Incorrect Advice Given about Training a pup/dog.

[Sharon]

"Run the pup with older dogs".... This can diminish a pup's confidence and independence. In beagle packs for example , he can turn into a follower.

[ezzy333]

"Run the pup with older dogs".... This can diminish a pup's confidence and independence. In beagle packs for example , he can turn into a follower.

You may not recommend it but that is how many are treained. I think there is a place for it with some pups just like there is for most other ways of training.

Ezzy

[bb560m]

When my dog runs with older or bigger ranging dogs it does the exact opposite. He competes and wants to be in front and it pushes him out...

[birddogger]

FWIW, I will run a pup with older dogs, but I like to start out by running them alone until they have gained some independence. During play and exercise time, they all run together. Then I will put the older ones up and work on yard training or whatever with the pup.

Charlie

[Trekmoor]

I often run pups with older dogs but I am always wary about doing this for too long a time span. I don't like to see my dogs "ghost" another hunting dog, I like them to be jealous hunters. The most recent pup I ran with my cockers was a 6 months old, very soft vizsla bitch pup. She wanted to play with the cockers but to do that she had to follow them through cover and into water. She is now a totally rubbish open ground hunter ---- she lacks both range and pace , but she is very good in woodlands or other cover and will tackle just about anything all on her own. I doubt if she would ever have treated cover in the way that she does if she had not had that month or two of following my cockers.
I think it is up to the trainer to decide when to cease to take pups out with older hunting dogs. I do it when I can see they are bold enough to hunt on their own.

Bill T.

[RayGubernat]

"Run the pup with older dogs".... This can diminish a pup's confidence and independence. In beagle packs for example , he can turn into a follower.

You may not recommend it but that is how many are treained. I think there is a place for it with some pups just like there is for most other ways of training.

Ezzy

Ezzy -

C'mon now. That is a pretty dumb thing to say. I know you know better than that. As my momma used to ask:" If ten guys jump off a bridge in front of you, does that mean you should too?"

Just because a lot of dogs are trained(or untrained as the case may be) by running two dogs together, that does not mean it is the best way to go.

There are certain things I will do with an older trained dog and a young pupil. There are certain things that a dog can teach another dog much better than I can. However, most of the time, for most things, I consider it good procedure to train a youngster alone.

RayG

[Ricky Ticky Shorthairs]

[ultracarry]

This thread is a trap!

[dan v]

Like everything else in training dog...it depends on the dog. Some need it others don't. Some will learn to only look for a dog to back, others it won't bother.

[Sharon]

This thread is a trap!

ROFLMBO..... Actually i thought it might be fun to post bad advice that we have been given or heard given.I didn't mean for the thread to get hung up on my post. I think this is the second time I have posted a new thread. lesson learned.

[4dabirds]

From a strictly behavioral standpoint dogs learn by association. In a controlled training environment you can guarantee the outcome of what association the dog makes . Allowing the dog to run with other dogs may have the dog make associations that are not wanted by the trainer . Some dogs may make a proper association and some may not . Why would you risk a possible bad association and have no guarantee of the outcome ?

[Cajun Casey]

Maybe it depends on the individual trainer, dog(s) and goals. I find running puppies with experienced dogs, whether as a brace or pack helps their dog manners immensely.

[JIM K]

beagles we raised it worked ok.i think for start, its not bad thing to do. i think your pup will learn quicker.
i would not do it for months,maybe a few times then STOP.

[Winchey]

Doesn't happen very often but I am going to have to go with Ezzy on this one.

[ezzy333]

"Run the pup with older dogs".... This can diminish a pup's confidence and independence. In beagle packs for example , he can turn into a follower.

You may not recommend it but that is how many are treained. I think there is a place for it with some pups just like there is for most other ways of training.

Ezzy

Ezzy -

C'mon now. That is a pretty dumb thing to say. I know you know better than that. As my momma used to ask:" If ten guys jump off a bridge in front of you, does that mean you should too?"

