Moving Whoa from the table to the ground?

[Onk]

What is the best method of going from the table/barrel to the ground with the whoa command? Dog is very staunch on the table and when first set on the ground and whoa command is given, after that its pretty lame. I've seen both the rope and shock collar around the flank area methods, but was wondering what those of you here on the forum thought was the best way to make the transition. Thanks

[DonF]

I'm not into stuff around the dogs waist. I did see the Sherry Ray-Eberts video this weekend and she does a great job of explaining and showing. She doe's at times use the waist stuff. I don't know how well I can explain the move to the ground, really made good scents when I watched it though. Take the dog to the ground on a check cord and just start check cording it around. What your waiting for is the dog to come by you just right so you can give the whoa command, plull up on the check cord and drop your off hand down and around the waist and pick up on the waist and let it back down right away. One warning, learn to handle yoyr check cord. It's pretty easy but lot of people stumble on the check cord. Sherry worked it very well and set the dog up well and controlled the cc at the same time. It's really simple once you see it just remember, really learn to use the check cord. If your intrested in that videom I think Lion CVountry sells it. That is the first time I've ever seen anybody use the barrel that made any sense at all to me. She control's wobble of the barrel with her leg! Very good video and I would say worth the money just for the barrel demonstration.

I do not know sherry nor have I ever met her and I use the whoa post for teaching whoa. I'll continue to because I'm real comfortable with it. Just saying this because I don't carry water for her, she was very very good!

[RayGubernat]

I start heel/whoa drills before I start off the ground work(I use a bench) and I have never had a problem with the transition. Instead of a checkcord I use a pigging string(cheap version of a wonder lead) and find that works well.

I was never much for flank stuff either, but I saw what an area pro was able to accomplish when using a flank collar for advanced birdwork. I do believe I am going to incorporate the e-collar on the flank into my training in the future.

RayG

[4dabirds]

Dogs are place oriented this means the place you teach something is the cue for that command . They do not generalize well . This is learning a command in different places. When going from barrel to the ground it is helpful to the dog to transition with a place board. This becomes a new place and is easier for the dog to grasp. When training whoa you will have to make small transitions from each different place including yard to field. Avoid using correction on the dog as you are still teaching the command and the dog will be getting corrected for something it does not understand. When the dog is performing 8out of 10 times then it's ready for the collar. You will have to teach whoa coming and going , at heal when you stop or keep walking , they are all different for the dog.

[rinker]

I use an ecollar around the flank, but I also use a Buddy stick. I can use the stick to keep the dog from moving. This really helps the first few times on the ground and then I start using it less and less.

[4dabirds]

I use an ecollar around the flank, but I also use a Buddy stick. I can use the stick to keep the dog from moving. This really helps the first few times on the ground and then I start using it less and less.

The buddy stick is great for keeping the dog from coming towards you on whoa where the check cord is useless . It can be incorporated with the place board so you can walk ahead of the dog . These tools can and should be used when advancing to bird work , they offer another level of understanding to the dog and help you avoid using pressure when it is not necessary. An example of this is to drill the dog on birds using the barrel . When the dog hits the barrel launch a bird. The dog associates the barrel with standing still so he learns that standing still n
, not running in produces birds.

[DonF]

I use an ecollar around the flank, but I also use a Buddy stick. I can use the stick to keep the dog from moving. This really helps the first few times on the ground and then I start using it less and less.

The buddy stick is great for keeping the dog from coming towards you on whoa where the check cord is useless .

I think you have never used the whoa post to train whoa? Big missconception you have here. Using the cc properly I can keep a dog from leaving whoa and coming to me at about 20' away from me and, if the dog sits out there I can pick it up and stop it again before it moves forward. Never under estimate what can be done with a cc. Like all the other methods of teaching whoa, they all work if done properly. Absolutely nothing give's you a longer arm than a check cord.

If you wait till the dog is close enough to use the heeling stick, you've probably waited way to long with the correction.

[ezzy333]

I use an ecollar around the flank, but I also use a Buddy stick. I can use the stick to keep the dog from moving. This really helps the first few times on the ground and then I start using it less and less.

The buddy stick is great for keeping the dog from coming towards you on whoa where the check cord is useless .

