How to deter pup from sitting while on point

[Graves14]

My DD is about 5 months old and has started to sit while on point. I know it might not be the biggest deal even but is there a way to dissuade him from doing this?

Thanks,
Pat

[RoostersMom]

If you taught him to "sit" on command - that is the culprit. Teach him "whoa" now and use that in all cases instead of "sit." I had an EP that did the same thing - she grew out of it, but I'm judicious in teaching "whoa" more than "sit" now with a new pup. Trouble is everyone wants the pup to "sit" so it reverts back to the training when put under any kind of pressure. Just keep standing him up and try to stop using "sit" in your training with him.

[JIM K]

i read a lot is what roosterm said happens.
i dont think i am going to train my pup to sit also.

[doco]

Sit only applies to my children in my house. None of my dogs have ever been taught to sit. If they sit when I bring them in from outside and they're told to whoa, I grab them by the skin of their arse and pull em up. Whoa means stand and "don't" move! It won't take long.

[wems2371]

I'm not 100% versed in the VJP, HZP, and VGP testing system...but I am thinking that if you're going to test your DD, sit is a must and part of manner of retrieve score and such. So you many not be able to get around not teaching or using it eventually. To me, it's a huge deal and I don't want to ever see my dogs sit on point. It ruins a pretty picture, and is why I don't bother with teaching sit, because it's not worth it to me. But then it's not a requirement in the tests I run either.

I remember the Perfect Start/Perfect Finish DVDs addressing a dog that sat on point. I can't remember if they just put a half hitch or flank collar on and lifted it back up, I'd have to go rewatch.

[jczv]

Above and beyond all the don't teach the pup to sit advice, what the dog appears to be indicating is that you may be using to much pressure around birds (that may just be too much yapping, commands etc.). While the dog is 'sitting on point' with birds involved I personally wouldn't use doco's advice, I would very carefully slide my foot under the dog and very slowly and carefully lift the dogs rump back up. Don't say a thing. If your not around birds and you want to discourage the dog from sitting pulling him up by his butt skin should be OK.

JMO

[doco]

If your not around birds and you want to discourage the dog from sitting pulling him up by his butt skin should be OK.

My bad for not clarifying! I only do that in the house. I've never had a dog sit on point and certainly wouldn't be part of the discipline while on a bird with a young dog. I agree with the yapping and gently lifting. If you're using traps, I would immediately fly the bird at the first indication that he begins to move. He should start getting the idea that it is his fault for the bird leaving. Then you could possible transition to an e-collar as a belly band and that will jack up his back end.

[4dabirds]

When a dog is confused it will revert back to what it knows best or learned last. If sit is the dogs best command it will do it as a default to the command that is new being given. It is offering the rewardable behavior. Too much pressure on the dog will make this more prevalent. Make whoa the best and most rewarded behavior.

[Sharon]

This may have nothing to do with your situation , but a dog will sit when it is unsure of what it should be doing/worried about getting in trouble. Sitting is a safe act.
If he's 5 months old don't be putting too much pressure on him to perform. If you are ( not saying you are) pup will think of other ways to avoid conflict like blinking etc.

PS Just read for da bird's post. We agree

[DonF]

I've never worked with a DD or Wirehair but I have read where they can be a bit slow to mature. If that's true, it sounds like you should not be putting him on birds yet, happy time with him. Let him chase "bleep" birds and if there is wild game bird's around, so much the better. Sounds like he smells the birds but has no idea what to do with it.

[cmc274]

Provideded there are no other maturity / pressure issues, Put your boot under him and tap him real gently on the shins / knees, he'll stand. He'll eventually figure out what you want, no need to get crazy or excited or try to fix it tomorrow.

[tnbndr]

Not teaching the dog to sit is great advice if you only use the dog for hunting and it is a kennel dog. I like to do other things with my dogs, pet therapy, obedience, dock jumping etc, and some of those disciplines require the dog to sit as part of the training or certification testing.
My first GSP which I acquired at 3 years of age was never trained to sit and had no idea what the command meant. I had to teach her and she never sits while on point or during training. My other GSP acquired at 4 years of age was trained to sit and she was a kennel dog. She also never sits while on point or during training.
I do believe in the statement of making "whoa" the command to reinforce and reward. I am working on that.

