Do dogs have a sense of Morality

4dabirds · Post by **4dabirds** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:10 pm

Are dogs moral. Can they reason. Do they understand the difference between right and wrong.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:27 pm

No. Not from an abstract standpoint. No.

Post by **Sharon** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:33 pm

4dabirds wrote:Are dogs moral. Can they reason. Do they understand the difference between right and wrong.

Isome ways but not in all ways. Their "morality " is not based on religious beliefs, but:

• Dogs have a sense of fair play. They dislike cheaters. They experience joy in play. They delight in friends. The big guys handicap themselves in games with little guys.

• Dogs get jealous when a rival gets more or better treats or treatment. They are resentful, unnerved or saddened by unfair behavior.

• They are made anxious by suspense. They get afraid.

• They are embarrassed when they mess up or do something clumsy.

• They feel remorse or regret when they do something wrong. They remember the bad things done to them but sometimes choose to forgive.

• Dogs have affection and compassion for their animal and human friends and family. They defend loved ones. They grieve their losses. quote

Ralph Ford · Post by **Ralph Ford** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:43 pm

Sharon wrote:
4dabirds wrote:Are dogs moral. Can they reason. Do they understand the difference between right and wrong.

"Isome ways but not in all ways. Their "morality " is not based on religious beliefs, but:"

I'don't know about that, I had a pointer who scratched out a note to me indicating he was of the Hindu religion. He mentioned that he'd been both a pheasant and a dog trainer in past lives, and he really is enjoying this time around as a 'stud' dog!

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:08 pm

Can dogs reason ? .... I think , yes, but to a limited degree and maybe not in the same way as we reason. Are dogs moral ? No, in my opinion.

Bill T.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:08 pm

4dabirds wrote:Are dogs moral. Can they reason. Do they understand the difference between right and wrong.

No way.

Charlie

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:16 pm

I think Sharon nailed the question.
Dogs can reason but don't have the brain power to do it to the extent humans do. I think morality is largely learned so there morality would depend on what they have learned, just like people.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:19 pm

Winchey wrote:I think Sharon nailed the question.
Dogs can reason but don't have the brain power to do it to the extent humans do. I think morality is largely learned so there morality would depend on what they have learned, just like people.

Morality is not an instinct but is a learned response to an incident of some kind. Morality even differs in different cultures and has no use in describing animal behavior.

Ezzy

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:24 pm

Even in humans, moriality is a learned trait.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:15 pm

Absolutely not. Dog's can not reason. The only way they know the right way from the wrong way, is through training and conditioning.

Jrclmn18 · Post by **Jrclmn18** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:39 pm

If ALL dogs can not reason, how do you explain the respect and carefulness many dogs exhibit when encountering a newborn baby or puppy upon presentation without ever experiencing a scenario like that in their life? Many breeds will not react like this but some do.

TraditionsGSPs2010 · Post by **TraditionsGSPs2010** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:55 pm

Here's my 2 cents. I think Sharon is spot on. I absolutely believe dogs know or feel everything she described. However, I am not sure it is due to being moral as the definition is described. They are not concerned with the principles of right and wrong which precludes them being moral. That doesn't mean that I don't know some dogs who have higher morals than some of the people I have seen at Wal-mart. They just don't know they have them!

dakotashooter2 · Post by **dakotashooter2** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 8:08 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:Absolutely not. Dog's can not reason. The only way they know the right way from the wrong way, is through training and conditioning.

