wire cone for dizzy birds

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TM79
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wire cone for dizzy birds

Post by TM79 » Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:07 pm

Hi everybody,

I saw this video online ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-owRh1stfM ) and was wondering if anybody have had any experience with this wire cones for planted dizzy birds. They use this cones in transition towards the more natural field situation after the dogs had learned to point and "work" the launchers. Here is my question: Could this be used to start with? Since this would be the "closest" to the field.

I know that remote launchers are the best option, because you have full control , but they are very expensive and for the ONE dog training this could be a "simple solution". I think the wire could prevent the dog from catching the bird and also let the bird fly if pressured... maybe??

I'm not a trainer ... I'm just getting my first point dog this summer and I'm trying to do my home work learning as much as I can from you all (and youtube lol).

Let me know what you all think!!
Thanks,
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Re: wire cone for dizzy birds

Post by Sharon » Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:56 pm

I thought that was a very thought -provoking video.
Interesting to see another use for the launcher.

Not sure if the cage is needed. That bird would have stayed asleep on the ground. Maybe I missed something in the use of the cage.
I'd like to see the transitioning video.

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Re: wire cone for dizzy birds

Post by TM79 » Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:16 pm

Sharon wrote:I thought that was a very thought -provoking video.
Interesting to see another use for the launcher.

Not sure if the cage is needed. That bird would have stayed asleep on the ground. Maybe I missed something in the use of the cage.
I'd like to see the transitioning video.

Welcome to the forum.
We can always use another vet. :)

Thanks for the response!!! This learning process is great, I'm excited and overwhelmed at the same time!!! lol
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Re: wire cone for dizzy birds

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Apr 17, 2012 2:20 am

I also don't see the cone doing anything you can't do with out it. Maybe I am missing something but what did it do? I guess I just don't see the need for it at all.

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Re: wire cone for dizzy birds

Post by topher40 » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:57 am

The only thing the cone did was to prevent the pheasant from running away. This could have easily been done with the launcher also. :roll: When trying to re-invent the wheel I wish people would at minimum come up with a better wheel. :lol: No sense in using the locate on the launcher to "get the dog to point" either. How many times are they going to be out hunting when a bird makes a loud, digital, "beep"? The issue is not teaching the dog to point, it is how to handle the bird.
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Re: wire cone for dizzy birds

Post by DogNewbie » Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:36 am

topher40 wrote:The only thing the cone did was to prevent the pheasant from running away. This could have easily been done with the launcher also. :roll: When trying to re-invent the wheel I wish people would at minimum come up with a better wheel. :lol: No sense in using the locate on the launcher to "get the dog to point" either. How many times are they going to be out hunting when a bird makes a loud, digital, "beep"? The issue is not teaching the dog to point, it is how to handle the bird.
I was thinking the same thing about the beep...the only thing I could think of was if he was planning on using a beeper collar in the field....still seems silly to me though

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Re: wire cone for dizzy birds

Post by Coveyrise64 » Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:28 am

It forces the bird to fly instead of running off to escape the pressure. Nothing more frustrating than thrashing around in crp trying to locate a pen raised bird that is on the move. Might not be a better wheel but at least his isn't flat......I applaud his efforts for thinking outside the box. I can do without the beeper though..... :?

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Re: wire cone for dizzy birds

Post by TM79 » Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:08 pm

Coveyrise64 wrote:It forces the bird to fly instead of running off to escape the pressure. Nothing more frustrating than thrashing around in crp trying to locate a pen raised bird that is on the move. Might not be a better wheel but at least his isn't flat......I applaud his efforts for thinking outside the box. I can do without the beeper though..... :?

cr
That's what I thought too. I also think it could help prevent the dog from catching the bird in case of "unfinished"/young dogs. The beeper unnecessary to me !!

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Re: wire cone for dizzy birds

Post by 4dabirds » Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:44 pm

He has trained the dog to whoa on the beeper, this way if he sees the dog has caught first scent and does not stop he can stop the dog from roading in on the bird. Since he is transitioning from the launcher to the cage which will be different to the dog he needs to do this because he can not launch the bird if the dog roads in. I am assuming that he has been using pigeons in the small launcher and he wants to teach the dog the same is expected when the dog encounters a pheasant.He is guaranteeing the outcome by knowing the bird will not relocate and the dog will be successful . I think the cage is a great idea , it allows the full scent of the bird to get out but not the bird. Pheasants are expensive ! This all relies on the fact that the dog has been worked on birds in a launcher and has been conditioned to stop to the sound of the beeper . This would not be a place to start out with your dog. There is a lot of training before you get to this point. The only thing I would say is wrong with this in my opinion is that i would teach whoa to a whistle or voice command. If you want to run the dog with a beeper, the stop to the beeper may confuse the dog, although I also would concede that with a little work the dog would discern the difference between the two beepers.

