Table Vs. Barrel Vs. Blocks

cohanzick creek · Post by **cohanzick creek** » Thu May 24, 2012 12:26 pm

what would you rather use i have used the table and the barrel i would really like to have your opinion form other trainers i would greatly appreciate it cc

Post by **topher40** » Thu May 24, 2012 12:30 pm

I use some old concrete porch steps that I removed from the front porch, a bench, straw bales, a 35 gallon barrel, truck tailgate, and a small wooden bench that is screwed to the lightpole in my yard. Seems to have and continues to work fine. The whole point is to get the dog up, doesnt matter what you have him up on.

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Thu May 24, 2012 12:30 pm

I take the dog out on a lead to start with. Walk them around the yard, pull up on the lead and tell them to Whoa. From there I just progress to where I can step to the side, then step in front, then walk a circle, then drop the check cord, then I can throw stuff at him on point and step over him. Before long he'll be Whoaing fine.

I start a dog with a prong collar. If he's an exceptionally biddable dog I'll take the prong collar away. If he's ral stubborn and absolutely does not want to comply I'll go to an eCollar, but I try not to if I don't have to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4E-TbPH ... ature=plcp

cohanzick creek · Post by **cohanzick creek** » Thu May 24, 2012 2:05 pm

thanks guys, but my question was what method do you prefer. Table, barrel, blocks, etc... I havent trained in quite a while, I've used the barrel and i've used the table. Old age did my table in. So since i'm going to have a couple puppies to train again, i'm just trying to a opinion from you guys. So what do you prefer to use?
I'm no professional, but i have a pretty good understanding about training my dogs. lol, juist would like to know what method you guys use. All new methods are weclome cause this old dog can learn new tricks. CC

rinker · Post by **rinker** » Thu May 24, 2012 2:23 pm

To teach whoa I would rather use a barrel. I set the barrel upright and I can control how steady it is with my legs. I would rather use a table for force fetch.

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Thu May 24, 2012 2:29 pm

Sorry, CC. Didn't mean to get off track. I prefer to use just a check cord.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu May 24, 2012 5:50 pm

Table, aka dog crate, 1x12 and sawhorse, or any comfortable height flat surface.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Thu May 24, 2012 5:59 pm

This topic has been discussed many times and I think a lot of people make it too complicated than it needs to be. IMO, the whoa command is one of the easiest commands to teach and a CC or even lead is usually all that is needed for most dogs. The only other tools I sometimes use is a prong collar and/or heeling stick. I do transition to the e-collar after the command is learned. All the methods discussed on here work and I am not criticizing any other method. I just like to keep it simple if I can.

Charlie

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Thu May 24, 2012 8:14 pm

birddogger wrote:This topic has been discussed many times and I think a lot of people make it too complicated than it needs to be. IMO, the whoa command is one of the easiest commands to teach and a CC or even lead is usually all that is needed for most dogs. The only other tools I sometimes use is a prong collar and/or heeling stick. I do transition to the e-collar after the command is learned. All the methods discussed on here work and I am not criticizing any other method. I just like to keep it simple if I can.

Charlie

+1

cohanzick creek · Post by **cohanzick creek** » Fri May 25, 2012 8:42 am

Okay guys, I'm not trying to make this complicated I just wanted to know your method. I have used the barrel and the table. I would never call myself an expert but I do have about 25 years worth of training. Not to keep repeating myself, I just wanted to see if there were any new tricks for an old dog to learn.

cc

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Fri May 25, 2012 8:56 am

You mention the barrel I suspect that means for whoa training. I use the whoa post ala the origional Delmar Smith way. Mentioned the table and I think force fetch. I use the table for that. Get's the dog off the ground to my hight and it makes the whole thing easier for both of us. I have never heard of using blocks? What do you do with them?