I think you have never used the whoa post to train whoa? Big missconception you have here. Using the cc properly I can keep a dog from leaving whoa and coming to me at about 20' away from me and, if the dog sits out there I can pick it up and stop it again before it moves forward. Never under estimate what can be done with a cc. Like all the other methods of teaching whoa, they all work if done properly. Absolutely nothing give's you a longer arm than a check cord.

If you wait till the dog is close enough to use the heeling stick, you've probably waited way to long with the correction.

I like the post and two CC to control and teach the dog. It works very well and easy to use. I have never understood I guess the need for a place board as that is just another tool to carry and then you still have to break the dog off of it. But what ever works. I have little problem just teaching the dog whoa and using the E-collar to reinforce it once you have used the post to startthem.

Ezzy

[S&J gsp]

I would like to see some of the people bird hunt caring a place board a buddy stick a shotgun and trying to get all the things to line up right to shoot a bird and than take all the stuff off to send the dog for a retreive. What I always used was a check cord and birds. Whoa is later I am hunting a 4 year old junior hunter that has never learned whoa he will but till now I had no use for the command. A good recall is all I needed till I started running in trails

[S&J gsp]

I didn't mean to rant but to answer your question start just like you did on the table and than over lay the ecollar it works best to start with the dog walking along side you than add pressure as you give the command and come to a stop make them stand still for a few seconds than repeat may take a week or more to get them where you can stop them away from you

[4dabirds]

I didn't mean to rant but to answer your question start just like you did on the table and than over lay the ecollar it works best to start with the dog walking along side you than add pressure as you give the command and come to a stop make them stand still for a few seconds than repeat may take a week or more to get them where you can stop them away from you

Why would you use the collar on a command that is not trained. To me this is using correction to teach a command.

[4dabirds]

I use an ecollar around the flank, but I also use a Buddy stick. I can use the stick to keep the dog from moving. This really helps the first few times on the ground and then I start using it less and less.

The buddy stick is great for keeping the dog from coming towards you on whoa where the check cord is useless .

I think you have never used the whoa post to train whoa? Big missconception you have here. Using the cc properly I can keep a dog from leaving whoa and coming to me at about 20' away from me and, if the dog sits out there I can pick it up and stop it again before it moves forward. Never under estimate what can be done with a cc. Like all the other methods of teaching whoa, they all work if done properly. Absolutely nothing give's you a longer arm than a check cord.

If you wait till the dog is close enough to use the heeling stick, you've probably waited way to long with the correction.

When you have no whoa post the check cord is useless

[S&J gsp]

My dog has only got shocked two times last season, and I never said I use a whoa post and I dont need the ecollar some folks get pretty upset, when you go outside there mentors relm of training I also have the George Hickox DVDS but I also have others and dont get on here and quote word for word. Sorry for upsetting you but he asked a question I gave an answer. If you go back and read my answer to the question you will see I said overlay the ecollar I didn't say use just an ecollar I said give PRESSURE in the form of checkcord.

[4dabirds]

My dog has only got shocked two times last season, and I never said I use a whoa post and I dont need the ecollar some folks get pretty upset, when you go outside there mentors relm of training I also have the George Hickox DVDS but I also have others and dont get on here and quote word for word. Sorry for upsetting you but he asked a question I gave an answer. If you go back and read my answer to the question you will see I said overlay the ecollar I didn't say use just an ecollar I said give PRESSURE in the form of checkcord.

I think you miss the point I am trying to make. The original post was about how to transition to the ground from bench or barrel. If you think about the question first you should ask, what is the purpose of the barrel? In the beginning of training this command the dog does not know what the word whoa is. The dog is placed on the barrel and if he moves around he falls off. It is in the dogs best interest to stand still. In effect standing still on the barrel is a safe behavior. The dog does it because the dog wants to do it. There is no pressure on the dog. When this is coupled with reward this behavior is doubly beneficial. Since the dog is self motivated this behavior will likely be repeated by the dog. When the dog is on the ground in the absence of the barrel he still has no idea what the word whoa means so the board is a visual transition to the ground to give the dog a place to be put back to when he moves . When he is rewarded , this behavior also becomes beneficial to the dog. There should never be any pressure you are setting the dog up to succeed. When the dog succeeds he is rewarded. When this is done properly the dog will run to the board to get the reward. Once the dog is performing correctly remove the board, and the dog will have a better chance at understanding what you want without any pressure. Because no pressure is used this whoa training can start at a very young age. For a dog to fully understand the whoa command the expectation is that the dog will perform under any distraction. These tools can later be used when teaching advanced skills on birds to add another level of understanding to the dog. This is all designed to make it easier for the dog to understand what is expected and while I admit you can teach whoa with a pinch collar, a check cord , a whoa post ,or e-collar it is the behaviors that a dog finds most rewarding that the dog will gladly repeat.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

