hard mouth

britspan · Post by **britspan** » Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:32 pm

I've read some other topics on working with a hard mouthed dog but I have a few specific concerns. I am raising some live birds this spring for training. Does anyone have any tips or advice for getting her to not kill them while retrieving? I am trying to work with her hard mouth but she usually is better when the bird is dead but if it is still alive she seems to be worse. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:36 pm

How are you sending a dog for a retrieve with a live bird? People usually shoot the bird first before having the dog retrieve it.

britspan · Post by **britspan** » Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:26 pm

This is purely for retriever training. I have worked on pointing and backing for 1.5 years and now working on retrieving. I want to reuse live birds because she has a very high prey drive and has never retrieved a bumper etc.

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Sat Mar 31, 2012 5:34 am

So you are not talking about shooting a bird and it was just a poor shot and the bird is just wounded right?

If that is the case, (IMO) You are asking for the dog to be hard mouthed. You are setting the dog up to fail. If the bird skirms around trying to get away the dog is going to bite down and or kill it. Wont the dog retrieve dead birds? If not, time to FF. The FF will help minimize the hard mouth, but it may always be there. GH has worked with a lot of hard mouth dogs. Maybe he will chime in.

What kind of retrieving drills have you done up to this point?
Has the dog retrieved any dead birds up to now?
Has the dog retrieved at all up to now?
Have you shot over the dog?
Have you shot a bird from a successfull point and steady postion?
Have you shot a bird from a broken point/ steady postition?

I take it that saying you have been working on pointing and backing, you mean you have steadied the dog in those areas.
You must have used live birds in those drill right?

You did not ask the following but here it is and your probably already know this or in some manner.

If so once you have your dog retrieving you need to intergrate the shot bird into the steadiness drill also. Some of those birds will be shot some will not.

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Sat Mar 31, 2012 5:53 am

There is absolutely no cure for a dog killing birds. Many great hunting dogs with a ton of drive do. About the only thing I've noticed is that after they handle a LOT of birds, the novelty wears off and they may retrieve some alive. I never care if they put the giant squeeze on the bird and kill it on the way in, as long as they don't stop and tear it apart. Then you have a problem.

cjhills · Post by **cjhills** » Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:18 am

We train all of our dogs on live locked wing pigeons after they go through the conditioned retrieve.
We stop the dog ,throw the pigeon ,fire the blank gun and send the dog on the retrieve. Sometimes they kill the bird the first few times, but after a few retrieves they learn how to pick the bird up and get over the excitment of having a live bird in their mouth, they stop mouthing which they learned not to do in the conditioned retrieve. Sometimes hard mouth is caused by rough Force Fetch. I have never had a extremely hardmouthed dog so might be why it works. But, this has worked on many dogs for us.
CJ

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:50 am

gonehuntin' wrote:There is absolutely no cure for a dog killing birds. Many great hunting dogs with a ton of drive do. About the only thing I've noticed is that after they handle a LOT of birds, the novelty wears off and they may retrieve some alive. I never care if they put the giant squeeze on the bird and kill it on the way in, as long as they don't stop and tear it apart. Then you have a problem.

Many years ago at a Shorthair trial my Lefty found a cripple bird in the field. He was coming in with it and the judges tell's me, "sure hope that birds dead"! Well the bird was looking around and enjoying the ride, mach as a bird in a dogs mouth could. I looked at the judge, he looks back at me and say's "to bad". But I did find out it was crippled. Haqd a broken leg! Judge told me the dog probably did it. Probably, that's means he doesn't know bt maybe! One less dog he had to judge!

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Sat Mar 31, 2012 2:07 pm

I can hardly believe any competent judge would eliminate a dog from a trial if the bird was returned with only a leg damaged.

I am well known here for being very anti hard-mouth but a dog has to crush a few ribs before I'd even consider eliminating it.
Where hard mouth is concerned I know of no certain "cure" for it although I have heard of several supposed "cures."

Bill T.

Mike50 · Post by **Mike50** » Sat Mar 31, 2012 3:06 pm

If you think about it from a dogs perspective. Would you go pick up a crippled bird with your mouth and get slapped in the face or spurred your eyes pecked out? Or would you put the squeeze on him? It's between the dog and the bird as long as the bird is delivered to hand I'm OK with that. Also think about what is happening that you don't see. If the dog goes for the retrieve and can grab the bird from the back side and lock the wings chances are the bird won't put up a fight. If they come face to face and the dog grabs the bird wings will be flapping and feet will be kicking . Thus let go and grab again.
I've never had a crippled bird brought back face to face by my dogs alive. Thank GOD their smarter than that.
Don't believe me? Grab a live bird by it feet or chest. Then grab one from behind locking it's wings.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat Mar 31, 2012 6:55 pm

Trekmoor wrote:I can hardly believe any competent judge would eliminate a dog from a trial if the bird was returned with only a leg damaged.

I am well known here for being very anti hard-mouth but a dog has to crush a few ribs before I'd even consider eliminating it.
Where hard mouth is concerned I know of no certain "cure" for it although I have heard of several supposed "cures."

Bill T.

I think he means the judge was assuming the dog caught and retrieved a planted bird, rather than one that had been shot. Let me know if I am wrong.

Charlie

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:04 pm

Mike50 wrote:If you think about it from a dogs perspective. Would you go pick up a crippled bird with your mouth and get slapped in the face or spurred your eyes pecked out? Or would you put the squeeze on him? It's between the dog and the bird as long as the bird is delivered to hand I'm OK with that. Also think about what is happening that you don't see. If the dog goes for the retrieve and can grab the bird from the back side and lock the wings chances are the bird won't put up a fight. If they come face to face and the dog grabs the bird wings will be flapping and feet will be kicking . Thus let go and grab again.
I've never had a crippled bird brought back face to face by my dogs alive. Thank GOD their smarter than that.
Don't believe me? Grab a live bird by it feet or chest. Then grab one from behind locking it's wings.

+1. I have no problem with a dog that kills a crippled bird during the retrieve, as long as he doesn't mangle it. There is a big difference.

Charlie

TRoberts · Post by **TRoberts** » Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:23 pm

britspan wrote:I've read some other topics on working with a hard mouthed dog but I have a few specific concerns. I am raising some live birds this spring for training. Does anyone have any tips or advice for getting her to not kill them while retrieving? I am trying to work with her hard mouth but she usually is better when the bird is dead but if it is still alive she seems to be worse. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

For young EP's that were hard mouthed, I always used a harness. They will come around to what you want if you put alittle time in with them.

They come in many siizes. Let the bird run loose and send the dog to the bird as you control him with a check cord. Don let him kill the bird by talking to him after he picks up the bird...make him come to you and he will learn that the deal is bringing the bird back. IF he contunes to kill the bird , take a dead bird and put 8 penny or larger depending on the bird thru it and freeze it. Play catch with it . Make it fun for your dog to make short retrieves and he will figure it out. It won't take long. Good luck!

britspan · Post by **britspan** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:16 pm

This is purely for polishing up her retrieve. She has not been force fetched and I don't plan to. She has retrieved somewhere in the range of 75 birds. She retrieves descent for a non field trial dog using a very strong 'here' command. I am planning on using them similar to pigeons for re-use.

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