Tas · Post by **Tas** » Fri May 25, 2012 11:57 am

I agree the command is not complicated, but few people take the time to fully train the command. The command isn't trained until the dog can be stopped at a distance on command w/o influence of e-collar or checkcord and will not move under any circumstance i.e. game walking under their nose until they are released. I agree with keeping it simple but you must also advance along in the training to make the command useful in hunting situations.

I like to use the table to start, advance to using birds on the table, progress to the ground in the yard, and finally to the field. There isn't room on a barrel to work birds and I need the table anyway for force breaking. The table makes it easier on my back then working the pup on the ground.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri May 25, 2012 12:07 pm

cohanzick creek wrote:Okay guys, I'm not trying to make this complicated I just wanted to know your method. I have used the barrel and the table. I would never call myself an expert but I do have about 25 years worth of training. Not to keep repeating myself, I just wanted to see if there were any new tricks for an old dog to learn.

cc

Fitti Ball. All the Agility kids have 'em.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri May 25, 2012 12:53 pm

I am lost! What difference does it make what you use. You either put them up on something or you do it on the ground. What am I missing?

Ezzy

Mike50 · Post by **Mike50** » Fri May 25, 2012 4:19 pm

ezzy333 wrote:I am lost! What difference does it make what you use. You either put them up on something or you do it on the ground. What am I missing?

Ezzy

There is no difference. He's just looking for the most preferred method from the professional trainers they all get the job done. Lots of ways to skin a cat. Ops!

cohanzick creek · Post by **cohanzick creek** » Fri May 25, 2012 7:11 pm

you got it mike cc

4dabirds · Post by **4dabirds** » Fri May 25, 2012 10:39 pm

I like the barrel with an overhead bar to attach to the pups collar. allowing the pup to move around on the barrel till it falls off and hangs for a second until you put him back up creates a situation where the dog is standing still to benefit the dog. The dog is not being compelled to do it by the trainer he is doing it because it is safe . This means that the dog perceives standing still on the barrel as a safe zone. Couple this with a click to mark the behavior and a food reward and the dog will be gladly jumping on the barrel to exhibit this behavior. This is why I think the barrel is best.

Post by **slistoe** » Fri May 25, 2012 11:34 pm

The table is more versatile, the barrel is better for Whoa. No idea what Blocks are.

tailcrackin · Post by **tailcrackin** » Sat May 26, 2012 10:45 am

I wonder, what do you really accomplish, with all this work? When you go to the ground, you have to reteach. What is getting accomplished? Thanks Jonesy

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat May 26, 2012 1:17 pm

tailcrackin wrote:I wonder, what do you really accomplish, with all this work? When you go to the ground, you have to reteach. What is getting accomplished? Thanks Jonesy

Agreed. Some say their backs but they still have to bend over when they go to the ground. I do not see the reasoning behind using exotic tools when just plain simple training will work. Keep it as simple as possible with as few aids as possible.

Ezzy

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Sat May 26, 2012 5:06 pm

tailcrackin wrote:I wonder, what do you really accomplish, with all this work? When you go to the ground, you have to reteach. What is getting accomplished? Thanks Jonesy

I find force fetch on a table much easier on me and the dog. Transistion to the ground is fast. Whoa? Forget that, on the ground and stay on the ground. I don't know who came up with the idea of the place board and the clicker, I can't git my head around either of those. Training a dog is not about voodo magic!

AzDoggin · Post by **AzDoggin** » Sat May 26, 2012 5:53 pm

Sounds like you guys have methods that work for you and that's great!

Doesn't mean others don't have different methods that are effective for them.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat May 26, 2012 6:11 pm

AzDoggin wrote:Sounds like you guys have methods that work for you and that's great!

Doesn't mean others don't have different methods that are effective for them.

Nobody said people have to change but the question was asked what do you accomplish since you have to start over when you go to the ground? Seems like a good question to me.

Ezzy

AzDoggin · Post by **AzDoggin** » Sat May 26, 2012 6:20 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
AzDoggin wrote:Sounds like you guys have methods that work for you and that's great!