[birddogger]

I don't know if you are saying anything or talking to him when he is on point, but I would advise not saying anything to him when around birds. Other than that, I don't think I would worry too much about it at 5 mos. He is just a baby.......Let him have fun and grow up a little until he is ready for training. JMO.

Charlie

[birddogger]

Not teaching the dog to sit is great advice if you only use the dog for hunting and it is a kennel dog. I like to do other things with my dogs, pet therapy, obedience, dock jumping etc, and some of those disciplines require the dog to sit as part of the training or certification testing.
My first GSP which I acquired at 3 years of age was never trained to sit and had no idea what the command meant. I had to teach her and she never sits while on point or during training. My other GSP acquired at 4 years of age was trained to sit and she was a kennel dog. She also never sits while on point or during training.
I do believe in the statement of making "whoa" the command to reinforce and reward. I am working on that.

A lot of times, there is never a problem with a pointing dog being taught to sit, but if it is the last command taught, there should never be a problem.

Charlie

[4dabirds]

Not teaching the dog to sit is great advice if you only use the dog for hunting and it is a kennel dog. I like to do other things with my dogs, pet therapy, obedience, dock jumping etc, and some of those disciplines require the dog to sit as part of the training or certification testing.
My first GSP which I acquired at 3 years of age was never trained to sit and had no idea what the command meant. I had to teach her and she never sits while on point or during training. My other GSP acquired at 4 years of age was trained to sit and she was a kennel dog. She also never sits while on point or during training.
I do believe in the statement of making "whoa" the command to reinforce and reward. I am working on that.

Try using a hand signal for sit, a more definitive cue for the dog will help differentiate the commands. Since the dog will be in close proximity to you when you want the dog to sit the hand signal is easy,for whoa use a verbal command or whistle. If the dog understands the verbal command for sit just use the hand signal first then the command over time the dog will learn to anticipate the verbal and will respond to the hand signal. As you diminish the verbal you will notice over time the response to it will diminish as well. If you need to you can use both, you just need to give the dog a reminder once in a while.

[gonehuntin']

A lot of times, there is never a problem with a pointing dog being taught to sit, but if it is the last command taught, there should never be a problem.

Charlie

That's as good a summation as you'll see.

[Graves14]

Thanks for all the advice guys,

Gus lives in the house with us and goes just about everywhere with me so "SIT" is really a requirement for our lifestyle.

That being said, he has never sat on point the few times I've had him scenting planted pigeons but he has recently started doing it when he points "tweety birds" or squirrels. My worry was more that the behavior would translate into all points later on.

For now i think im going to let it slide on other game and see how he reacts next week when i get him a few more birds.

Thanks again all

[gonehuntin']

I've seen and trained dog's that sat on point including on clip pigeons. I, personally, have never had nor seen a dog that sat on a wild bird. You'd have to use an awful lot of pressure on a dog to make them do that.

[4dabirds]

I've seen and trained dog's that sat on point including on clip pigeons. I, personally, have never had nor seen a dog that sat on a wild bird. You'd have to use an awful lot of pressure on a dog to make them do that.

You have a great point here ,but if the dog has had a lot of work as in the avatar using live birds it may just be he is getting confused. Maybe a bit of both.

[zigzag]

I let the Wife and kids teach SIT. Ruger has never heard that command from me and never will. But he does sit on command.

[Trekmoor]

I have never had to correct the problem of a dog sitting on point , my dogs just don't do that. I say nothing if a pup goes on point. I just try to reach it before it decides to flush. I then touch/praise the dog as it stands on point. I don't even teach my dogs to "Whoa!" the birds do that for me. I train sit from a very early age but because I never use it in any kind of pointing situation my dogs don't sit in those situations. Only after the birds have flown do I expect my dogs to sit and I train them to do that by making the birds flushing the sit command in it's own right .
When sit to shot and sit to fall of game are added to this I end up with a dog that doesn't sit on point but which has had 3 commands to be steady to a flushed and shot bird without me saying a word or blowing a whistle. ..... The flush means "sit"..... the shot means "sit" and the bird falling means "sit." I still have both my voice and the whistle as back up but if trained properly the dogs never need either of those.

