leash fear/agression

[Tups]

I am a first timer, and have a 19 weeks old male GSP (had him since 8 weeks). He is 30 lbs and very strong. Naturally he also has lots of energy. He get at least 4 good runs a day of half an hour to one hour off the leash. During the daytime, I am at work and my wife and son (11yrs old) run him. I am also out of town one or 2 nights a week, so they are also in charge during those times. He starts on the leash each time for the first couple hundred yards and then when he gets to the field/woods he is let off for his romp. My wife and son were having a very difficult time controlling him on the leash starting abt 12 weeks, so I made an effort to teach him to heel better on the leash. When he would pull ahead, I would command heel and pull him up even with me. I also used the change of direction technique, all with limited success. I must have been too strict with my training because now he really resists the leash and fights me when I attempt to clip it on. When I attempt to take his collar in my left hand he immediately goes for my hand with his jaws. Athough he does not clamp down, his teeth scratch me up a bit. I command no and he rolls on his back submissively but won't let go of my hand - no doubt he feels conflicted. I should also add that he has a naturally stubborn temperament. He knows sit, stay and come, but sometimes blows me off. I need to hit the re-set button somehow on the leash contol issue. I just got an ecollar but haven't put it on yet. Any ideas on how to get him under control on the leash and to help him over his fear? Thanks in advance.

[Sharon]

So he's 19 weeks old. I can tell you what i would do but I could be wrong. I would wear some heavy gloves . When he goes to grab my hand I would grab his mouth. and squeeze firmly. Unless you were whipping him with the leash , there no acceptable reason for him to resist it. He's testing you . Don't let him win.
I would bet he's resisting other things to. i would get tough with this dog. i would also put the leash on several times a day , even when you are not going out.
I would n't introduce an e collar yet but some may suggest that. Make sure this dog earns every privilege. This is not an unusual dog. They come like that sometimes.

4 runs a day , off leash , for an hour + - each time seems excessive to me. I'm sure the dog loves it but that must be hard on the family.What are they doing with leash?

PS Welcome to the forum. A flaq jacket and helmet will be occasionally needed but you will get sound advice.

[jcbuttry8]

You might try staking him out in the yard during the day for a little while at a time. I believe it helped us with Kona. She seems to handle control a lot better with the leash. It was never me that had the problem with this. It was with the wife and daughter. You have to remember that your at work. I know with my situation, it was an " I can't get on to a small puppy. You can't yell or get forceful with a puppy." So, our daily walks ended until I was home to supervise. Once they were comfortable seeing my reactions to things and how I handled the pup they realized they wouldn't break her. It seemed to get better with the fine ladies of the house. Sometimes, even the Manager and the assistant Manager of the establishment need training.

You may need to spend some time watching and seeing what else is being allowed to slip on these walks. Just make sure that there is consistency all the way around. It can be confusing for a puppy if one is strict and the others are to nice. It is amazing how much control a young pup can come up with.

Joe

[MikeB]

I think I would do a 180 on your training techniques. The "re-set button needs to be on YOUR training skills. Your whole family needs some professional obedience training instruction. OMG... This is a 5 month old high energy, smart pup that needs training using positive skills that work. You must understand he is still really young. You can't expect him to act like an adult dog. Mouthing hands is about as normal a puppy behavior as you get. It's NOT aggression. If you could watch him play with other dogs he would use his mouth on another pup the same way. It's what dogs do. It's play rather than any aggression. I would start using a yummy treat to reintroduce putting the leash on him for a while. Make the leash a positive rather than the negetive you have caused.

First thing I would do is find a professional dog trainer, (NO not a gun dog trainer) a trainer that works with working dogs and owners. Spring is here and the weather is getting pretty nice. Time to get out and get some training.

[Tups]

Your whole family needs some professional obedience training instruction. OMG...

Mike: Did you just say OMG. Just checking. Right, first hitch in the training and it's time to pass it off to the professionals. I see your point.

So he's 19 weeks old. I can tell you what i would do but I could be wrong. I would wear some heavy gloves . When he goes to grab my hand I would grab his mouth. and squeeze firmly.

Sharon: I had considered this and may still do it if I feel I need to in the end. Instead, I took a step back yesterday and worked entirely on sit stay come to try to re-focus his mind and mine. I only put him on the leash once yday and did not attempt to heel him at all.