Doesn't mean others don't have different methods that are effective for them.
Nobody said people have to change but the question was asked what do you accomplish since you have to start over when you go to the ground? Seems like a good question to me.

Ezzy

It is definitely a good question. I would hope that the answer would be that since the dog already knows the concept and has practiced standing still in one setting, it takes less reps to get him where you want him to be in the next setting. The question is whether the extra equipment and time spent pays off in training results...for that answer I will defer to those with direct experience with the technique - unless of course they've been sceert off by all of the posts doubting their methods

It's all good, Ezzy. What can be wrong with having a discussion about working with bird dogs?

cohanzick creek · Post by **cohanzick creek** » Sat May 26, 2012 6:47 pm

Thanks guys!! Just trying to pick your brain to see what methods you use. I see some guys are using the combination of the barrel and table. I heard that some people also use the blocks for posture. Once again I thank you for all the great ideas! Have a wonderful holiday!!!!

Waterdogs1 · Post by **Waterdogs1** » Sat May 26, 2012 7:40 pm

I am a retriever guy so forgive me if I sound stupid would not be the first time. I keep looking at teaching whoa as no different than teaching a lab pup to sit and stay first I would teach with my leach and pinch collar until they have it then I would over lay the command and collar condition them. Then I have a dog that when I tell them whoa They stop in their tracks and if they don't I have them collar conditioned so they can get a correction and they know why. Sound very similar to training a retriever. I may be missing something though. I use to put my puppies on the table for force fetch teach them hold and then fetch with ear pressure then once they were picking it off the table i would have the walk up and down the table with the dumb bell in their mouth then collar condition them then go to the ground. Know I just teach it on the ground. I have done enough dogs now I have a pretty good read on them and it saves me a bunch of time trying to transition to the ground. This is the force fetch I am talking about. I know their are different methods to do everything but I think the level of training and your expectation also dictate your training methods. I am still trying to sort out what is the best for a pointing dog. I am excited to learn and i am sure i will make mistakes but I am going to keep an open mind and have fun with it.

Post by **slistoe** » Sat May 26, 2012 10:05 pm

I have taught Whoa by a great variety of methods. They all worked. The barrel is the easiest on me and the easiest on the dog.
And Ezzy, it would be a good question if it wasn't built on a false supposition. You do not need to start all over again on the ground, you simply have to show the dog that the known behavior applies in the new situation - no different than you need to do with any method of teaching whoa. You teach it in one situation/context and expand on that till the dog generalizes the behavior to all situations.

AzDoggin · Post by **AzDoggin** » Sun May 27, 2012 6:11 am

This is from a "training tips http://www.esetter.com/trainingtips.htm" section on a breeder of setters website:

Delmar Smith's book is real good on all of this stuff. His Whoa post may be a little too harsh for a beginner to understand how to use it. A beginner can be too harsh from inexperience and cause his dog to drop to his belly on the Whoa command, where on the barrel it seems to make the dog stand tall. The whoa post is very effective and can be used should the barrel not be effective or should you have a really hardheaded dog. Setters are usually a long way from hardheaded. They are usually very easily trained just by repetition.

You will have to decide what method you want to use and then go about understanding what it is you really want your dog to learn. Some methods are easier to teach than others.

The more you read, the more you will be able to decide how you want your dog to work for you.

Here's a George Hickox article on the subject describing how he uses the table, barrel and board: http://www.georgehickox.com/articles/wh ... d-dogs.pdf

uplandguide · Post by **uplandguide** » Sun May 27, 2012 9:13 pm

I have always taught Whoa just this way! The method seems to always work for me assuming you can understand thier body language. I through the post down if i catch them stepping,

Stoneface wrote:I take the dog out on a lead to start with. Walk them around the yard, pull up on the lead and tell them to Whoa. From there I just progress to where I can step to the side, then step in front, then walk a circle, then drop the check cord, then I can throw stuff at him on point and step over him. Before long he'll be Whoaing fine.