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Re: wire cone for dizzy birds

Post by JIM K » Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:38 pm

nice idea.i did about same thing but i velcro the wings on pigeon and dropped them in brush while training toby my lab.i used rop and tied it to laural,then i went in and released the pigeon.
i even shot pigeons at times while toby was tied to laural.

cone keeps bird from running,nice idea.if dog gets there and bird does not flush, he cant grab bird.

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Re: wire cone for dizzy birds

Post by brad27 » Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:52 pm

A dog stopping to the sound of the beep is not the same as pointing.

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Re: wire cone for dizzy birds

Post by 4dabirds » Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:50 am

What makes you think that brad .

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Re: wire cone for dizzy birds

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:42 am

4dabirds wrote:What makes you think that brad .
Surely you jest. Whoa mens stand still, while point is the stop when they smell something. No relation to each other. Thats why most good trainer do not even utter the term Whoa when around birds.

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Re: wire cone for dizzy birds

Post by brad27 » Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:37 pm

4dabirds wrote:What makes you think that brad .
One's genetic, the other is taught.

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Re: wire cone for dizzy birds

Post by 4dabirds » Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:59 pm

Ezzy after reading brads point I started to think about what I said in relation to the whoa command. I think I underestimated the significance of the beeper. For one thing the beeper is near the bird. Although it is similar to saying whoa it is not the same. The dog has been conditioned to point the beeper. In the dogs mind the beeper is another stimuli just like scent or sight to know there is a bird present. It really is quite ingenious. He is able to guarantee the outcome of the drill without putting any pressure on the dog in th presence of the bird. The thing that is genetic is the dog is using a cue which is sent to point the bird the beeper is another cue the dog learns to recognize.

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Re: wire cone for dizzy birds

Post by DogNewbie » Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:16 pm

4dabirds wrote:Ezzy after reading brads point I started to think about what I said in relation to the whoa command. I think I underestimated the significance of the beeper. For one thing the beeper is near the bird. Although it is similar to saying whoa it is not the same. The dog has been conditioned to point the beeper. In the dogs mind the beeper is another stimuli just like scent or sight to know there is a bird present. It really is quite ingenious. He is able to guarantee the outcome of the drill without putting any pressure on the dog in th presence of the bird. The thing that is genetic is the dog is using a cue which is sent to point the bird the beeper is another cue the dog learns to recognize.
It's a flawed system because wild birds don't beep. Sight, scent, sound are the only situmli the dog will ever encounter in a real situation so what's the point of using the beeper to initiate a "point." I could understand using the beeper after the dogs finds the bird and points if he's planning on using a beeper collar in the field but before point makes no sense.

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Re: wire cone for dizzy birds

Post by brad27 » Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:31 pm

4dabirds wrote:Ezzy after reading brads point I started to think about what I said in relation to the whoa command. I think I underestimated the significance of the beeper. For one thing the beeper is near the bird. Although it is similar to saying whoa it is not the same. The dog has been conditioned to point the beeper. In the dogs mind the beeper is another stimuli just like scent or sight to know there is a bird present. It really is quite ingenious. He is able to guarantee the outcome of the drill without putting any pressure on the dog in th presence of the bird. The thing that is genetic is the dog is using a cue which is sent to point the bird the beeper is another cue the dog learns to recognize.
No offence, but I think you've spent too much time reading books and thinking about theories then actually training dogs.

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Re: wire cone for dizzy birds

Post by 4dabirds » Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:44 pm

The pre cue becomes the cue

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Re: wire cone for dizzy birds

Post by 4dabirds » Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:51 pm

brad27 wrote:No offence, but I think you've spent too much time reading books and thinking about theories then actually training dogs.
Re: wire cone for dizzy birds
wow ignorance and insults too. You should try reading a book sometime I promise it will not hurt your brain.