Sorry, I've rambled on a bit ! It happens when you get older ! :roll:

Bill T.

[ultracarry]

My dog goes to work with me every day, lives in the house, sleeps on the couch etc and sit is not a part of the plan. If you teach the dog to stop using whoa or any other command you won't sit this cross over in the field.

When the dog sits in the house you probably say "good boy" or the wife gives it a treat.... Then when your in the field he wants to make you happy and sits because he knows in the past it made you happy.

You have found the origin of the problem now its up to you to fix it. Plenty of advice was given. Rationalizing an issues Is a sure fire way to not fix it. In your post above you rationalized it.

[goldenpatch29]

When a dog is confused it will revert back to what it knows best or learned last. If sit is the dogs best command it will do it as a default to the command that is new being given. It is offering the rewardable behavior. Too much pressure on the dog will make this more prevalent. Make whoa the best and most rewarded behavior.

4dabirds is exactly correct....I have also found that too much pressure on a dog can cause them to revert back to sitting or laying down. I am guilty myself for putting too much pressure on my lil pup and he did the same thing.

[mountaindogs]

When a dog is confused it will revert back to what it knows best or learned last. If sit is the dogs best command it will do it as a default to the command that is new being given. It is offering the rewardable behavior. Too much pressure on the dog will make this more prevalent. Make whoa the best and most rewarded behavior.

Amen. Time training whoa is like 80% and sit 20% in my house. Also if the dog offers a sit without being asked then I will cue a stand and quickly require whoa before the treat. Meaning if you dog know sit, it should know how to stand up out of sit on command so you immediately drill the whoa, all of that is house work though. On birds if you puppy is sitting it is either bored (work on building drive) or worried/trying to please you (quit interacting with the puppy on birds) back off and watch with your mouth shut. Go ahead and let them bump that bird up. Its too young to worry about steady!

[doco]

Also, lie down, roll over or belly rubbing, NEVER, even in the house. Wife and all 4 kids are on board. We love them up 24/7. All 5 are in the house 24/7, they get their lovin from 6 people nonstop. We just don't teach or reinforce submissive postions. JMO It certainly works for us.

[4dabirds]

Also, lie down, roll over or belly rubbing, NEVER, even in the house. Wife and all 4 kids are on board. We love them up 24/7. All 5 are in the house 24/7, they get their lovin from 6 people nonstop. We just don't teach or reinforce submissive postions. JMO It certainly works for us.

I would not consider any of these positions submissive in the absence of the dog performing them in the presence of a threat from say another dog or threat of correction . If a dog is being trained on a behavior using reward the behavior is not submissive the dog is complying for the reward. The dog being motivated only to please itself is doing just that .

When the dog sits in the house you probably say "good boy" or the wife gives it a treat.... Then when your in the field he wants to make you happy and sits because he knows in the past it made you happy.

I would disagree with this as well the dog only is looking for reward it has nothing to do with you being happy . He sits because it is the rewardable behavior. Diminish the reward and the behavior will go away and then you would be even happier!!

[ultracarry]

So when you buy a puppy you give treats and praise for negative behavior? Interesting motive. What do you accomplish?

[orbirdhunter]

He is 5 months old, and he is sitting while pointing on squirrels and tweety birds........i would not be too worried about it. lets see what he does on pigeons or game birds......My guess is that he will be alot more interested,intense and sitting won't come into play. And don't worry all that much about teaching your DD to sit. It will probably make your whoa training take a little longer then if you haven't but its not going to be the end of the world, and in the DD world i have never seen it translate over to game.
He's still a very young puppy....