I start a dog with a prong collar. If he's an exceptionally biddable dog I'll take the prong collar away. If he's ral stubborn and absolutely does not want to comply I'll go to an eCollar, but I try not to if I don't have to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4E-TbPH ... ature=plcp

S&J gsp · Post by **S&J gsp** » Mon May 28, 2012 6:09 am

I prefer the ground. Let's face it pressure is pressure if it comes from you a barrel a table a clickers a check cord all whoa training is going to require pressure. Let's face fact if you condition a dog to stop on any word be it whoa or whupp or jellybean until you add pressure that dog don't know what you want they don't understand English. But you apply pressure and make the same sound and the pressure goes away when they stop pretty soon all you have to do is make the sound and they stop. If you take a dog off the ground you are adding pressure when you hook them to a barrel when they come off the barrel your adding pressure from the collar. Make it easy on the dog leave them on the ground and use the least amount of pressure you can to get your results. The less complexed you can make it the better the results

4dabirds · Post by **4dabirds** » Tue May 29, 2012 6:23 am

S&j There is a huge difference between using pressure to teach a command and using pressure to guarantee compliance of a learned behavior. The barrel method is designed to help the dog understand , while it may be not so difficult for some trainers to understand ,it is obvious you miss the point entirely.

Post by **slistoe** » Tue May 29, 2012 6:36 am

S&J gsp wrote: Make it easy on the dog leave them on the ground and use the least amount of pressure you can to get your results.

That has not been my experience. The dog learns faster and feels less "pressure" with the barrel.

Vman · Post by **Vman** » Tue May 29, 2012 7:40 am

The dog learns faster and feels less "pressure" with the barrel.

That is my experience also. For those that may not completely understand the barrel method, all I use the barrel method for is teaching the dog what the word Whoa means. It means stand and don`t move and look as pretty as you can while doing it. You can`t have looking pretty if the dog is under pressure or confused. The barrel itself makes the dog stand still, so it is easy for the dog to understand. Unlike the table where the dog can move around, walk up, walk down. The barrel creates a setup too succeed where as the table is more a setup to fail. Once the dog fails here comes the pressure and confusion.
The barrel is by far a faster way to teach the word Whoa. It is faster because it is easier for the dog too understand. Once the dog understands what the word means then I move to the ground and overlay what was learned on the barrel. It is very simple and easy to do and that may be why people can`t grasp it.

4dabirds · Post by **4dabirds** » Tue May 29, 2012 8:17 am

I don't think the dog really understands the word whoa until it has gone through the process of generalization.the barrel starts that process. When a dog is trying to avoid any negative stimulation it will exhibit typical canine behaviors of fight flight fakery or freeze. I think a lot of people confuse the freeze response with compliance of the whoa command. While eventually the dog will respond it will take much more pressure to get to the same point

AzDoggin · Post by **AzDoggin** » Tue May 29, 2012 8:29 am

...and the generalization process can be started much, much earlier - in early puppyhood even - teaching "whoa" at the food dish, water dish, kennel door, in and out of a vehicle, marker training and so on, beginning as early as 9-10 weeks of age. By the time these pups become mature enough for the "breaking" process, they have had hundreds, if not thousands of reps on whoa in all the different venues and with the various methods including the barrel. When a dog like this finishes on a barrel, he's Joe Pro at Whoa, you might say...then to the ground with the CC or EC to finish the compliance aspect, and it won't take much because he fully understands and has mastered the concept of standing still. Brick by brick...

Vman · Post by **Vman** » Tue May 29, 2012 11:00 am

and the generalization process can be started much, much earlier - in early puppyhood even - teaching "whoa" at the food dish, water dish, kennel door, in and out of a vehicle, marker training and so on, beginning as early as 9-10 weeks of age. By the time these pups become mature enough for the "breaking" process, they have had hundreds, if not thousands of reps on whoa in all the different venues and with the various methods including the barrel.

