Chasing Birds

[roaner]

I sent my dog to a trainer and after 3 months got him back last Friday. The trainer I picked is considered one of the better trainers in my area. After the first month the trainer had remarked that my dog was not pointing all that well and would try to rip the birds out. He also ran hard and would often out run his nose and bump birds. He was doing well on the stop to flush. He progressed and started pointing birds towards the end but was still running over them. He's got a decent nose and when he's in the wind, he picks them up. He was trained only on pigeon by this trainer but I've had him on mearns myself.

He's an energetic dog and needs to run so I take him to a short grass field near my house. The field has trash birds and doves and he loves LOVES to chase them. I was told it wouldn't be a problem if I didn't make a big deal out of it. When I first got him back and we went to the grass field he actually pointed two doves, which I heeled him off of. This morning I took him into the desert and we walked into a pair of gambels. I spotted them but the moved out of sight as he worked into that area, next thing I know they flushed and he was chasing. My fear is that he's regressed back to before I sent him to training.

So my question then is taking him to the grass field and allowing him to run and chase trash birds having a negative impact on his desire to point?

[Brittguy]

How old is he?

[roaner]

He's 13 months now.

[AzDoggin]

It does seem to me that you and the trainer may have had expectations a little too high for a 10 month old pup. At 13 months he's still an adolescent even. The specialists (pointers and setters) often point that early, but many times the versatiles are older by the time they are holding point.

The good news is that your dog is birdy and runs well. I assume that was the main goal of having the pup with the trainer at 10 mos.

(oh, and those "bleep" Gambel's are brutal on young dogs when you are trying to staunch them up. Track athletes...)

As for continued chasing, there is actually a ton of information on this board - do a search for chasing. Heres' one of many informative posts that you'll find:

Re: Up to what age can pups play in the field ?
by cjhills » Tue May 01, 2012 5:30 am

My answer to the question is 'til they die. Our dogs go for a run in the field almost every day of their lives. They know it's play time and hunt chipmunks and chase anything that will run. 7 of them are AKC Master titled dogs and were doing this while they ran there tests they know the difference. there is no disipline on these walks. except recall and heel on the way home and they are not allowed to chase deer. Because in my neighborhood dogs die young for that. They are free to do what ever they want.
Also if you have to punish you have missed something. In spite of how it seems dogs don't do things just to piss us off. .
We also start whoa training at their food dish and kennel door, in and out at a very young age 8 to 10 weeks. We like the training to sneak up on the pup so one day when he is running you in the field you tell him whoa and he stops because thats what he has always done, not because he was forced to. Conditioned response. Thanks CJ

[DonF]

Sounds to me like it just hasn't started using it's nose yet. Without a reason ot why should it? You probably don't have much for cover down there and the pup has learned to hunt with it's eye's.

[AzDoggin]

That is what it sounds like, Don.

Gambels in the desert do encourage sight-hunting - lots of open cover and the birds scurrying all over heck. They make ME want to chase them...

We need Kninebirddog to weigh in on this one - you out there, Knine?

[Sharon]

I sent my dog to a trainer and after 3 months got him back last Friday. The trainer I picked is considered one of the better trainers in my area. After the first month the trainer had remarked that my dog was not pointing all that well and would try to rip the birds out. He also ran hard and would often out run his nose and bump birds. He was doing well on the stop to flush. He progressed and started pointing birds towards the end but was still running over them. He's got a decent nose and when he's in the wind, he picks them up. He was trained only on pigeon by this trainer but I've had him on mearns myself.

He's an energetic dog and needs to run so I take him to a short grass field near my house. The field has trash birds and doves and he loves LOVES to chase them. I was told it wouldn't be a problem if I didn't make a big deal out of it. When I first got him back and we went to the grass field he actually pointed two doves, which I heeled him off of. This morning I took him into the desert and we walked into a pair of gambels. I spotted them but the moved out of sight as he worked into that area, next thing I know they flushed and he was chasing. My fear is that he's regressed back to before I sent him to training.