I also disagree. They can reason but only at the levels we would associate with a young child. We cannot possibly train them for every situation we encounter in the field yet they continue to work their way through problems we have not explicitly trained them for. I didn not train my dog to be sitting in the driveway waiting for me when I get home at work. It learned that behavior on it's own. Dogs can't reason? Why would they dig at the bottom of the fence if they didn't have some reasoning skills that would make them think they could get onder it. Why would they attempt to go around or over a barrier if they had no reasoning skills. The fact that dogs understand reward based training invoves some reasoning on the dogs part.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 8:22 pm

Dogs don't reason. Dogs only appreciate right and wrong in how it affects them directly. Positively, negatively, or neutral.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 8:23 pm

dakotashooter2 wrote: I also disagree. They can reason but only at the levels we would associate with a young child. We cannot possibly train them for every situation we encounter in the field yet they continue to work their way through problems we have not explicitly trained them for. I didn not train my dog to be sitting in the driveway waiting for me when I get home at work. It learned that behavior on it's own. Dogs can't reason? Why would they dig at the bottom of the fence if they didn't have some reasoning skills that would make them think they could get onder it. Why would they attempt to go around or over a barrier if they had no reasoning skills. The fact that dogs understand reward based training invoves some reasoning on the dogs part.

IMO you are confusing "reasoning" with instinctual behavior and learned behavior.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:05 pm

ACooper wrote:
dakotashooter2 wrote: I also disagree. They can reason but only at the levels we would associate with a young child. We cannot possibly train them for every situation we encounter in the field yet they continue to work their way through problems we have not explicitly trained them for. I didn not train my dog to be sitting in the driveway waiting for me when I get home at work. It learned that behavior on it's own. Dogs can't reason? Why would they dig at the bottom of the fence if they didn't have some reasoning skills that would make them think they could get onder it. Why would they attempt to go around or over a barrier if they had no reasoning skills. The fact that dogs understand reward based training invoves some reasoning on the dogs part.
IMO you are confusing "reasoning" with instinctual behavior and learned behavior.

Absolutely right. We hear everyday on here about dogs only learning through repetition, dogs being place oriented and they can't be expected to react to the same stimulus when they are in a different place. So many examples that I am surprised at the question.

Ezzy

Post by **Sharon** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:13 pm

DonF wrote:Even in humans, morality is a learned trait.

or not..........

SHORTFAT · Post by **SHORTFAT** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:45 pm

Morality (from the Latin moralitas "manner, character, proper behavior") is the differentiation of intentions, decisions, and actions between those that are good (or right) and those that are bad (or wrong). A moral code is a system of morality (for example, according to a particular philosophy, religion, culture, etc.) and a moral is any one practice or teaching within a moral code. The adjective moral is synonymous with "good" or "right." Immorality is the active opposition to morality (i.e. good or right), while amorality is variously defined as an unawareness of, indifference toward, or disbelief in any set of moral standards or principles.

-Forgive my plagiarism please... I do not believe they have a morality in the same sence of reasoning that we do, but I do believe they have a desire to please us and a loyalty that could serve as an example to many people I know... They DO know right from wrong tho'... I have a good friend with a nice Britt... wonderful dog and a great family pet... one weekend his daughter came home from college and ran in the door, dropped off her laundry and ran right back out the door with her boyfriend without even saying hello to the obviously offended dog... The dog went STRAIGHT upstairs and peed on her pillow!

And then sat there with her ears all back cuz she knew she was in big trouble!

Deep question... anyway, they at least have the ability to show untainted affection, and I'll settle for that!

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:45 am

ezzy333 wrote:
Winchey wrote:I think Sharon nailed the question.
Dogs can reason but don't have the brain power to do it to the extent humans do. I think morality is largely learned so there morality would depend on what they have learned, just like people.
Morality is not an instinct but is a learned response to an incident of some kind. Morality even differs in different cultures and has no use in describing animal behavior.

Ezzy

Are you saying dogs run exclusively on instinct to dismiss my response? That is not the case. Dogs and many other animals reason and have been proven to do so in many experiments. One of my dogs is quite goods at solving the dog puzzles at my girlfriends parents pet supply store. The other two, not so much. I know an elephant is not a dog, but I watched one (on tv) find and roll something across his enclosure to use as a stool to reach something that it could not without it.
The dog and human brain is not that different.

SHNOOL · Post by **SHNOOL** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:08 am

Dogs can most assuredly reason. To what extent is dependent on the dog.

I've watched several dogs REASON, how to open a door. First biting the door knob, then when encountering a handle, popping the handle with a nose.