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Re: wire cone for dizzy birds

Post by 4dabirds » Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:13 pm

The only thing that is flawed is your understanding of what is going on in the video The beeper is sound, that is stimuli . He is not trying to teach the dog to point , the dog already does that on its own. He is creating a cue with the beeper to guarantee that the dog will not road in on the bird . This way the dog will be successful on its first repetition in the presence of a pheasant. The dog will not road in on the bird , it will not need a correction of an e - collar, it does not need to be on a check-cord. The dog is alerted to the birds presence with the beeper at the moment it hits the scent cone. With a few repetitions the dog will learn to anticipate the sound of the beeper and stop on the scent . The scent is the pre-cue which becomes the cue. It is simply a way to transition the dog from one scenario " the pigeon in the launcher" to the pheasant on the ground. No big theories here just simple basic dog training techniques .

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Re: wire cone for dizzy birds

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:19 pm

4dabirds wrote:Ezzy after reading brads point I started to think about what I said in relation to the whoa command. I think I underestimated the significance of the beeper. For one thing the beeper is near the bird. Although it is similar to saying whoa it is not the same. The dog has been conditioned to point the beeper. In the dogs mind the beeper is another stimuli just like scent or sight to know there is a bird present. It really is quite ingenious. He is able to guarantee the outcome of the drill without putting any pressure on the dog in th presence of the bird. The thing that is genetic is the dog is using a cue which is sent to point the bird the beeper is another cue the dog learns to recognize.
My point is if I have to use a "CUE" to get a dog to point then the dog shouldn't be there till it learns to point birds all by itself. I see many posts where you quote Wilcox and say to not confuse a dog with different "CUES" for the same job such as you have been saying about fetching. And I think you are right then and just as wrong here when you say it is great to give the dog a different way to know a bird is present. Should we just keep the dog at heel till we can find a bird and blow the whistle, the dog points and we call the judge and get credit for a find which didn't happen, get credit for a point, which didn't happen, and go home overjoyed our dog did such a wonderful job, or might it be better to let the dog hunt, find it's own bird, point the bird, and give us the chance to catch up since the dog is ranging well out of "CUE" range, and either call point for the judge or maybe just take a few pics before we walk in flush the bird and reap our harvest with no "CUES" even needed.

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Re: wire cone for dizzy birds

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:23 pm

brad27 wrote:
4dabirds wrote:Ezzy after reading brads point I started to think about what I said in relation to the whoa command. I think I underestimated the significance of the beeper. For one thing the beeper is near the bird. Although it is similar to saying whoa it is not the same. The dog has been conditioned to point the beeper. In the dogs mind the beeper is another stimuli just like scent or sight to know there is a bird present. It really is quite ingenious. He is able to guarantee the outcome of the drill without putting any pressure on the dog in th presence of the bird. The thing that is genetic is the dog is using a cue which is sent to point the bird the beeper is another cue the dog learns to recognize.
No offence, but I think you've spent too much time reading books and thinking about theories then actually training dogs.
Amen. Talk about overthinking every situation and trying to convince us of what the dog is thinking seems a little overboard to me, especially from someone who never has an original thought but quotes Wilcox with practically every post.

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Re: wire cone for dizzy birds

Post by birddogger » Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:02 pm

brad27 wrote:A dog stopping to the sound of the beep is not the same as pointing.
Exactly right!

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Re: wire cone for dizzy birds

Post by TM79 » Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:41 pm

Wowww. ... What about the WIRE CONE ??!!!! lol :D
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Re: wire cone for dizzy birds

Post by 4dabirds » Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:44 am

Ezzy This video is not about teaching a dog to point its about guaranteeing success on the dogs first pheasant . If you live in a place like me where pheasant are pen raised only and cost $30 each this is very helpful. And don't get so riled up it ruins your ability to spell.

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Re: wire cone for dizzy birds

Post by DonF » Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:45 am

I don't understand the cone if the bird was put to sleep? What's the point? My launcher doesn't have a beeper, I've never had a set with a beeper. The beeper is a gimic to me even if it does work and obviously it works. Lot's of things work, but many are taking the long way around the barn! Weather that's good or bad depends on how you feel as an individual. I would say that using a pheasant like that in the first place is not what I would do. A pheasant planted will run on the dog but it's doubtfull the dog will catch it. To much pressure and the pheasant flush's. Of course with pen raised, to much cover and maybe the bird over stays it's welcome.