So my question then is taking him to the grass field and allowing him to run and chase trash birds having a negative impact on his desire to point?

No.
Normally a dog needs to run and learn he can't catch a bird. he then starts to creep and then point. ( Assuming he wasn't trained on birds he could catch.)
Did you have the dog the whole 13 months - except for the trainer? Chasing should be over by now and the dog should steadying up and ready for a CC.
Even though the trainer was not successful , I'm sure he did his best . I would press him for what he "really thinks".

It may be your pup doesn't have what it takes. It may be he is a late bloomer and will blossom later. I think it is too soon to give up.

[Francois P vd Walt]

Sounds the pup has drive likes birds maybe still little immature. Agree to only have been exposed to visual birds by what I read. Maybe hide birds in thick grass in a cage then he will have to start using nose, he has to learn on his own he can not catch those birds that fly away .....

Good luck remember don't give command if you can not enforce it !
Always end a training session happy !

[roaner]

Thanks for the insightful replies. I'm still going through some of the other threads here.

I've had the pup from 7 weeks on with exception to the last 3 months. When he was about 12 weeks he was allowed to play with a locked wing pigeon one time and then gun broke. He has not caught a hobbled or otherwise less than wild bird that I know of. What leads me to believe I might be making some mistake is that I train with owners of two of his litter mates. I know not all pups in a litter turn out the same but he has a lot of other similar characteristics they do otherwise. His brother will have his first trial later this month and both him and his sister have a lot of point in them. His sister has the same trainer. He's really hard headed so maybe he is just a late bloomer. Sight hunting is a concern and cover is sparse in the phoenix area, but I will be hunting in much different cover for the most part. So then I would ask what ways can I get him to use his nose more short of driving a few hours to train in similar cover? Scent on bumpers?

[AzDoggin]

roaner, I think you have plenty of reason to hang in there with this pup. Sounds like his genetics are good...sometimes the hard headed ones end up being the best dogs - once they get it!!

How's his OB in general coming along?

George Hickox talks about working on the range of dogs by placing birds (pigeons) in roughly the range you want them to hunt. He uses launchers which allow complete control of when the bird flushes. Same with the Hamms in Perfect Start. If you can find some "somewhat" thicker cover, the pup will be forced to hunt more with his nose - take him cross-wind into the scent cone, then launch the bird the INSTANT pup breaks to flush it - sometimes earlier. You are simulating wild, spooky birds. Eventually he'll put 2+2 together and think "aha - the longer I pause, the more bird I get to smell." It could take quite a few birds to get him to begin slowing up an holding point given that he seems to want to bust all of them right now.

Careful about those "bleep" snakes out there this late in the spring. You coming across any?

Here's some opinions on pointing dogs running doves. You can see they are all over the place: viewtopic.php?f=89&t=35256&p=332797&hil ... ds#p332797

Some don't agree with this, but I play scent games with my dogs too. Drag a treat in increasingly longer paths and send him after the treat - he's completely using his nose here. It's fun for you and for the dogs. Later, they figure out how to use airborne scent just fine when hunting birds. Google "scent games for dogs" and you get all sorts of ideas...

Good luck.

[TM79]

[quote="AzDoggin"]
The good news is that your dog is birdy and runs well. I assume that was the main goal of having the pup with the trainer at 10 mos.

(oh, and those "bleep" Gambel's are brutal on young dogs when you are trying to staunch them up. Track athletes...)

Roaner, this is one of my concerns too. I'm a newbie to pointing training, I'm in Cave Creek as well and I have a LOT birds and Gambel's. I don't have my puppy home yet (another 6 looong weeks), but in all the readings I've done people say to expose the dogs to wild birds as much as you can. But as Roaner was saying will all this sight chasing affect (or delay) the pointing? Also should we not expose the puppys to Gambels since the run forever?