I've watched another dog look at a closed crate from outside... stare at the door, then whack the door with a paw, to cause it to bounce open.

I've watched dogs encounter a stream... and rather than blindly swim across at 2 feet deep, run the edge of it, until it was shallow, then run across.

Again, depending on the dog, reason is a GIVEN. It has to be a survival instinct portion of reason, but it's still there.

As for morality... that's us as humans assigning OUR morality onto the actions of a dog. Dogs of course treat "babies" with ginger care. These are offspring, and considered "important for the survival of the species" this is NOT morality.

A dog does not care if it wins/loses, other than how YOU react to those arbitrary placements. A dog just wants to please it's master. The degree the dog wants to do that is, how much he respects you, and wants to listen to you for rewards/treats/no discipline.

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:30 am

They have to be able to reason on the most basic level. Otherwise our training would not work and it would not be worth having the dog. They know that either a positive or negative response will happen based upon what they do.
Second they can reason in some manner: How about a pheasant or grouse dog that circles the bird to stop them from walking out of the area?
Learned behaviors are reasoned behaviors.

Morality: I do not think so. If you died and your carcass was rotting away and they were hungry they probably would eat your body.

SHORTFAT · Post by **SHORTFAT** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:45 am

Ruffshooter wrote: I do not think so. If you died and your carcass was rotting away and they were hungry they probably would eat your body.

Yeah... but she'd be sad about it... right?..

and after that last episode with the hole in the good Filson blanket, I hope I give her indegestion!

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:54 am

Morality: I do not think so. If you died and your carcass was rotting away and they were hungry they probably would eat your body.[/quote]

So would a person if they were hungry enougl lol.

Texasdogtrainer · Post by **Texasdogtrainer** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:09 am

It's takes a frontal lobe for morality and dogs lack that. Often times people begin to put human qualities onto animal's learned behavior. Any behavior can be learned by patterns, repetitive, rhythmic and relational activities, this is true for both animals and humans.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:29 am

I believe that the use of the term moral, and any other word in any other language is bound by first an understanding of the language itself, the cutural it is applied to, the prevailing conditions, and the experiences and intellect of the sender and receiver... and a few thousand other factors that I am too lazy and probably too ignorant to identify. Therefore, in my mind we are way, way off base in applying a word of that complexity to anything to do with a dog.

I believe I have experienced some emotions from dogs that I am too unsure of to label; what I see mostly is instinct and a reaction to a given situation, hence the importance of association and repitition. Dogs that are exposed to higher levels of operant conditioning in the imprinting stages of life prior to twenty weeks appear to be more inclined to explore and employ canine problem solving behavior more quickly. I believe that those of us who apply too much emotion positive or negative; and worst of all, extremes of both from one situation to the next get at best an average product. I am careful in saying this however, because it may give them the exact, gun dog/pet companion they want. I believe dogs particularly working dogs, loathe day time tv, the subject matter it contains and the sharing of emotions.

I truly believe most of our "talk" is confusing to a dog. Touch, body language, and controlling the highly motivating factors of birds (in this case) or food is vitally important to top level trainers. I don't believe that dogs reason in any way shape or form with any forethought; such as, "Joe is feeling down today, what can I do to cheer him up?" More likely, their response to Joe being down is to mirror the mood and get clingly because they are nervous that the leader/provider is weakened. When dogs reason, it is with a right now problem or opportunity and any reasoning they do is how to get the best outcome for them; in the simplest form how do I garner the best reward and avoid the risks?

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:38 am

Chukar12 wrote:I believe that the use of the term moral, and any other word in any other language is bound by first an understanding of the language itself, the cutural it is applied to, the prevailing conditions, and the experiences and intellect of the sender and receiver... and a few thousand other factors that I am too lazy and probably too ignorant to identify. Therefore, in my mind we are way, way off base in applying a word of that complexity to anything to do with a dog.

