time, with the pup between picking out and taking home.

[kninebirddog]

OK

I would have breeder help you pick out the middle of the pack pup ..one willing to allow another to be lead dog which is easier for the breeder then you as you will only be seeing the litter for a little window where the breeder gets to see the pups every day and observe them through the play more awake and more sleep time habits that the pups are developing

[Buckeye_V]

A good breeder should help you make your decision. If they balk - walk.

[Sharon]

5 weeks old.....JMHO and No offense but I wouldn't consider picking up a pup that early

I like to get my pups after 7 weeks of age or even a little older depending on the breeder and what they are doing with the pups.

At 5 weeks they have only been playing for about 1 1/2 weeks and are still on a strong imprinting curve. If this is your first pup and since there has been such little time for getting a real over all feeling as to temperaments of the pups..watch all the pups and the one that will eagerly follow the more bold pup would be the one I would look to

reason the real bold pup today may be the more independent one but also might turn out to be a little bit more then you will be be ready for on a first pup and at least the other pups are showing once one does something the willingness to follow

That is how I would approach this less then ideal timing of picking up a pup

Exactly. Well said.

At 7-8 weeks I can tell which pup is not as confident/hesitant ) not the pup i want), and which are full of confidence. 5 weeks wouldn't tell me that.

[AHGSP]

if you've picked a breeding your like........just pick the one that you think looks best........lots of trainers talk about how fantastic dogs were the left over that no one picked from a litter.

DITTO! You've picked your Breeder/Litter; pick the one you like the looks of, or that picks you, or tell the Breeder what you want and let them guide you based on what they've been observing over the 5 weeks.

[RoostersMom]

I'd be totally unpopular, I almost always think it's a good thing if the breeder picks the pup that best fits your needs. IF you have done your research and it's a good, reputable breeder. If they lived a long way off, I wouldn't make the trip to "pick" a puppy at 5 weeks old. You really can't tell anything at that age. If you're stuck with that scenario, then I'd save the gas money and just let him pick one for you. Likely the pups will change a lot in the next 3 weeks! If you've picked a good litter, then it really shouldn't matter which one you get and the breeder will have a stronger idea of what pup might fit you - though I'm not so sure he has a good idea at 5 weeks either. The breeders I've bought from have waited until 8 weeks to select homes for the puppies. It will be much easier to pick at that age.

IMO, there is not one benefit to letting folks pick puppies at this age. Too young to tell anything at all.

[rinker]

I don't think that you can tell anything about a pup at 5 weeks, and very little at 8 weeks. I have kept and raised litter mates several times and I don't think that my early favorite has ever turned out to be the best one. Maybe someone can do a better job than I can picking them out.

[DonF]

I'm in the boat of ya can't tell squat at 8 weeks much less five. Tell you how I picked out Squirt and Bodie. I told the breeder I wanted males. Predominately white with orange head an light ticing was al right. That's exactly what I got. Squirt was a little laid back, still is untill he's turned loose and then he'll go with most any dog. Squirt was the left over in his litter but the breeder said I'd have got him anyway. There's always a chance of getting a pup not quite up to it but don't dwell on that. Nobody can tell for sure at that age. Biggest thing I'd insist on, even if I had to pay for it is a first puppy shot at 6 weeks and the next at 8 weeks. Then give another at 12 weeks and last one at 16 weeks. The imunity the pup's get from their mother starts getting short at about 6 weeks and the shot itself is only about $5, cheap insurance.

[Sharon]

I don't think that you can tell anything about a pup at 5 weeks, and very little at 8 weeks. I have kept and raised litter mates several times and I don't think that my early favorite has ever turned out to be the best one. Maybe someone can do a better job than I can picking them out.

If you have been watching the pups from 6-8 weeks you can sure tell who is going to be a big bruiser and who is going to be on the smaller side. I think you can also tell which pup is bold/confident all the way down to that shy / fearful pup.

[cjhills]

If you are happy and confident with the breeder let him pick. or pick from pictures .It is a waste of time and gas at five weeks. We pick for most of or buyers
WE pick for most of our buyersand we have many puppies we buy picked by the breeder and with pictures. J

[Doodle]

Wow I think I would find it hard to choose at 5 wks.. I would want to feel very comfortable with this breeder. I would want them to know what I want to do with the dog and if I am a first timer or a somewhat experienced handler. If I am going to pick at 5 wks, I am going to ask EVERYTHING. If I am a first timer I am probably looking for something that is "mid-pack" and adapts well to all new situations. If your gut tells you it is right it very well may be a good match. If something seems wrong it very well may be. I am blessed right now, the breeder picked my last one and if I couldn't physically get there I would trust them or a couple of others that I run with to pick for me. Best of luck on your adventure. I have never seen a perfect dog but I have seen alot of excellent dogs. There have been plenty of good postings on this board on how to help your pup when you bring it home. I would refer anyone to those postings before they bring the pup home. Many breeders will make themselves available for reasonable questions even after the pup goes home.