Just because a lot of dogs are trained(or untrained as the case may be) by running two dogs together, that does not mean it is the best way to go.

There are certain things I will do with an older trained dog and a young pupil. There are certain things that a dog can teach another dog much better than I can. However, most of the time, for most things, I consider it good procedure to train a youngster alone.

RayG

Ray you said the same thing I did only you were more explicit.

[jcbuttry8]

We used a 4 year old GSP with Kona. She has a great run for the tree lines and she breaks away beautifully. so, we would hold Kona a few seconds at the break and the let her go. It worked for her. She now has a great break away. She doesn't even look at the other dog. When she goes she goes. No tail grabbing like most pups do at a break away. She seems to have picked up what we expected for her running with an older more experienced dog. it seemed to give her a drive for competition and the run. She doesn't seem to have an issue shadowing. She is very independant. She now out runs the GSP that helped her get there.

I think it depends on the dog and the age. We started her off at around 8 to 9 mos old. We only did it once or no more than twice a week. The other two or three trips out she ran by herself. You just can't over do it. I completely expect to bring the next one along the same way, and hopefully he will be around here by August.

Joe

[ACooper]

There is more than one way to skin a cat, with that said there is a lot of what I consider questionable "training advice" given on these boards, I can see where it would be difficult to for a new person to differentiate, what works and what doesn't.

I will run a young dog with an older dog to build confidence etc.

[DonF]

There are pro's and con's with running a pup with an older dog. It can be over done and you could well in up with a trailer. That being a pup that has watched the older dog do to much and is content to sit back and trail the older dog. Often looks like the pup is doing well backing but, it is not hunting, it's just trailing a dog doing it right. At the same time, some running a pup with an older dog is a plus. The lolder dog will lead the pup to where it finds birds. Will lead the pup into different types of cover. When running a pup with an older dog, I never put out birds; any they might find will be wild. Another good place for the pup is on a stake out where it can watch the older dog work.

Best use of an older dog for me is giving the pup confidence to get away from me, go into cover and become more independent. Pretty much all the running I've done with a pup and an adult dog has been happy timing.

Beware of a faral flaw with running a pup with an afult on birds. If the older dog get's it's bird taken out by the pup, the pup might get a bit more disapline than you might like. Some adult dogs can be very posessive of their birds. My Hannah was. If a pup or older dog took her bird, tried to gey by her or sniffed at a dead bird in her mouth, it got a butt whipping. She never did those things to another dog and expected the same in return. She was a super girl tied for my number one dog all time. Never a problem with her and another dog unless it encroached on her.

Bottom line get's back to where everything ends up with in dog handling, learn to read your dog. Don'y buy the idea that the older dog always beats the pup to the bird, that is BS. Sometimes if the pup is hunting on it's own, it actually beats the older dog. Like other things, learn to recognize trailing.

[Ranger351]

Ok so if I have an older dog and a new pup should I hunt them together or separately?

[bb560m]

Ok so if I have an older dog and a new pup should I hunt them together or separately?

Depends on the dog. Try it out. Like people have said - you don't want to produce a follower. If it's competitive and looking to be out in front and hunting on it's own then I think it would be beneficial.

[birddogger]

It seems to me that most everybody is saying pretty much the same thing, just wording it a little different. The main thing is to just make sure that pup is allowed to gain it's independence and confidence. I used to hunt with a guy who had a beautiful young shorthair with, IMO, tons of potential and natural ability. The thing is, this pup had only ran and hunted with his older dog and had never ran alone. This pup was a perfect natural retriever and solid backer with a lot of style. The only problem was, I never once saw this pup find and point a bird on his own. I thought it was a shame that he was probably never going to reach his full potential, but since his owner seemed to be plenty happy with his performance, I kept my mouth shut. Bottom line is just read the dog and use some common sense. JMO.