I know this is a common way some people do things. I am not going to argue that it doesn`t work. We all know dog training is about repetition. But my experience with the dogs that are taught this way is this. The dog may very well do Whoa at the door or dish or vehicle or marker training,, but what is common with all these scenarios? The handler is standing next or near the dog. So when I teach the dog to Whoa at a distance, lets say ten yards when starting out, the dog will race to my side like I said Heel! Because after hundreds or thousands of Whoa`s at the side of the handler the dog thinks that is what I want.{ I have seen this more times than I can count} It is what he has been doing since 8-10 weeks and now I am changing the game on him and he can`t grasp it. When the dog comes to my side what do I do? I pick the dog up and put him back where i wanted him to stop. This is now un-needed pressure and confusion that could have been avoided. When I put the dog back and style him up and try and walk away his tail will be tucked more than likely. That alone tells me he is confused. It will take many many positive repetitions and alot of time before that dog will stand proud and some never will. The reason so many FTers do not like to give the Whoa command while the dog is on point,, they are afraid his tail will drop and look like crap. So they just don`t say the word at all around birds. {which I have no problem with at all}
But a dog that looks good and stands proud when given the Whoa command is a sure sign the dog was Whoa trained with minimal pressure and that is a direct reflection on me as a trainer. As a professional if I Whoa a dog and the dog cowers and the tail drops or tucks it is a sure sign that the dog was pressured more than the dog that stands tall and proud and holding his tail as high as he can, and that is a direct reflection on me as a trainer.
Note: not all the dogs I train will have a twelve Oclock tail. But I do want the dog to have the same style when Whoa`d or as close as possible as his point. I want the dog too look as good as he possibly can.

Deuce · Post by **Deuce** » Tue May 29, 2012 12:34 pm

Vman - You've peaked my interest. I currently am woahing my pup at the food bowl, and a variety of places around the house when I want her to stand still. I have her woah outside some, I do my best to time it to when she's paying attention and slowing down, not lost in smells or chasing squirrels. I understand what you're saying and how it could lead to that problem. I'm curious how I can avoid the problem that you described? To give some context I will usually woah her in the kitchen and she must stay put until I get the food out of the bucket, put it in the bowl, set the bowl down, twiddle my thumbs, etc. until I tell her to go. She's getting pretty good and I rarely have to reset her. I range about 10-15' from her in this process. Obviously I'm not looking to put a lot of pressure on her, but I'm trying to think of how to keep up this conditioning until more formal training later...

On a side note - y'all have convinced me on the barrel training, now to find one.

AzDoggin · Post by **AzDoggin** » Tue May 29, 2012 1:39 pm

Vman wrote:
and the generalization process can be started much, much earlier - in early puppyhood even - teaching "whoa" at the food dish, water dish, kennel door, in and out of a vehicle, marker training and so on, beginning as early as 9-10 weeks of age. By the time these pups become mature enough for the "breaking" process, they have had hundreds, if not thousands of reps on whoa in all the different venues and with the various methods including the barrel.
I know this is a common way some people do things. I am not going to argue that it doesn`t work. We all know dog training is about repetition. But my experience with the dogs that are taught this way is this. The dog may very well do Whoa at the door or dish or vehicle or marker training,, but what is common with all these scenarios? The handler is standing next or near the dog. So when I teach the dog to Whoa at a distance, lets say ten yards when starting out, the dog will race to my side like I said Heel! Because after hundreds or thousands of Whoa`s at the side of the handler the dog thinks that is what I want.{ I have seen this more times than I can count} It is what he has been doing since 8-10 weeks and now I am changing the game on him and he can`t grasp it. When the dog comes to my side what do I do? I pick the dog up and put him back where i wanted him to stop. This is now un-needed pressure and confusion that could have been avoided. When I put the dog back and style him up and try and walk away his tail will be tucked more than likely. That alone tells me he is confused. It will take many many positive repetitions and alot of time before that dog will stand proud and some never will. The reason so many FTers do not like to give the Whoa command while the dog is on point,, they are afraid his tail will drop and look like crap. So they just don`t say the word at all around birds. {which I have no problem with at all}
But a dog that looks good and stands proud when given the Whoa command is a sure sign the dog was Whoa trained with minimal pressure and that is a direct reflection on me as a trainer. As a professional if I Whoa a dog and the dog cowers and the tail drops or tucks it is a sure sign that the dog was pressured more than the dog that stands tall and proud and holding his tail as high as he can, and that is a direct reflection on me as a trainer.
Note: not all the dogs I train will have a twelve Oclock tail. But I do want the dog to have the same style when Whoa`d or as close as possible as his point. I want the dog too look as good as he possibly can.