[rinker]

I heard something a long time ago that I have always agreed with. I don't remember the exact quote but it was something like "if you look at a litter of pups and there is one that you clearly don't want, then you don't want any of them."

[hi-tailyn]

5 weeks is when the pups are just starting to show personalities. You will have a couple that are bold and fearless and some that just hang around and show no interest in exploring his environment. The next week some will change, then the next week the personality make change 180 degrees.

Find the breeding you like and a breeder you trust helping you choose. Then pick what looks good to you. The genetics are there the rest is up to you to develop and let grow.

Good luck.

[dakotashooter2]

I don't think that you can tell anything about a pup at 5 weeks, and very little at 8 weeks. I have kept and raised litter mates several times and I don't think that my early favorite has ever turned out to be the best one. Maybe someone can do a better job than I can picking them out.

If you have been watching the pups from 6-8 weeks you can sure tell who is going to be a big bruiser and who is going to be on the smaller side. I think you can also tell which pup is bold/confident all the way down to that shy / fearful pup.

Not necessarily. I have had 2 female springers. One came from parents that ran about 45-50lbs the other from the female that was about 40# and a male that was about #55. Both were average in size compared to the littermates. Both ended up being a healthy 60#-65#... My first one was the boldest pup in the litter and stayed that way. The second spent most of it's time away from the litter (I interpreted that as independence) and ended up just as bold as the first one.

The one I'm picking up next week is a male on the smaller side of the litter, and not the most outgoing but I'm not worried.

[Trekmoor]

I have only once been asked to choose a pup at 5 weeks. For want of any better method I had the breeder separate the dogs from the bitches (I wanted a bitch.) I then took the bitch pups ,one after another and rolled a bit of knotted white cloth along the floor in front of them. I chose a pup that toddled out and grabbed it twice in a row.

I don't really know if this proved very much except maybe an early developing "prey" instinct but I did get a good pup that later won a few field trials.

Bill T.

[Winglish]

If you have been watching the pups from 6-8 weeks you can sure tell who is going to be a big bruiser and who is going to be on the smaller side. I think you can also tell which pup is bold/confident all the way down to that shy / fearful pup.

Funny story- On my last litter the guy with the second pick wanted the largest male in the litter. At 8 weeks he chose a male who dwarfed his litter mates and whose paws were just huge compared to the other pups! Now that the pups are a year old, that pup who was once a giant is now a shrimp. He is the smallest of the four males in the litter.

Why can this happen?

Multiple ties. Some pups are conceived sooner than others and will thus be bigger in the beginning. My dogs had ties 9 days apart. My theory is that the big male pup was conceived nine days before some of his litter mates. It's logical that he was bigger than them.

I do agree that personality traits can often be determined, particularly the most noisy pups.

[hi-tailyn]

Multiple ties. Some pups are conceived sooner than others and will thus be bigger in the beginning. My dogs had ties 9 days apart. My theory is that the big male pup was conceived nine days before some of his litter mates. It's logical that he was bigger than them.

The size of pups is determined by where they are in the uterus. Those with best location and best food supply are bigger. Eggs that attached in poor locations, like areas with scar tissue from previous litters and such will be smaller.

The eggs after they are ovulated, take 48 hours to become ripe and able to be fertilized by the sperm.
The eggs are only viable for another 48 hours for the sperm to fertilize them. Thus there is only a 48 hour window for fertilization. The most a pup can be older or younger than its littermates is 48 hours. it does not depend on when or how long between breedings.
Ask any serious breeder or repro. vet and they will restate the same.

Size of adult dogs is genetics. You can have two smaller parents and when a pup grows up it is larger than both parents. You can have larger parents and they can have a smaller adult pup. Most often you will be consistent with what the parents are.

[Winglish]

The eggs after they are ovulated, take 48 hours to become ripe and able to be fertilized by the sperm.
The eggs are only viable for another 48 hours for the sperm to fertilize them. Thus there is only a 48 hour window for fertilization. The most a pup can be older or younger than its littermates is 48 hours. it does not depend on when or how long between breedings.
Ask any serious breeder or repro. vet and they will restate the same.

Well, there goes my theory. I did some research and found that you are correct. Dogs are definitely different than other animals in this regard. From Royal Canin's research library:

"Breeding management is a key contributor to litter size, and luckily, one in which we can exercise a great degree of control. The canine species is very unique in that the ovulated eggs are not immediately capable of fertilization. An additional 48 hours is needed until the ova are mature enough for fertilization. If a bitch is bred too early, by the time the ova is mature and ready for fertilization, the sperm have died off or are too old to achieve fertilization. Likewise, if the bitch is bred too late, the sperm will be very viable, but the ova are too damaged, too old, to accept the sperm. So this tells us that our best bet to get larger litters is to know as accurately as possible when ovulation occurs. Tools that can aid in this include the bitch’s behavior, vaginal cytology, and hormone assays of progesterone and luteinizing hormone (LH). The use of progesterone and LH assays can also tell us if the bitch is having an anovulatory estrous cycle. "