Training not to creep

[cstokes/southeast,ks]

After reading several posts about teaching a dog not to creep, the general consumption seems to be that as soon as the dog creeps, the bird should be launched. I gathered the theory of this is to teach the dog that if he moves to soon the bird will flush to early. I am having a hard time finding the logic in this. From the little experience I have, I’m not sure I want to follow this regimen.

Launching the bird when the dog takes a step forward, or not being staunch enough for the handler’s desire seems to be rewarding the dog. Ultimately the dog is hunting; he is bird crazy and cannot wait to find one. So one would think after repeated times of doing this the dog is going to learn that to fastest way he/she is going to get to chase the bird/ birds is to creep on it, so that it releases/flushes. To me it would be more logical to reward the dog by flushing/launching the bird when he/she does right by holding point.

I am no professional by any means. I am not criticizing anybody’s training methods because it is obvious many have had great success using this method. Although I am questing it, in regards to hear the reasoning in order to better my training methods and my dog’s performance.

Thanks in advance

[RayGubernat]

If you want the dog to not creep, there has to be a negative consequence for the dog. You are right on that score.

If you have the dog on a checkcord and when the bird is flushed, the dog is NOT allowed to chase. I think you can see where this is a negative outcome for the dog. Getting stopped cold by the checkcord is a pretty straightforward negative consequence.

Now, if you want your dog to be staunch only, which means to me that you allow the dog to break point and chase once the bird has taken flight... I understand your confusion. The negative outcome is not immediately apparent.

To understand the negative consequence for the staunch(not steady to wing and shot) hunting dog, you have to dig a little deeper. If a dog is used to having birds killed over its points and then getting to retrieve those birds, wrapping its gums around that deadbird is the dog's ultimate reward. If the dog takes a step and the bird flies away with no shot...that is a negative consequence. No shot... no bird in mouth. no joy.

If you call the dog back to the spot of the infraction, set it up on point once again and make it stand ther for about five full minutes...that is another big negative consequence. Dog must stand and not move. No running, no hunting, no possibilty of finding another bird...no joy.

That is why it is not the best idea to shoot at birds your young dog does not handle properly.

A dog ain't stupid. If it takes a step and you don't shoot, but instead make it stand there while you stare at him with your arms folded...they will know you are not a happy camper. They will know that somehow... they messed up. Thye might not be real sure just what they did to mess up, but with repetition, the truth will reveal itself to the dog. If you have an e-collar on the dog's flank and you nick it when it takes that step and all the other negative things come to pass... the dog will probably put it together far faster.

The straightforwardness of working with a young dog and getting it steady to wing and shot is why, I believe, a lot of trainers go that way.

Once the dog understands that it is not to move once it has established point, you can, over time, let it slip to not moving until the bird takes flight(staunch) and the dog should stay solid on point for as long as it takes for you to get there. When it does not...you know that the dog is flipping you the bird and then you can discipline for failure to do what it knows, without question, is its proper job.

Hope some of that makes sense to you.

RayG

[MTR]

you also work on taking away the chase - by working on steady to flush. All Check chord work. The dog takes the step, the bird is popped/launched/ dog can not chase due to check chord and therefore is not rewarded with a bird. Just how I was taught. makes sense to me

[cstokes/southeast,ks]

Yes, I agree that it is logical practice providing the dog is on a check cord and not allowed to chase.

[SetterNut]

The training process for a dog is a series of steps.

One thing that is not always obvious is that much of the training is not about pointing birds. The dogs will decent breeding and a little age / experience will point. What you spend most of your training time on is things other than pointing. The pointing is the easy part. Taking the case out of the dog, steady to wing, shot and fall, stop to flush, are the manors around birds that take more training, and are the sign of a top tier bird dog. There are lots of good bird dogs that people hunt over that never reach those levels of manors, but hunting over a dog that is finished is a special treat.

[ultracarry]

I'm with the op. Still doesn't sound right. Maybe that's how dogs start to flag? Thinking about the bird and what's going to happen any second. Trading an easy fix for a hard one.

[DonF]

For myself, the best and fastest way to stop creeping IS to launch a bird at any movement of the dog. If the dog takes a step and then you launch, your timing is off. You must watch the dog closely for any movement. The dog shift's it's eyes to look at me coming in, I launch the bird. The idea that there must be negative consequences for the act doesn't hold water. Even when I check corded them into birds, I never let them hit the end of the cord, I got to the dog, held it's collar with one hand and had the other over it's back and under it. I had someone else put the bird up and if there was any movment from the dog I'd just pick it up quickly from the collar and then the belly and set it right back down. Just rock it gently.

I don't believe that returning the dog to the scene of the crime works either. Once you have the dog stopped it has at that point, obeyed the command. What you do is go take the dog back to where it started believeing the dog then gets the idea of what it did wrong. To do that, I'd have to give a dog the ability to reason, I don't believe they do. Once the command has been obeyed, even if not when you orgionally planned, the dog has obeyed the command and excersize is over. Returning to the scene of the crime only makes you feel better, the dog doesn't get a thing from it. If you have a remote try it. You must watch the dog closely and pop at the first movement of any kind from the dog. Pay attention to timing! I might add, think of this like a dog. It takes that one step and then the bird goes, why? As opposed to it doesn't go anywhere but moves it's body just a bit and as that happens the bird leaves town. Then it was the movement that moved the bird.