Roaner will pm you later, maybe we get together for some training around Cave Creek.

Thanks,
TM

[AzDoggin]

TM good question and I've asked it before re: Gambels.

I think the general consensus is the more wild bird exposure, the better for the pups - even hunt with them that first season, only shooting birds that they hold point over. Pups learn that they cannot catch birds unless they work with you, and you shoot the birds for them.

However, once you are going to break the dog, take him off the wild birds and break him completely with birds you have more control over. Then go back to hunting to "proof" your training...

Kninebirddog has some good information on this topic - you might PM her and get her take.

I'm glad to hear you guys are seeing some quail up there!! They are pretty sparse in many of my old spots.

[Sharon]

Thanks for the insightful replies. I'm still going through some of the other threads here.

I've had the pup from 7 weeks on with exception to the last 3 months. When he was about 12 weeks he was allowed to play with a locked wing pigeon one time and then gun broke. He has not caught a hobbled or otherwise less than wild bird that I know of. What leads me to believe I might be making some mistake is that I train with owners of two of his litter mates. I know not all pups in a litter turn out the same but he has a lot of other similar characteristics they do otherwise. His brother will have his first trial later this month and both him and his sister have a lot of point in them. His sister has the same trainer. He's really hard headed so maybe he is just a late bloomer. Sight hunting is a concern and cover is sparse in the phoenix area, but I will be hunting in much different cover for the most part. So then I would ask what ways can I get him to use his nose more short of driving a few hours to train in similar cover? Scent on bumpers?

jmo but 12 weeks is very early to break a pup to the gun. Is he avoiding birds so a gun doesn't go off? Just a thought . may not be valid.

( no scent on bumpers. lots of real birds ( Pigeons that can fly away. )

[roaner]

roaner, I think you have plenty of reason to hang in there with this pup. Sounds like his genetics are good...sometimes the hard headed ones end up being the best dogs - once they get it!!

How's his OB in general coming along?

George Hickox talks about working on the range of dogs by placing birds (pigeons) in roughly the range you want them to hunt. He uses launchers which allow complete control of when the bird flushes. Same with the Hamms in Perfect Start. If you can find some "somewhat" thicker cover, the pup will be forced to hunt more with his nose - take him cross-wind into the scent cone, then launch the bird the INSTANT pup breaks to flush it - sometimes earlier. You are simulating wild, spooky birds. Eventually he'll put 2+2 together and think "aha - the longer I pause, the more bird I get to smell." It could take quite a few birds to get him to begin slowing up an holding point given that he seems to want to bust all of them right now.

Careful about those "bleep" snakes out there this late in the spring. You coming across any?

Here's some opinions on pointing dogs running doves. You can see they are all over the place: viewtopic.php?f=89&t=35256&p=332797&hil ... ds#p332797

Some don't agree with this, but I play scent games with my dogs too. Drag a treat in increasingly longer paths and send him after the treat - he's completely using his nose here. It's fun for you and for the dogs. Later, they figure out how to use airborne scent just fine when hunting birds. Google "scent games for dogs" and you get all sorts of ideas...

Good luck.

In general his OB is great. It's probably one thing that I've done really well with him. I used Hickox method for teaching heel, here, and kennel etc. and he took to it very quickly. I started him on those at 6 months and he's been very good. Get's pretty excited and easily and struggles in those times of course. Each one is a training opportunity and he gets better each time.

I haven't seen much for rattlers this year. I did come across a dead coralsnake. Dog didn't pay any attention to it which I thought was odd because he normally loves dead birds, rodents, or anything for that matter. I still plan on doing the snake breaking. A buddy of mine did the anti-venom but supposedly that's not always effective.

[Crestonegsp]

Holy cow, he is just a puppy. I am wondering about a response from a trainer who says "my dog was not pointing all that well and would try to rip the birds out"? This is a good trainer? He is a puppy and that is what a puppies do. Not all 1 year old dogs are ready to be sent to a trainer, some need to grow up. Who is your trainer?