Unless you were whipping him with the leash , there no acceptable reason for him to resist it.

I am not beyond whipping him if absolutely necessary, but absolutely never with the leash. As I said, he is not a naturally submissive dog; he is bold and energetic. We have a 6 yr old daughter who really loves the dog but is certainly no match for him. Naturally, as a pup he would single her out as the easiest target. He loved nothing better than to jump up, knock her down and try to drag her around by the hood of her coat, ignoring the NO command. He did the same with the little neighbor kids. For this he was given immediate and swift retribution with a willow switch across the rump. After a few such incidents, he got the message. He still likes to fly by her and nip at the air, but he is careful not to stoke the wrath. My wife has the temperament of a Marine and the power to back it up, so he is getting a pretty consistent message from the mgmt.

He's testing you . Don't let him win.

Perhaps he is testing me, but I sense a defensive element of fear in his actions as well. I put his first collar on him at 8 weeks and I think he has been uncomfortable with the idea since the beginning - a part of his personality I must overcome. I should add that I have noticed his strong desire to grab with his mouth since day one. It took a while but I have been able to train him not to clamp down by commanding NO and squeezing his lips against the teeth. At 8 weeks he bloodied my hand with those needle teeth several times. As I say, he is by no means a soft dog, but stubborn and needs a somewhat heavy hand.

He spends some time everyday out on a chain in the yard unless raining or inclement, and I see value in that.

They come like that sometimes.

Prior to this we had a female rescue mutt for a house pet. She was naturally submissive and gave me no grief at all. This guy is a challenge. I should add that he is actually a cross btwn GSP and Britt ( a breeders mistake litter), but seeing him you would say 100% GSP. Ironically, I thought it might be a good cross because I read that both breeds are considered easy to train. I believe he is bright though bold and wants his own way if he can get it.

4 runs a day , off leash , for an hour + - each time seems excessive to me. I'm sure the dog loves it but that must be hard on the family.What are they doing with leash?

Actually 4 a day of one-half to one hour. So, if I'm reading you right, plenty of exercise can be a negative? Hmmm, never thought I'd hear that. It's no hardship on the family. We don't have TV, so they need something to do.

PS Welcome to the forum. A flaq jacket and helmet will be occasionally needed but you will get sound advice.

Thank you, I appreciate the help and observations I have received. Helmet and jacket on. JB

[4dabirds]

Read the book culture clash by Jean Donaldson. You can get it at amazon .com for under 10 dollars. This will give you the why, and as well as the, how to ,for this behavior as well as many others. It gives you a base line of communicating with the dog on the dogs level , and will help you tremendously. You are fighting the dogs natural tendencies instead of working with them. This will only lead to the dog being trained using negative reinforcement . Trained behaviors that are rewarded are likely to be repeated. Good luck.

[snips]

Seems like u could just put your hand over his muzzle holding him still and snap the lead on...???

[Sharon]

I got the impression that the dog was too aggressive for a gentle hand. "When I attempt to take his collar in my left hand he immediately goes for my hand with his jaws. "

[Tups]

Sharon and Brenda: Thank you for your recommendations. He wil not respond to a gentle hand when he is in his dominance mood. He was back on the leash three times today and on the chain in the yard for a while as well. He really only gave me a fight when I went to clip on the yard chain. When he started for me I grabbed his lower jaw with my bare hand and pulled him down to the ground growling NO. He rolled over and he and I both released after a few seconds (once he went still). I should have used a glove perhaps but he does not clamp down so there was no pain. Immediatey after that he sat stayed and came and recvd a treat.

I should add that I use positive reinforcement every day in my obedience training. But I haven't yet come up with a solution to this one.

He completely understands NO and DOWN but cant seem to control himself sometimes (esp. when he is very excited). Someone else in this thread thought he might just be playing when he grabs my hand. I thought I had described the scenario well enough to illustrate that we are not in a play situation when this occurs. He is rolled over on his back, belly up and eyes averted. I'm no dog behavioralist, but to me he is displaying most of the right behavior. He is submitting to my dominant hand in this situation, but he literay retains hold of that hand. In the end, I must be abe to clip him on a leash under any and all circumstances without a fight or any display of dominance on his part - that's my goal. It's not good enough for him to submit after a struggle. He must put up zero resistance to the collar and leash/chain.