I use a pinch collar & CC,the dog also wears an e-collar while learning whoa with the CC & PC then I overlay the e-collar.Never had a problem using this method infact if you look at my avatar pic,it was taken after only 3 days of a couple 15 to 20 min sessions a day.I whoaed her took of all the training equipment,walked around her taking pics.Does it look like it was too much pressure?? Of course it helps to have a dog that wants to please!! I like to keep things as simple & uncomplicated as possible.

[DonF]

I use an ecollar around the flank, but I also use a Buddy stick. I can use the stick to keep the dog from moving. This really helps the first few times on the ground and then I start using it less and less.

The buddy stick is great for keeping the dog from coming towards you on whoa where the check cord is useless .

I think you have never used the whoa post to train whoa? Big missconception you have here. Using the cc properly I can keep a dog from leaving whoa and coming to me at about 20' away from me and, if the dog sits out there I can pick it up and stop it again before it moves forward. Never under estimate what can be done with a cc. Like all the other methods of teaching whoa, they all work if done properly. Absolutely nothing give's you a longer arm than a check cord.

If you wait till the dog is close enough to use the heeling stick, you've probably waited way to long with the correction.

When you have no whoa post the check cord is useless[/quote]

Whoa post is a figure of speach. I hase used fence post's and even car bumper's. The idea of the post is a solid point to hold the dog from behind, that is absolutely necessary. S&J mentioned over laying the e-collar. Every command used, if your going to use the e-collar must be taught first and then the command over laid with the e-collar.

I have no experience with the place board. My impression is that someone came up with a well meaning idea that just needs one more step to reach the end. If you take the dog to the place board only adds another step, at some point your gonna have to get the dog to understand that whoa is required even off the place board. I think a whole lot of these things designed to train a dog, while they work, are simply adding another step. Seem's like everyone that writes a new book, makes a new video or wants to put on a siminar has some greatest and latest method to show. Training a dog just isn't all that difficult that all these ideas are un-necessary. I use the whoa post ala delmar Smith's origional method. I understand he now endorses his son's method. That's fine and please use the one your comfortable with. But someone tell me why after all these years of having great luck with the origional method I should change? I can't see anything better or faster than the whoa post, origional version. You don't need a post, a auto bumper, porch post or a big rock will all work.

[brad27]

I use a pinch collar & CC,the dog also wears an e-collar while learning whoa with the CC & PC then I overlay the e-collar.Never had a problem using this method infact if you look at my avatar pic,it was taken after only 3 days of a couple 15 to 20 min sessions a day.I whoaed her took of all the training equipment,walked around her taking pics.Does it look like it was too much pressure?? Of course it helps to have a dog that wants to please!! I like to keep things as simple & uncomplicated as possible.

+1

[ACooper]

I like to keep things as simple & uncomplicated as possible.

Same reason I FF on the ground. IMO the fewer steps the better.

[S&J gsp]

Don that was the point I was trying to make why add steps to get to the same point. A check cord is all that is needed to teach whoa. When you add steps you add a lot more pressure than needed.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

Agreed Andy if you start on the ground then there's no need to transfer to the ground.There are many ways to train dogs & everyone has to find out what works for them & stick with it .IMO the less steps there are then the less chance of confusion.But what do I know I'm old & senile.Don't even know what my best breeding was but the more I act as stupid as they think I am the more I'm ahead!!

[4dabirds]

I love the fact that whoa elicits such emotion when brought up on this forum. I think that the use or non use of the command and the plethora of ways to teach it is the basis of most training philosophies of which I can see are endless. Good or bad I think the board is the best way to transition from the bench /barrel. Some people think whoa is useless the important thing is to be consistent within your philosophy and have fun with your dog. One way or the other, if it is not fun for you or your dog reassess your plan.

[Trekmoor]

Don that was the point I was trying to make why add steps to get to the same point. A check cord is all that is needed to teach whoa. When you add steps you add a lot more pressure than needed.