I believe I have experienced some emotions from dogs that I am too unsure of to label; what I see mostly is instinct and a reaction to a given situation, hence the importance of association and repitition. Dogs that are exposed to higher levels of operant conditioning in the imprinting stages of life prior to twenty weeks appear to be more inclined to explore and employ canine problem solving behavior more quickly. I believe that those of us who apply too much emotion positive or negative; and worst of all, extremes of both from one situation to the next get at best an average product. I am careful in saying this however, because it may give them the exact, gun dog/pet companion they want. I believe dogs particularly working dogs, loathe day time tv, the subject matter it contains and the sharing of emotions.

I truly believe most of our "talk" is confusing to a dog. Touch, body language, and controlling the highly motivating factors of birds (in this case) or food is vitally important to top level trainers. I don't believe that dogs reason in any way shape or form with any forethought; such as, "Joe is feeling down today, what can I do to cheer him up?" More likely, their response to Joe being down is to mirror the mood and get clingly because they are nervous that the leader/provider is weakened. When dogs reason, it is with a right now problem or opportunity and any reasoning they do is how to get the best outcome for them; in the simplest form how do I garner the best reward and avoid the risks?

Excellent post.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:01 am

Texasdogtrainer wrote:It's takes a frontal lobe for morality and dogs lack that. Often times people begin to put human qualities onto animal's learned behavior. Any behavior can be learned by patterns, repetitive, rhythmic and relational activities, this is true for both animals and humans.

Dogs have a cerebrum.

Post by **Sharon** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:46 am

gonehuntin' wrote:Absolutely not. Dog's can not reason. The only way they know the right way from the wrong way, is through training and conditioning.

You may be right.

Example: My dog is lying on the couch in the tv room. Suddenly he gets up; trots upstairs. He comes down with a Dixie cup from the bathroon basket.- - his favourite. There must have been some reasoning/planning there. ( if no cup isin one bathroom , he tries all 3 bathrooms.).

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:13 pm

The dog and human brain is not that different.

:roll: :roll: :roll: .

Charlie

Post by **topher40** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:34 pm

I have been off of here for a month or so and this is what I come back to? What the heck does it matter? Will it make a better dog? I can only hope the OP is doing some sort of left wing research paper for PETA! Layoff the peanut butter, that will help keeping your dogs from doing anything that isnt moral!

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:09 pm

Humans are the only species which have a conscience and are aware of right and wrong. There is a reason for that but it would be against the GDF rules to get into that. Dogs are amazing animals, great companions and I am thankful for them. Can they reason? For every example that somebody gives that says yes, I can give an example that says no. IMO, some people have watched too many Disney movies and the likes. Please, no offense to anybody, JMO.

Charlie

Post by **topher40** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:23 pm

I did forget to mention that I once had a dog that had a GREAT sense of Fashion. God I miss that dog, he was one of the best bird finders I ever owned. That is, as long as the birds were wearing a sweater vest.........

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:51 pm

Sharon wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:Absolutely not. Dog's can not reason. The only way they know the right way from the wrong way, is through training and conditioning.
You may be right. Example: My dog is lying on the couch in the tv room. Suddenly he gets up; trots upstairs. He comes down with a Dixie cup from the bathroon basket.- - his favourite. There must have been some reasoning/planning there. ( if no cup isin one bathroom , he tries all 3 bathrooms.).

Good example. I don't think that was reasoning, it was a learned response. He was probably garbage surfing one day, and found a dixie cup in a wastebasket. Now, he knows, dixie cups live in wastebaskets. Everytime he wants one, he goes and checks our a waste basket until he finds one. Simple a learned behavior.

Anything I have ever seen a person say is a dog's reasoning, can simply be attributed to something they have either been taught or inadvertently learned.

If dog's could reason, they would never disobey commands because they'd know they were going to get their "bleep" kicked. Yet time after time, they will disobey a command and end up with a correction.

Dog's can't reason, they can learn. Some much faster and easier than others.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:27 pm

I would guess that George Hickox wrote an article some where that said he hadn't realized it till a dog knelt down at the magic brush pile and asked forgiveness for chasing some poor bird and killing it. And from now forward we will have people who think dogs have morals. Ad of course George will change the name of the Magic Brush Pile to the Miracle Brush Pile.