[SHORTFAT]

My dog knows both sit and whoa. Keep them seperate. Whoa is worked on first on the training table or barrel, and on a mat at the back door.
Sit is for a treat or when we meet someone while out walking and I don't want the dog to act like an idiot. My dog sat on a couple of planted birds and I gently reached my hand under her butt and lifted it up while softly saying "whoa" and stroked her tail like I do when she is on the table... They will pick it up as they mature... Good luck, and put up some pictures of the pup!

[doco]

doco wrote:
Also, lie down, roll over or belly rubbing, NEVER, even in the house. Wife and all 4 kids are on board. We love them up 24/7. All 5 are in the house 24/7, they get their lovin from 6 people nonstop. We just don't teach or reinforce submissive postions. JMO It certainly works for us.
I would not consider any of these positions submissive in the absence of the dog performing them in the presence of a threat from say another dog or threat of correction . If a dog is being trained on a behavior using reward the behavior is not submissive the dog is complying for the reward. The dog being motivated only to please itself is doing just that .

IMO they are all submissive, appologetic, and I'm sorry please love me positions if they are rewarded that way and they resort to them during correction. They do want to naturally please us. As stated by many, they can resort to a pleasingly learned behavior to gain our affection instead of correction. It is their way of saying "Sorry Boss, how bout this". I want them to gain my approval by standing their birds through flush and shot, honoring, handling, etc.

I want them to accept correction for failing the task at hand, not give me some smokescreen. If sitting, rolling over, belly scratching becomes their reaction, then they are not thinking about what just happened and they are trying avoid the forthcoming correction. I don't want it to sound like it is harsh correction, I just don't want to have to make two corrections. Especially if one has absolutely nothing to do with the other. Therefore I don't teach it. I'm not criticizing anyone's decision of what to teach to their dog, I just know what works for us.

As for the original poster, you know your dog, you know what you want from your dog and you have had a lot of scenarios painted for you on this thread. That's the great part about this forum. We all have different theories and reasons for doing what and why we do what we do. Read every single one and figure out which is best for your situation. My mentor in life always told me to be a parasite, listen to everything and decide which works best for you. Good luck.

[4dabirds]

[quote="doco"]IMO they are all submissive, appologetic, and I'm sorry please love me positions if they are rewarded that way and they resort to them during correction. They do want to naturally please us. As stated by many, they can resort to a pleasingly learned behavior to gain our affection instead of correction. It is their way of saying "Sorry Boss, how bout this". I want them to gain my approval by standing their birds through flush and shot, honoring, handling, etc.

I want them to accept correction for failing the task at hand, not give me some smokescreen. If sitting, rolling over, belly scratching becomes their reaction, then they are not thinking about what just happened and they are trying avoid the forthcoming correction. I don't want it to sound like it is harsh correction, I just don't want to have to make two corrections. Especially if one has absolutely nothing to do with the other. Therefore I don't teach it. I'm not criticizing anyone's decision of what to teach to their dog, I just know what works for us.

Im not trying to be disrespectful to your opinion, but what you are saying is that dogs have a sense of morality and can reason like human beings. I have a hard time buying that.

[ultracarry]

Interesting question. They know exactly what's going on and can probably read you and I better than we can control what we are sending them.

That dog can not communicate like you or I do and has to rely more on its senses to read you and try to do what you want it to do. It can tell the second you open the door of your happy or mad. It's simple stuff. That's why some of us go about problems a different way. Not saying most people are wrong but it depends on the dog and your relationship with the dog.

[Francois P vd Walt]

Many opinions and training styles !

A dog that knows there are birds and is serious will not sit, they sit when the handler runs in and they think they did something wrong. Sit, whoa or wharever command you choose a pointer (gundog) does need brakes, and has to learn to hunt for his handler on not for himself.

We often want to much to early they will grow into their own pointing style if taught the basics let the kids play, we all get a chance to work one day !

[birddogger]

Many opinions and training styles !

A dog that knows there are birds and is serious will not sit, they sit when the handler runs in and they think they did something wrong. Sit, whoa or wharever command you choose a pointer (gundog) does need brakes, and has to learn to hunt for his handler on not for himself.

We often want to much to early they will grow into their own pointing style if taught the basics let the kids play, we all get a chance to work one day !

Nice post.

Charlie