This thread really does show the different mind-set between U.S. pointing dog trainers and those in Britain. The check cord is used by some British trainers but I have never seen any of the other training equipment mentioned in the thread used by anyone.

My pointers point and hold the point and I rarely use even a check-cord . All I take out with me is a dog and a whistle. The whistle gets little use. I admit to being baffled by the seeming need for all those bits of equipment just to get a dog to point and to hold the point. I thought the birds themselves plus the dogs breeding did the teaching ?

From what I have read I think it takes me a few months to arrive at what you train in a couple of weeks so is it purely for speed of training that all that equipment is used ?
I am genuinely puzzled , I am not trying to criticize. Am I missing some crucial bit of info that would help me understand this ?

Bill T.

[ezzy333]

I think you understand it completely. We have a tendency to over do everything on this side of the pond. And there seems to be no end to "new and better" ways to get the job done. And all of these "new and better" ways include some "new and better" pieces of equipment. And of course we have to justify all of these "new and better" ways so we come up with "new and better" knowledge of how a dog thinks or does what it does.

But sadly we have no real way of knowing how a dog thinks or if it thinks. But it is absolutely necessary to think we do to justify writing a "new and better" book about the "new and better" equipment that produces a "new and better" dog.

Actually about all we are doing is finding "new and better" ways to spend our money and what we get is the same"old and tested" results but it takes a little less time and effort for some things and other times we take longer because we go through so many steps to get to the same spot we always got to.

So it still comes back to using the "old and tested' or the "new and better" tools and methods to end up with our "new and better" dog at the same "old and tested" place we have been at for years. However, we have helped the economy by having many more "new and better" books published, and much "new and better"equipment manufactured to do the same "old and tested" job with the same "old and tested" results but sometimes do it faster.

Ezzy

[Wildweeds]

I've yet to see one person mention............................ skip the barrell,skip the FF table with the noose and teeter toder and just use a launcher and teach stop to flush............... then overlay the "WWWWWWWUUUUUUUP" (which means birds are about to be in the air).You'll get a WANT to stop and be STILL versus a COERCED stop and BE still or ELSE ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZap or PPPPPPPPPPPPINCH.Mans hands kill more STYLE than anything else.Teaching whoa/whuuup would be the last thing of the breaking process.................. its the safety belt.

[S&J gsp]

Well put Ezzy I am still using a 18 year old check cord and a 3 year old whistle and I still get the same results I got 15 years ago

[birddogger]

Don that was the point I was trying to make why add steps to get to the same point. A check cord is all that is needed to teach whoa. When you add steps you add a lot more pressure than needed.

This thread really does show the different mind-set between U.S. pointing dog trainers and those in Britain. The check cord is used by some British trainers but I have never seen any of the other training equipment mentioned in the thread used by anyone.

My pointers point and hold the point and I rarely use even a check-cord . All I take out with me is a dog and a whistle. The whistle gets little use. I admit to being baffled by the seeming need for all those bits of equipment just to get a dog to point and to hold the point. I thought the birds themselves plus the dogs breeding did the teaching ?

From what I have read I think it takes me a few months to arrive at what you train in a couple of weeks so is it purely for speed of training that all that equipment is used ?
I am genuinely puzzled , I am not trying to criticize. Am I missing some crucial bit of info that would help me understand this ?

Bill T.

We like our toys.

Charlie

[4dabirds]

What was the original question? Guy asks about a training table and it becomes an international exposé on training philosophy blah blah blah bla blah!

[DonF]

Good post eezy!

Origional post was how to get from the barrel to the ground. Pertty simple really, take the dog off the barrel!

[birddogger]

What was the original question? Guy asks about a training table and it becomes an international exposé on training philosophy blah blah blah bla blah!

You are a good one to talk about bla bla bla!

Charlie

[AzDoggin]

I think you understand it completely. We have a tendency to over do everything on this side of the pond. And there seems to be no end to "new and better" ways to get the job done. And all of these "new and better" ways include some "new and better" pieces of equipment. And of course we have to justify all of these "new and better" ways so we come up with "new and better" knowledge of how a dog thinks or does what it does.

But sadly we have no real way of knowing how a dog thinks or if it thinks. But it is absolutely necessary to think we do to justify writing a "new and better" book about the "new and better" equipment that produces a "new and better" dog.