That video seem's to be nothing more than the way one guy figured out what he wants to do and it is off the beaten path. Hard to say it doesn't work. I would say though that I would not try it that way. If you try it and it works for you, great!
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Re: wire cone for dizzy birds

Post by AzDoggin » Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:09 am

Where can I read this "Wilcox" that Ezzy keeps referring to?

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Re: wire cone for dizzy birds

Post by DogNewbie » Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:54 am

TM79 wrote:Wowww. ... What about the WIRE CONE ??!!!! lol :D
I think I would use the cone only if I was running a dog that I knew was steady on pheasants....or if I had a helper maybe run a non steady dog on a cc..could be a good transition from launchers to running birds though
4dabirds wrote:Ezzy This video is not about teaching a dog to point its about guaranteeing success on the dogs first pheasant . If you live in a place like me where pheasant are pen raised only and cost $30 each this is very helpful. And don't get so riled up it ruins your ability to spell.
I think you're point is that this method tells the dog ahead of time that there is a bird to point close by, thus creating a situation where the dog won't fail when introducing a new bird. However, to get to that point, you have to condition the dog to associate a beep with "oh there's a bird close by, I want to find it." Why would you ever want to teach a dog that a beep means there's a bird out there to find? All I can see resulting from that is the dog associating birds with beeps and since there aren't beeps in the wild the dog isn't going to be actively searching for birds....that's why it's flawed IMO

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Re: wire cone for dizzy birds

Post by brad27 » Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:31 am

There is nothing wrong with a dog failing.

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Re: wire cone for dizzy birds

Post by AzDoggin » Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:05 pm

brad27 wrote:There is nothing wrong with a dog failing.
Agree. Also nothing wrong with discussing "out of the box" dog training ideas, even if it doesn't seem they'll fit anyone's particular system.

Diversity of idea is one of the things that makes this board useful, IMO.

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Re: wire cone for dizzy birds

Post by Coveyrise64 » Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:11 pm

brad27 wrote:There is nothing wrong with a dog failing.
True, but only if it is followed up with a correction..... :|

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Re: wire cone for dizzy birds

Post by TM79 » Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:19 pm

Agree. Also nothing wrong with discussing "out of the box" dog training ideas, even if it doesn't seem they'll fit anyone's particular system.

Diversity of idea is one of the things that makes this board useful, IMO.[/quote]


Agree... all this discussion is great ... specially for newbies like myself. Thank you
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Re: wire cone for dizzy birds

Post by gonehuntin' » Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:49 pm

A bone head of a trainer. Talk about defeating the entire purpose of a launcher.

He better get back to dog training 101 or go apprentice with a trainer.
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Re: wire cone for dizzy birds

Post by h&t » Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:09 pm

I'll cast my vote :-) I don't like it. It's a game with no purpose that I can see :-)
I've seen a lot of good stuff from that kennel, not this video.
To the OP - here's an article what you could do with wire cages :-)

http://www.rospigan.se/scentpointing2.htm

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Re: wire cone for dizzy birds

Post by brad27 » Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:10 pm

I see the potential problem of the dog sight pointing wire cones if used too much.

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Re: wire cone for dizzy birds

Post by TM79 » Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:05 pm

h&t wrote:I'll cast my vote :-) I don't like it. It's a game with no purpose that I can see :-)
I've seen a lot of good stuff from that kennel, not this video.
To the OP - here's an article what you could do with wire cages :-)

http://www.rospigan.se/scentpointing2.htm
Thanks for the article !!
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Re: wire cone for dizzy birds

Post by TM79 » Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:09 pm

brad27 wrote:I see the potential problem of the dog sight pointing wire cones if used too much.
I guess too much of anything would be bad ... Wouldn't this be the case for launchers too? It's a lot more "bulky" than the cone! I think the key word is "too much" !
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Re: wire cone for dizzy birds

Post by h&t » Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:58 am

TM79 wrote:
brad27 wrote:I see the potential problem of the dog sight pointing wire cones if used too much.
I guess too much of anything would be bad ... Wouldn't this be the case for launchers too? It's a lot more "bulky" than the cone! I think the key word is "too much" !
launchers are usually hidden from dog's view in vegetation, so sight pointing is not an issue.
Dogs pointing empty launchers (scent) could be...