Vman you make several valid points - there are potential hazards to "conditioning" whoa in the daily life of a young pup. I've seen the problems you are describing in a buddy's dog...the buddy almost always followed "whoa" with the command "here" in his pup. Whaddya know, pup learned the chain "whoa-here" so he regularly turned back toward my friend after a whoa. You rightly point out the care that has to be taken that "whoa" as a command stands alone, and does not get associated with other commands. Also, you pointed out the need to vary the proximity of the trainer, so indeed you are not always right there with pup. It's probably because of these potential problems that most Bill West trainers never train a verbal "whoa" command at all. They want the bird to be the "whoa" cue - not the blithering human!

Dave Walker is a West trainer - and he does not train a verbal "whoa" cue unless specifically asked by a customer to do so - and then he only trains it as one of the last commands before he sends the dog home. He never uses a verbal "whoa" in his fieldwork. His statement in his book is that "whoa" is by far the most over-used command by pointer owners - that the humans do more harm issuing "whoa" commands than they ever do good.

So anyway, thank out for pointing out the hazards of doing early "whoa" conditioning with a young pup. Upon reflection, it's probably not the best thing for me to suggest in a public forum where you have no control over how information gets used - and there are too many caveats to be able to explain every one. I've had success with the technique with a a several dogs in my lifetime - but I've always been very cautious to make sure that there were no other commands that consistently followed "whoa" other than the release command - either the tap on the head or an "alright." And I never ask a pup to "here" after a whoa. The few pups I've trained this way had no problems moving up and understanding once the formal field training began. They did not show the confusion you described, but I can see how it could happen.

Vman · Post by **Vman** » Tue May 29, 2012 5:10 pm

I currently am woahing my pup at the food bowl, and a variety of places around the house when I want her to stand still. I have her woah outside some, I do my best to time it to when she's paying attention and slowing down, not lost in smells or chasing squirrels. I understand what you're saying and how it could lead to that problem. I'm curious how I can avoid the problem that you described? To give some context I will usually woah her in the kitchen and she must stay put until I get the food out of the bucket, put it in the bowl, set the bowl down, twiddle my thumbs, etc. until I tell her to go. She's getting pretty good and I rarely have to reset her. I range about 10-15' from her in this process. Obviously I'm not looking to put a lot of pressure on her, but I'm trying to think of how to keep up this conditioning until more formal training later...

Well first off please understand that I am not a control freak. So what I say here take lightly. Also read all that is written here.
I guess if you want the dog to not be in your hair while you water and feed that is your choice and not mine. But if it was me I would probably just say SIT. and do my chores and release when I want.

This is a BIG ONE!

His statement in his book is that "whoa" is by far the most over-used command by pointer owners - that the humans do more harm issuing "whoa" commands than they ever do good.