Charlie

[Sharon]

Well said.

[Francois P vd Walt]

And away they go !

Running pups in braces and with older dogs helps to get them fit and turn wistles they turn when the older dogs turn ...
Imo not a good thing, pup doesn't learn to hunt, but gives them fun times this is also importend in the life we live in with everything that has to happen now ! Now generation !

All good things come to he who waits.

[ezzy333]

And away they go !

Running pups in braces and with older dogs helps to get them fit and turn wistles they turn when the older dogs turn ...
Imo not a good thing, pup doesn't learn to hunt, but gives them fun times this is also importend in the life we live in with everything that has to happen now ! Now generation !

All good things come to he who waits.

Do both and watch the pup to see how it is progressing

[gonehuntin']

It seems to me that most everybody is saying pretty much the same thing, just wording it a little different. The main thing is to just make sure that pup is allowed to gain it's independence and confidence. I used to hunt with a guy who had a beautiful young shorthair with, IMO, tons of potential and natural ability. The thing is, this pup had only ran and hunted with his older dog and had never ran alone. This pup was a perfect natural retriever and solid backer with a lot of style. The only problem was, I never once saw this pup find and point a bird on his own. I thought it was a shame that he was probably never going to reach his full potential, but since his owner seemed to be plenty happy with his performance, I kept my mouth shut. Bottom line is just read the dog and use some common sense. JMO.

Charlie

+1. If I have a pup, I'll let him run with an older dog a couple of times a week to increase his range. Once he ranges, I never run a youngster with an older dog. If the dog ranges well on his own, there is nothing he can learn from an older dog.

I also believe a dog turns into a great hunting dog the more he is run and the more he is run alone.

[Ralph Ford]

Running dogs and training dogs aren't always the same. I run young dogs with a speedy partner as part of my normal puppy development. I think it imprints speed and brush busting on the young dog.

[slistoe]

"Run the pup with older dogs".... This can diminish a pup's confidence and independence. In beagle packs for example , he can turn into a follower.

This rates about equivalent with "Take your pup to the gun range for conditioning." as far as advice goes. Sure, everyone knows someone who has done it without ill effect, but the downside isn't worth the upside for general application.

[BHC]

My grandad had three pointers, the youngest he trained by running with the older two. Was a great dog (well behaved) but never pointed a bird himself. He would only point when one of the others did. That is, unless you left the other two at home... He did jus fine when it was just you and him take one of the others and he'd only back them...

[Sharon]

"Run the pup with older dogs".... This can diminish a pup's confidence and independence. In beagle packs for example , he can turn into a follower.

This rates about equivalent with "Take your pup to the gun range for conditioning." as far as advice goes. Sure, everyone knows someone who has done it without ill effect, but the downside isn't worth the upside for general application.

I'm not sure if i have been insulted or have had my position affirmed?

[birddogger]

"Run the pup with older dogs".... This can diminish a pup's confidence and independence. In beagle packs for example , he can turn into a follower.

This rates about equivalent with "Take your pup to the gun range for conditioning." as far as advice goes. Sure, everyone knows someone who has done it without ill effect, but the downside isn't worth the upside for general application.

I'm not sure if i have been insulted or have had my position affirmed?

I don't want to answer for somebody else but I will anyway . The way I read it, he is talking about the advice "run the pup with older dogs". In other words, he is agreeing with you.

Charlie

[slistoe]

My apologies for the confusion Sharon. birddogger got it.

[JIM K]

Ok so if I have an older dog and a new pup should I hunt them together or separately?

some older dogs will run away from new dog, i had dogs that did this.just see how it works out.

[SeniorCoot]

I have always run older and younger dogs together- oNCE young guy has basics down but then I'm one of those dolts who also use trap range for part of gun intro-I guess I'm just stupid oh well at 72 i don't have too many more dogs to ruin-Duh. By the way i also always ran my young long distance sled dogs with older ones on short training runs.