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Re: wire cone for dizzy birds

Post by DonF » Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:56 am

brad27 wrote:I see the potential problem of the dog sight pointing wire cones if used too much.
I am not going to rush out and buy up wire cages but the idea that the dog running around pointing them would not be correct. How many wire cages have you ever seen in the field hunting? And if your talking about durning training, so what. Long as you end up with the desired response, it works. If your afraid they might, then set out some mty cages with loaded ones. A dog with a decent nose will not smell aq bird in a wire cage. I use home made foot traps foe pigeons, the dogs never point an mty one. Years ago I marked my traps with surveyors tape so I could keep track of them. Onr dog, Lefty, figured it out pretty quick and went out looking for tape. I moved the tape away from the trap aways so I still could keep track of the trap and that ended that, he went back to using his nose!

A guy on here told me of his trap. MTY shoebox with some hole's cut in it and a long string tied to it a buddy pulled at the right time. Pretty darn good thinking. He shot a hundred and some birds over that dog it's first year after that training, must have worked! Lot's of things work if they are what you have and you won't know if they will or not until you try them. All good ideas are not in a book!
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AzDoggin
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Location: AZ desert

Re: wire cone for dizzy birds

Post by AzDoggin » Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:00 am

h&t wrote:I'll cast my vote :-) I don't like it. It's a game with no purpose that I can see :-)
I've seen a lot of good stuff from that kennel, not this video.
To the OP - here's an article what you could do with wire cages :-)

http://www.rospigan.se/scentpointing2.htm
Some very good information in that article, IMO.

Here's another low-tech bird releaser. This one does require a human foot to tip it though:

Image

Ben Garcia makes his own - just builds a box with hardware cloth and spot welds a couple re-bar strips on the top of it for weight (so the bird can't escape by itself). He puts the bird down and just lowers the "cage" contraption over the bird. Plenty of scent can get out.

I agree with the tall cone - especially with the ribbons on it - the dog could get to sight pointing in a hurry if used to excess.

h&t
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 93
Joined: Thu May 26, 2011 6:00 pm
Location: ON, Canada

Re: wire cone for dizzy birds

Post by h&t » Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:11 pm

Here's another way to release a bird without high tech launchers.
the vid is in Frensh dubbed to Russian, but never mind - you can see what's going on :D


http://youtu.be/pKh1vsoSkbE

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DonF
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Location: Antelope, Ore

Re: wire cone for dizzy birds

Post by DonF » Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:47 am

AzDoggin wrote:
h&t wrote:I'll cast my vote :-) I don't like it. It's a game with no purpose that I can see :-)
I've seen a lot of good stuff from that kennel, not this video.
To the OP - here's an article what you could do with wire cages :-)

http://www.rospigan.se/scentpointing2.htm
Some very good information in that article, IMO.

Here's another low-tech bird releaser. This one does require a human foot to tip it though:

Image

Ben Garcia makes his own - just builds a box with hardware cloth and spot welds a couple re-bar strips on the top of it for weight (so the bird can't escape by itself). He puts the bird down and just lowers the "cage" contraption over the bird. Plenty of scent can get out.

I agree with the tall cone - especially with the ribbons on it - the dog could get to sight pointing in a hurry if used to excess.
This is where I got the idea for mine from. I made some similar years ago but they didn't tip over well and they were heavy. Now I have them with a block of wood on both ends cut into a semi-circle and 1/2x1/2 wire mesh over them. They were to light so unless They had something uver them to hold the pigeon down, the pigeon would struggle a bit and get right out. Covered with dead grass the bird stayed calm and in the trap. Finally I tried stapleing 1/8x1" strips of old wood across them, solid over the top and 1 ' seperation on the sides. Works great. I also put a 1x1 1/2" piece of wood on the ends. Stick my toe under it and juct pick the trap off the bird.

BTW, I don't dizzy birds I put in them.
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!

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SetterNut
Rank: 4X Champion
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Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2011 10:16 am
Location: Manhattan, KS

Re: wire cone for dizzy birds

Post by SetterNut » Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:46 pm

I can see some benifits of the wire cone. I have had some pen raised quail that would not flush very easy. The dang things would just run around or get under the grass.

However the use of the beeper is not something that I would do. I don't see it as being any different than using a whoa command to get the dog to point. I feel that is counter productive, The dog has to stop and point on scent. I don't use whoa to get the dog to point. In my way of thinking if the dog has to be told whoa to not move on point. they are not honest on thier birds and are not going to be reliable enough to be trusted on birds when out of sight.

If a dog is not pointing or creeping, I put the dog on birds in a launcher (or wild birds), if the dog moves, up goes the bird. Repeat until the dog learns to stand and not move when on scent.
Steve

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