This is a mouthful and I could not agree more. Simply because the owners are Whoaing pups at the door, outside they are saying whoa when the dog is right beside them, they will say whoa when the dog is chasing another dog, they will say whoa when gramma comes over too visit the kids, all without a release. It is a very abused word.
Whoa is a FIELD COMMAND. It is not a house command. Dave trains mostly FT dogs. He can get away with not saying whoa. As mentioned he lets the birds stop the dog. But for Foot hunting dogs it does become more important.{too most}and the dogs that he does teach whoa, they are probably foot hunting dogs where the owners need more or want more control of the dog. They want to be able to stop the dog on command with no bird around, and this is not at 10 ft. but at 100 yards, and every time the whistle is blown or verbally commanded.

At the end of the day guys, use what works for you. That is usually the method you understand the best. I choose the barrel because that is what the dogs understand the best.

AZ Brittany Guy · Post by **AZ Brittany Guy** » Tue May 29, 2012 9:09 pm

A barrel can be used for more than whoa. It is a good tool for sacking out and working on style. I use the SCS method for whoa but a few minutes on the barrel is always at the begining and end of the training session. My dogs love the barrel and jump up on it even when we are not training. They love to be sacked out and given one on one attention. Some dogs I will make them stand on it while I toss pigeons at them. (later in their development).

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Tue May 29, 2012 9:18 pm

Why does the dog stand still on the barrel the first time you put it on it? Or maybe the second time?

S&J gsp · Post by **S&J gsp** » Wed May 30, 2012 4:12 am

brad27 wrote:Why does the dog stand still on the barrel the first time you put it on it? Or maybe the second time?

Because the dog is under pressure he is on unstable ground once he falls off he is getting pressure from the collar. When you put a dog on over load he freezes 80% of the time another reason he is standing still. Now put the same dog on the ground and show him what you want then add pressure from a check cord or lead and the results will be the same. From what I gather the barrel shows the dog to stand still and I can do that with out the dog falling off a barrel

Vman · Post by **Vman** » Wed May 30, 2012 7:36 am

brad27 wrote:Why does the dog stand still on the barrel the first time you put it on it? Or maybe the second time?

Not all will stand still the first time or the second, but 95% of them do. Most dogs do not like being up off the ground, the basis of the table and barrel. The difference between the barrel and the table is the barrel is not flat. The curvature of the barrel makes it easy for the dog too slip off. So the dog has to stand still to avoid falling off the barrel. If I have one of those that won`t stand still I will remove the tape from the pad on the barrel and now the pad can slide, or I may even remove the pad and the dog has to stand on the bare plastic barrel which is actually hard too do. This will get them standing still in no time.
The table is flat and the dog can walk around on it with little fear of falling off. When using the table, we actually encourage the dog to walk up and down the table to get comfortable with it. Then we tell the dog too stand still on it. Just the opposite of what we just taught him. Then when he fails to stand still here comes the corrections and pressure/confusion/tucked tail.
Think of the barrel like this. Go stand on a railroad rail and balance yourself. Then have someone give you a nudge. You will freeze trying to keep your balance. But once you stand there and nobody nudges you, it gets easy.{providing you are sober}

S&J gsp · Post by **S&J gsp** » Wed May 30, 2012 8:54 am

I am not going to knock any method I just found I got my best results on the ground. At least we are all working towards the same goal

Post by **slistoe** » Wed May 30, 2012 9:40 am

S&J gsp wrote:I am not going to knock any method I just found I got my best results on the ground. At least we are all working towards the same goal

You've used the barrel on multiple dogs?

S&J gsp · Post by **S&J gsp** » Wed May 30, 2012 10:30 am

No I have not but I have no need for a barrel or place boards or buddy sticks I use a check cord and flat collar or the wonder lead. The barrel is like an A frame in obediance work once use to it they will accept it. Take a pup to an A frame and all of them freeze at the bottom first time the next time they will go two or three steps with help. After a week or two they fly over like it was not there you conditioned the dog to do it.