Ezzy

4dabirds · Post by **4dabirds** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:46 pm

I had an airedale terrier as my first dog. He would open the door to the house by turning the knob, push the screen door latch with his nose, then flip the gate latch on the fence and go out for the day or maybe a couple of days. If the gate was locked he jumped over the six foot fence. I would not consider any of these things to be done by reason they were all learned behaviors. He watched and learned, even the fence jumping had not happened until he saw my sisters dog jump the fence, then he followed . My sisters dog jumped the fence until she got her paw stuck in the decorative steel on top of the gate hanging herself by the foot, although the fence was a hundred feet long and only had the decorations on the gate she never jumped it again. If he had the ability to reason he would have unlocked the gate instead of jumping over and she would have just jumped in a different location. reason |ˈrēzən|
noun
1 a cause, explanation, or justification for an action or event : the minister resigned for personal reasons | it is hard to know for the simple reason that few records survive.
• good or obvious cause to do something : we have reason to celebrate.
• Logic a premise of an argument in support of a belief, esp. a minor premise when given after the conclusion.
2 the power of the mind to think, understand, and form judgments by a process of logic : there is a close connection between reason and emotion.
• what is right, practical, or possible; common sense : people are willing, within reason, to pay for schooling.
• ( one's reason) one's sanity : she is in danger of losing her reason.
The reason i posted this is because I have seen many times ,people stating that the dog is doing one thing or the other because it wants to please you, I think this is bad for the dog as the inverse of this is the dog did not comply because it does not appreciate the trainer. You can not have one without the other. This leads the trainer to be emotional as a result of performance or non performance directing anger at the dog when in fact the result or the lack of result is only due to training or the lack of training respectively. If the dog is properly trained it will perform in the absence of its owner.

4dabirds · Post by **4dabirds** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:52 pm

ezzy333 wrote:I would guess that George Hickox wrote an article some where that said he hadn't realized it till a dog knelt down at the magic brush pile and asked forgiveness for chasing some poor bird and killing it. And from now forward we will have people who think dogs have morals. Ad of course George will change the name of the Magic Brush Pile to the Miracle Brush Pile.

Ezzy

as usual ezzy you are clueless, ,arrogent,off base,Only you would bring your jealousy of george hickox into a conversation that had nothing to do with him.Although the miracle brush pile is kinda catchy.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:53 pm

4dabirds wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:I would guess that George Hickox wrote an article some where that said he hadn't realized it till a dog knelt down at the magic brush pile and asked forgiveness for chasing some poor bird and killing it. And from now forward we will have people who think dogs have morals. Ad of course George will change the name of the Magic Brush Pile to the Miracle Brush Pile.

Ezzy
as usual ezzy you are clueless, ,arrogent,off base,Only you would bring your jealousy of george hickox into a conversation that had nothing to do with him.Although the miracle brush pile is kinda catchy.

You are right but it had something to do with you

Clueless

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:39 am

ezzy333 wrote:
4dabirds wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:I would guess that George Hickox wrote an article some where that said he hadn't realized it till a dog knelt down at the magic brush pile and asked forgiveness for chasing some poor bird and killing it. And from now forward we will have people who think dogs have morals. Ad of course George will change the name of the Magic Brush Pile to the Miracle Brush Pile.

Ezzy
as usual ezzy you are clueless, ,arrogent,off base,Only you would bring your jealousy of george hickox into a conversation that had nothing to do with him.Although the miracle brush pile is kinda catchy.
You are right but it had something to do with you

Clueless

:roll:

Hypocritical much?

Post by **Sharon** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:18 am

topher40 wrote:I have been off of here for a month or so and this is what I come back to? What the heck does it matter? Will it make a better dog? I can only hope the OP is doing some sort of left wing research paper for PETA! Layoff the peanut butter, that will help keeping your dogs from doing anything that isnt moral!

ROFLMBO.... I had to think that one through for a minute. Welcome back.