[ultracarry]

A year old dog should point birds without ripping them out... At least that would be my expectation.

[brad27]

What was the purpose of sending him to the trainer,or, what did the trainer say he was going to do with him for 3 months? What was going to be accomplished?

[Trekmoor]

I have owned and trained GSP's and brittanies and am now training a 14 months old vizzie pup. Several of those dogs ran "too fast for their nose" and bumped up birds especially when first released to hunt. I.M.O. dogs grow into their own legs and noses as they mature.
I train on rather sparse wild birds and the vizzie pup is only now beginning to point and hold her point. She used to chase every bird she found over the hills and far away and I let the birds themselves train her not to. Once I began to notice a diminishment in her speed and distance when chasing after birds was when I stepped in and did a bit more steadying training with her.

To be honest I rather like the sound of your dog. Given a lot of practice on wild birds or maybe pigeons from radio controlled release traps I think your dog could turn out to be a good one.
One of the brit pups I trained was a hard hunting and very reliable pointer of partridge by 5 months old but the other pups I trained reached her standard too although one or two of them took about a year more to do it. The "precocious" pup was hunted from weeks old in fields with loads of wild partridge for her to learn on. The other pups took longer because I no longer had those fields to train on.
Like the others who have posted on this thread I think giving your dog more chances to find game is the answer to your problem.

Bill T.

[kninebirddog]

Sorry I am chiming in here late
But there is a process where it helps dogs to be allowed to learn how to get the chase out and still be excited about birds
It is Rick and Ronnie Smith based method...Which I will help try to explain more a bit later
I PM'd you my # if you would like to talk a bit more about it
later when I have some time to post it in a bit more detail or at least find where I have discussed this before and paste it here

[AzDoggin]

Found some posts of yours on another forum, knine. Feel free to make changes, just thought I'd save you some digging...the title of the thread was "Chasing Not Pointing" - could well have been the title of this thread...sounds to me like you are whoa training the young dogs - maybe not "whoa breaking" per se, but training them enough to get some brakes on them so you can control them better in the field???

In the most recent Huntsmith DVD - Ronnie takes the dog off the whoa post into the field, and starts working on "taking out the chase." He does it in a gradual way with full attention on how the dog is reacting. Is this the process you are referring to? If so - it's on video too

Re: Chasing, Not Pointing
by kninebirddog » Mon Feb 15, 2010 8:08 pm

The method I work with young dogs that do not want to point go back to yard work and in the fiedl chasing birds they can't catch is fine I do the Smith Method of yard work and do the whoa post to teach a point of contact where the stimulation at the flank means to stand still

once i have this completely established with the dog then I go back to the field and flush birds where the dog has ntotbeen in scent cone when the dog begins to chase then i cue to stop ..i will keep working this until the dog begins to stop to flush again I CUE to STOP it isn't about shocking them there is a huge difference as cuing you are always using the lowest level that the dog will respond to not yelp and have a negative reaction to which this is established with the whoa training

anyways once the dog begins to stop to flush then i start to work scent cone and when the dog begins to head straight into bird i launch and repeat the rolls to stop if necessary

I do not cue to stop until we have fully worked at getting the chase out..to try and force to point before the dog has learned to stop the chase will quickly lead to flagging and if hammered on will lead to blinking

...

AGREED on the COMPLETE understanding of the Cue for whoa in the method I use

I use the Rick Smith Method of Whoa post and the dog does have complete understanding of the cue before we head to the field ... I prefer it as teaching the dog cues where they respond when cued keep the desire way up ...

http://www.huntsmith.com under the resources there is a 2 part article for the whoa post

...

try to keep your sessions shorter then her ability to remain focused...it isn't about the quantity as it is about the quality

put birds closer ..people have an innate ability to think that the birds should be far away and by the time your dog drags you 3/4ths the way into a field they are tired and unfocused