Post by **slistoe** » Wed May 30, 2012 10:58 am

Therefor you would have no real way of knowing if you get your "best results" on the ground, only that you feel the results you get from on the ground are adequate for your needs.

rinker · Post by **rinker** » Wed May 30, 2012 12:43 pm

[quoteI was one that thought an ecollar was not a very important tool untill I learned how to use it][/quote]

A barrel is just a training tool like an ecollar. I use a barrel and it works for me, but every one should do what works for them and what they are comfortabel with.

tailcrackin · Post by **tailcrackin** » Wed May 30, 2012 1:46 pm

When have any of the dogs ever, ended up on a barrel, or bench, or 2x4 or 2x6....pointed, flat out sticking the bird.........while hunting birds in the wild, or even on a preserve? Why wouldnt it be easier for dogs to understand, and or learn the "natural"....and not the "un-natural"
Hopefully, we can have someone start a topic, on checkcord work, or loose handling, that gets the dog to stop on top of the barrel, or the other things, to stop and point the bird its smelling. This would be a very interesting topic, on the whats an hows. Thanks Jonesy

4dabirds · Post by **4dabirds** » Wed May 30, 2012 5:03 pm

All of the negative comments towards barrel work are based on a misunderstanding of why a barrel works and what the barrel does. When conditioning a dog to do any task you first need to have the dog exhibit the behavior you are trying to reinforce. There are several ways to do this. You can wait for the behavior to be shown naturally , you can compel the dog to exhibit the behavior, you can lure the dog into the behavior , or you can use some training aid that causes the dog to exhibit the behavior on its own in order to avoid something that it may find objectionable or be attracted to something it may deem as a resource. With out the behavior first being exhibited it is impossible to reinforce it negatively or positively. If you are of the camp that feel it is best to let the dog exhibit the behavior in a natural way , such as exposure to wild birds you have to realize that the success of this first relies on the dog making the association that the trainer expects. And the ability of the owner /trainer to have access to wild birds.The other camp believes that training the expected behavior first will allow the trainer to control the outcome and help the dog to make the association that the trainer expects.I think part of the misunderstanding of the trained behavior of whoa is that it in some way negates the natural propensity for the dog to point. This training in no way is intended to teach a dog to point, it is intended to help the trainer communicate to the dog that once it is on point it should stay on point without having to use pressure on the dog in the presence of a bird. This helps to diminish the chance of the dog being confused, apprehensive or lose style. A dog trained on the barrel would first be given a good amount of obstacles to climb on in its regular play time to build confidence before the dog is expected to be hoisted up on the barrel. Once on the barrel the dog is allowed to move freely and explore until it falls off and hangs by the overhead chain. Since the dog has the confidence to explore its environment this is not pressure. The dog determines what it must do next which invariably is stand still. So this brings us back to the dog doing what is natural standing still because it is safe to stand still. This should always be between the dog and the barrel with no interference from the trainer other than to lift the dog back on the barrel. Now you have the dog exhibiting the wanted behavior on its own. At this time the behavior is shaped and rewarded. Since the behavior helps the dog to gain resources the dog will exhibit this behavior gladly. When the dog is exhibiting the behavior on its own it is much easier to reward. As the behavior is shaped, the dog being place oriented, has a better understanding of what is expected. With this method the dog is not being compelled to do it. When using leash jerks to train whoa the dog is being compelled to do the task and in the absence of correction the dog has no reason to comply. This leads to more correction which may result in a diminished style or even blinking in some dogs. You also have to take into consideration the motivation of the dog. A dog with great prey drive is what we all aspire to yet this prey drive high or low can be an obsticle in training with correction. A dog that is determined to get that bird will have to take more correction to reign in and a dog with low prey drive will be hard to train because the correction may be perceived by the dog as a correction for finding birds ,diminishing style and maybe even causing blinking. A proper program starting with whoa on the barrel puts the dog in charge of his own destiny and will work with either type of dog. Since dogs are motivated to please themselves this turns out to be the most natural way to train.