Actually about all we are doing is finding "new and better" ways to spend our money and what we get is the same"old and tested" results but it takes a little less time and effort for some things and other times we take longer because we go through so many steps to get to the same spot we always got to.

So it still comes back to using the "old and tested' or the "new and better" tools and methods to end up with our "new and better" dog at the same "old and tested" place we have been at for years. However, we have helped the economy by having many more "new and better" books published, and much "new and better"equipment manufactured to do the same "old and tested" job with the same "old and tested" results but sometimes do it faster.

Ezzy

Ezzy you do crack me up sometimes. I mean no offense, but this post can be summarized in three words:

No progress. Ever.

Without all of the discussion produced by folks with needs to discuss the different methods wouldn't this board be a dead zone?

[ACooper]

No progress. Ever.

Without all of the discussion produced by folks with needs to discuss the different methods wouldn't this board be a dead zone?

I agree discussion is good, but I guess it also depends on if you think boards, barrels, tables, buddy sticks, etc are progress?

We all have our opinions, and I do use some "gadgets" like e collar, astro, and remote launchers... but those are okay cause I like them.

[AzDoggin]

That's just it, Coop. Last I knew there were many ways to skin a dog.....errrrr train a cat. Every now and then someone actually comes up with a new...and better method. Without nylon, you'd still be weaving your checkcords out of horse's tails.

[ezzy333]

That's just it, Coop. Last I knew there were many ways to skin a dog.....errrrr train a cat. Every now and then someone actually comes up with a new...and better method. Without nylon, you'd still be weaving your checkcords out of horse's tails.

What is Nylon, my horses want to know before the fly season gets here.

Ezzy

[Gordon Guy]

This thread really does show the different mind-set between U.S. pointing dog trainers and those in Britain. The check cord is used by some British trainers but I have never seen any of the other training equipment mentioned in the thread used by anyone.

My pointers point and hold the point and I rarely use even a check-cord . All I take out with me is a dog and a whistle. The whistle gets little use. I admit to being baffled by the seeming need for all those bits of equipment just to get a dog to point and to hold the point. I thought the birds themselves plus the dogs breeding did the teaching ?

From what I have read I think it takes me a few months to arrive at what you train in a couple of weeks so is it purely for speed of training that all that equipment is used ?
I am genuinely puzzled , I am not trying to criticize. Am I missing some crucial bit of info that would help me understand this ?

Bill T.

I think the difference in training methods is because of the difference in dog events. In your neck of the woods trials are run on wild birds...correct? Here most of our events are run on planted birds and planted birds are known for unnatural behavior, i.e. like allowing the dog to approach much more closely than the wild versions, running instead of flying... I have seen released birds run underneath a dog while on point. A released bird may not fly at all and choose to run away in plain sight. These situations cause much more temptations for the dogs. Here in the US, those that play the games "Bomb" proof their dogs for every possible scenario (Extended flushing attempts) if they want to succeed. Wild birds are a lot more consistent in their behavior. Those training methods have spilled over into the hunting dog world because they work. If I wanted a hunting (wild bird) dog only many of these methods are overkill.

My $0.02

[AzDoggin]

That's just it, Coop. Last I knew there were many ways to skin a dog.....errrrr train a cat. Every now and then someone actually comes up with a new...and better method. Without nylon, you'd still be weaving your checkcords out of horse's tails.

What is Nylon, my horses want to know before the fly season gets here.

Ezzy

This:

[birddogger]

I think the difference in training methods is because of the difference in dog events. In your neck of the woods trials are run on wild birds...correct? Here most of our events are run on planted birds and planted birds are known for unnatural behavior, i.e. like allowing the dog to approach much more closely than the wild versions, running instead of flying... I have seen released birds run underneath a dog while on point. A released bird may not fly at all and choose to run away in plain sight. These situations cause much more temptations for the dogs. Here in the US, those that play the games "Bomb" proof their dogs for every possible scenario (Extended flushing attempts) if they want to succeed. Wild birds are a lot more consistent in their behavior. Those training methods have spilled over into the hunting dog world because they work. If I wanted a hunting (wild bird) dog only many of these methods are overkill.

My $0.02

Good post!

Charlie

[Onk]

Origional post was how to get from the barrel to the ground. Pertty simple really, take the dog off the barrel! [/quote]



Never thought of that! heck my dogs been on that darn barrel going on two weeks now! Thanks!