4dabirds. I will look for that book in the library. You say I am working against the dog's natural tendencies and I quite agree. He would prefer to dominate me and I him (he is working against me as well). You have piqued my curiosity however. In this particular case, how should I go about working with his natural tendencies? This dog is maturing rapidly and I need a strategy. Thanks to all.

[ezzy333]

Sharon and Brenda: Thank you for your recommendations. He wil not respond to a gentle hand when he is in his dominance mood. He was back on the leash three times today and on the chain in the yard for a while as well. He really only gave me a fight when I went to clip on the yard chain. When he started for me I grabbed his lower jaw with my bare hand and pulled him down to the ground growling NO. He rolled over and he and I both released after a few seconds (once he went still). I should have used a glove perhaps but he does not clamp down so there was no pain. Immediatey after that he sat stayed and came and recvd a treat.

I should add that I use positive reinforcement every day in my obedience training. But I haven't yet come up with a solution to this one.

He completely understands NO and DOWN but cant seem to control himself sometimes (esp. when he is very excited). Someone else in this thread thought he might just be playing when he grabs my hand. I thought I had described the scenario well enough to illustrate that we are not in a play situation when this occurs. He is rolled over on his back, belly up and eyes averted. I'm no dog behavioralist, but to me he is displaying most of the right behavior. He is submitting to my dominant hand in this situation, but he literay retains hold of that hand. In the end, I must be abe to clip him on a leash under any and all circumstances without a fight or any display of dominance on his part - that's my goal. It's not good enough for him to submit after a struggle. He must put up zero resistance to the collar and leash/chain.

4dabirds. I will look for that book in the library. You say I am working against the dog's natural tendencies and I quite agree. He would prefer to dominate me and I him (he is working against me as well). You have piqued my curiosity however. In this particular case, how should I go about working with his natural tendencies? This dog is maturing rapidly and I need a strategy. Thanks to all.

Your 19 week old pup sounds completely normal to me. They usually try to see what they can get away with. If they didn't I would think something was wrong. I jut don't expect a puppy to be a perfectly trained dog.

Ezzy

[ultracarry]

It's your dog. If he is biting out of fear put him down and get a new dog. Cowering, growling, biting, snapping when you walk by... Might as well pay the vet $50.00. Get rid of it.

[Tups]

Ultra: Very sound advice. Don't think it hasn't occurred to me. But no, I'll work with him until he and I get it right. I feel I owe him that. He's not a vicious dog by any means. He's actually quite intelligent and learns quickly when he has a mind to. He's a good lookin' mutt too.

Ezzy: Thanks I needed that. He's likely the sort of dog I would be myself if I were a dog -the kind who would really resent a collar and chain.

Sharon: At this point your advice sounds the most practicable and is the course I will continue for now.

This has been most helpful. Thanks to all. JB (Tups)

[marysburg]

Mike B has given you good advice. Go to puppy class with your dog and take the whole family along. You might see that your pup is not too far from ordinary and that you might be the one who needs to relax and try a different way. Enjoy your pup and remember that he is a baby and you need to give hime guidance.

[Sharon]

[quote="Tups"]Sharon and Brenda: Thank you for your recommendations. He wil not respond to a gentle hand when he is in his dominance mood. He was back on the leash three times today and on the chain in the yard for a while as well. He really only gave me a fight when I went to clip on the yard chain. When he started for me I grabbed his lower jaw with my bare hand and pulled him down to the ground growling NO. He rolled over and he and I both released after a few seconds (once he went still). I should have used a glove perhaps but he does not clamp down so there was no pain. Immediatey after that he sat stayed and came and recvd a treat../quote]

"Actually 4 a day of one-half to one hour. So, if I'm reading you right, plenty of exercise can be a negative? Hmmm, never thought I'd hear that. It's no hardship on the family. We don't have TV, so they need something to do." quote
................................................................................................................

All right . Well done. I was reading over my post and thought it sounded too tough but.......
Ultra Carry is right on too.

No I'm not saying plenty of exercise can be a negative for the dog. I'm saying it's an amazing commitment for a family. Letting the dog become the centre of your whole day , isn't good for either of you.