[4dabirds]

Teach the dog the whoa command using a barrel ,transition to a place board then the ground, generalize the command and proof the command under distraction. Once the dog is proofed on the command add a launched bird to the barrel drill. With the dog chained to the ground to assure there will be no chase and no scent from the bird have the dog jump on barrel and launch the bird. The bird becomes the reward. The dog hits the barrel expecting the bird. Since dogs learn by association getting on the barrel produces the reward. This allows the dog to understand that standing still produces the bird. Transition this to the place board then the ground launching the bird when the dog whoas. In the future when the dog is hunting and it goes on point the dog will understand the whoa command as it relates to a bird. If the dog fully understands the whoa command and the dog takes a step he will understand that the jerk on the check-cord was for moving not for finding the bird. If you correct for the movement with a check-cord or a collar with out training the command you can not be sure that the association will be the one you expect. This can lead to blinking or flagging. Once all of this is in place when the dog goes on point he is rewarded for staying with a bird then multiple birds are added at different timing to keep the dog steady after the bird flushes. If the dog is always expecting the reward of another bird he will stay put. Varying the timing and number of birds is important to keep the dog always guessing when the drill is going to end. So in this method the launched bird is the reward not the punishment. Which do you think the dog would respond to better?

[Sharon]

How you train is based on your philosophy of "how do dogs learn"

When it comes to holding a point, You can't teach much. What you can do is provide a setting where the dog can learn. Similar to teaching a child to read. You can't teach a child to read. You can provide the environment ( time , books , encouragement) for a child to learn.This is how many children learn to read on their own.You don't need a teacher;you need a facilitator.
I like my dogs to learn that chasing and creeping will not get them what they want. That requires different strategies than "teaching a dog not to creep."

[gonehuntin']

For myself, the best and fastest way to stop creeping IS to launch a bird at any movement of the dog. If the dog takes a step and then you launch, your timing is off. You must watch the dog closely for any movement. The dog shift's it's eyes to look at me coming in, I launch the bird. The idea that there must be negative consequences for the act doesn't hold water. Even when I check corded them into birds, I never let them hit the end of the cord, I got to the dog, held it's collar with one hand and had the other over it's back and under it. I had someone else put the bird up and if there was any movment from the dog I'd just pick it up quickly from the collar and then the belly and set it right back down. Just rock it gently.

I don't believe that returning the dog to the scene of the crime works either. Once you have the dog stopped it has at that point, obeyed the command. What you do is go take the dog back to where it started believeing the dog then gets the idea of what it did wrong. To do that, I'd have to give a dog the ability to reason, I don't believe they do. Once the command has been obeyed, even if not when you orgionally planned, the dog has obeyed the command and excersize is over. Returning to the scene of the crime only makes you feel better, the dog doesn't get a thing from it. If you have a remote try it. You must watch the dog closely and pop at the first movement of any kind from the dog. Pay attention to timing! I might add, think of this like a dog. It takes that one step and then the bird goes, why? As opposed to it doesn't go anywhere but moves it's body just a bit and as that happens the bird leaves town. Then it was the movement that moved the bird.

+1. Nice post Don.

[4dabirds]

How you train is based on your philosophy of "how do dogs learn"

When it comes to holding a point, Yo

Assuming that you are talking about my post I just have to say I am flattered . That is the nicest thing any one has said to me on G.DF.. I only wish that I was smart enough to come up with the science of how dogs learn. I do not see any reason that taking the way dogs learn and applying it to a training method is problematic. I just see it as simple , dogs seek reward . If the one thing they covet most " birds", is used in training, as reward for behaviors that are wanted , those behaviors are likely to be repeated. While correction has its place in training it should only be used when the dog is fully trained in the wanted behavior. While I understand that the loss of the bird is a correction to the dog at the moment of infraction and can be effective , this limits your ability to use the bird as reward as well as risking the misunderstanding to the dog that if it takes a step it produces the sight of the bird . For the dog this is rewarding and now will lead to a correction for moving which will only make the dog apprehensive. If the dog is not fully trained on the behavior you are only assuming that the dog has made the association that you expect. I also understand that a lot of people allow the dog to retrieve birds before the dog is steady thus assuming that the only reward the dog sees in the bird is having one in its mouth. I think this idea is flawed . First off if the dog is allowed to retrieve before it is steady it will it will result in having to put to much pressure on the dog during the process of breaking.Same goes for allowing a dog to chase birds for its first year. It has seen the birds flying off and may feel rewarded for chasing. If the dog only sees the bird fly while standing still, this will be enough reward which will allow you to train behaviors such as steady to wing and shot without putting pressure on the dog, which in turn will allow you to train these behaviors at a younger age. This may be a philosophy , it certainly is not mine to claim but thanks again for the compliment.