[mountaindogs]

You should get this dog into a class. Sounds like he is going to give your family some tough times. I use positive methods as much as possible, but this has me wanting to advise "delmar" style. Put pup on a chain gang. Not a12 foot stake out. A 2 foot chain gang style, and let the restraint come from NOT you. Supervise but do not give him your full attention unless he is Calm. If/ when he is calm reward him with treat.s and CALM GENTLE praise.

[birddogger]

I will use positive reinforcement but I will also have a "come to Jesus" meeting when needed. But with your pup being just 5 mos. old and not being there to see exactly what is going on, he sounds pretty normal to me. He does need to be taught and trained but from what I have read it doesn't sound like anything abnormal is going on.

Charlie

[Cajun Casey]

What does the breeder say about this situation?

[MikeB]

Tups,

The OMG... went with this statement.

"OMG... This is a 5 month old high energy, smart pup that needs training using positive skills that work. You must understand he is still really young. You can't expect him to act like an adult dog."

[dakotashooter2]

You could try putting and leaving a short (8'-12") lead on his collar and attaching the leash to that. It will give you something other than the collar to grab onto (which may be a hot button) and allow you some control out of nipping range when you clip on the leash.

[RayGubernat]

One other thing you and your family can do when they take th dog out is to use a flank hitch when walking the dog with the lead.

Basically you run the lead along the top of the dog's spine and then loop it around the dog's waist and back up under the lead on the dog's spine. When the dog pulls, the loop tightens around the dog's belly. The harder the dog pulls, the tighter the loop gets.

Dogs generally figure out PDQ that pulling is uncomfortable and pulling hard is VERY uncomfortable.

I would also take a 2-3 ft. long piece of rope or lead, clip it to the dog's flat collar and leave it on whenever the dog is out and about. It needs to understand that a lead is part of its dress uniform, same as its collar.


RayG

[SHORTFAT]

Patience, persistance, and consistancy... Gun Dog Supply has several books that have great informative tips... Find a knowledgeable trainer to help you if you can, but is sounds like the dog just needs to know you are running the show. Keep at it, I don't think it's anything too serious, but it can be if you let the dog get away with it as it gets older... Good luck!!!

[AzDoggin]

I would also take a 2-3 ft. long piece of rope or lead, clip it to the dog's flat collar and leave it on whenever the dog is out and about. It needs to understand that a lead is part of its dress uniform, same as its collar.


RayG

+1. Good idea Ray. Doggie needs to live with a collar and leash, basically.

[Sharon]

You could try putting and leaving a short (8'-12") lead on his collar and attaching the leash to that. It will give you something other than the collar to grab onto (which may be a hot button) and allow you some control out of nipping range when you clip on the leash.

Good advice.

[4dabirds]

Dogs learn by association. Dogs are social animals. Dogs tied out alone will exhibit many negative behaviors. Dogs use strategies to get what they want and to avoid what they do not want.dogs use cues in their environment to determine wether something is safe or dangerous. Dogs will use fight flight fakery or freeze as strategies to avoid negative stimulation or behaviors wich are associated with negative stimuli. Behaviors that are positively reinforced are Likly to be repeated.

[mountaindogs]

Supervise, as I said. Never alone!
The drag line is a better idea. I always do this with puppies, but forgot about this step. Just realize they will chew the rope if it is chewable, which you do not want to encourage.

[4dabirds]

There is a lot of good advice on here. Just to elaborate on my point now that I can respond on my computer instead of phone. The dog has a negative association with the collar. This association could be his natural aversion to the restraint as some said,"just the puppy being a puppy", or it could be a created negative association. Something as simple as the vet holding the collar while giving the dog its shot would lead the dog to believe that every time will be painful. Using leash jerks as a training method is negative reinforcement ,if you use this method every time you bring the dog outside the dog will associate the collar as the cue that leads to this. I think the best thing to do in this situation is to create a positive association with the leash as well as the collar. The dog should perceive the leash as leading to only good things. Up until now the dogs strategy is to growl and bite to avoid the leash. It only takes one repetition of the dog winning this game for it to become a learned behavior. If you plan to start this game you have to win it every time , it has to be inevitable that the dog will lose . Depending on how motivated the dog is to succeed will determine the longevity of the fight. If the dog is motivated out of a desire for reward there will be no fight.