Soft Dogs

S&J gsp · Post by **S&J gsp** » Mon May 28, 2012 9:09 am

When I post a response I really am not trying to be a horses behind but until 6 years ago I never seen a soft dog than I got one and added to much pressure to fast and turned that dog into a pet for her life. Soon after that I started looking and found that a soft dog is much harder to train than a hard dog. With that being said I like to error on the side of being a little easy to start than increase as needed. So when someone asks for advice I like to be safe and start on the soft side

stolhma · Post by **stolhma** » Mon May 28, 2012 10:07 am

S&J gsp wrote:When I post a response I really am not trying to be a horses behind but until 6 years ago I never seen a soft dog than I got one and added to much pressure to fast and turned that dog into a pet for her life. Soon after that I started looking and found that a soft dog is much harder to train than a hard dog. With that being said I like to error on the side of being a little easy to start than increase as needed. So when someone asks for advice I like to be safe and start on the soft side

Better on the soft side than sorry. Everyone should know their dog before seeking or taking advice, if you're not sure seek a pro.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon May 28, 2012 12:41 pm

I have found that hard or soft makes little difference in what you do but does make a difference in how you do it.

Ezzy

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Mon May 28, 2012 12:49 pm

I have little Setter, the one you saw when we were out at Justin's place, and she is as soft as silk in non-bird situations. I start all my dogs off yard training with a prong collar; if it doesn't make an impact, I got to eCollar, if it makes an impact I'll stay with it, but sometimes, for real biddable dogs, I may not even worry with putting it on at all and just train with the falt collar. I'm holding on to a dog for a friend in Oregon and doing some training with him and this dog is incredible. If he never had an eCollar on he could still be trained by a two year old. He's just like soft clay.

But, although Cinna (the Setter) is a soft dog, she is also head strong and doesn't like to comply. She wouldn't stay put when I told her to Whoa at all, even though it was blatantly obvious she knew what it meant. So, I bumped her up to an eCollar. When she moves I put the continuous stimulation on level one (out of ten) and keep it on her until I set her back to where she broke from. Worked like a charm. In a matter of two sessions she was Whoaing like a champ. Like Ezzy said, it's not what you do, it's how you do it. Bumping a soft dog with an eCollar is okay, it's just a matter of making sure it's not too much for them.

I hope this thread picks up, it's a good topic. Man, a soft dog will make or break a trainer.

S&J gsp · Post by **S&J gsp** » Mon May 28, 2012 12:56 pm

Ezzy that was the point I can give advise but if they read the dog wrong than it will set them back. The dog in my avatar is soft as a marshmallow but if you take things slow and don't add extra steps he picks it up quick. If you push it will set you back two weeks. The good thing about him is once he has it he will do it right every time. There is a lot of good information on here but a lot of adding steps that don't need added. A good trainer told my when I was starting that it will take birds a check cord and a whistle to make a bird dog and it still takes the same to make a bird dog. We just refine what we want in our dogs. Some want steady to wing shot and fall, some want steady to wing, some just want a solid point. We just need to be careful not to add any more pressure than we have to. The dog that I was referring to was doing 100 yard blinds at 5 months old and 175 yard marks at 6 months. Than I got that first refusal and got a force fetch book and a few videos and a table and than I got a house pet. Won't pick up anything!! The point was I was looking for a finished dog and had a puppy. Let it be fun for you and the dog and all will work out

SetterNut · Post by **SetterNut** » Mon May 28, 2012 1:29 pm

I think for any dog you get a level of insurance if you spend the time making sure that they have lots of bird drive. That way you can make some small mistakes without turning the dog to mush. That more important with a softer dog.

I thought my Avatar dog Ace was soft, but I am not sure that it was that he was soft. He will bark through a bark collar on high if he fells like it.
But what he is, is very observant. He watches everything and will sometimes react to them. Where a dog that people don't think is soft is not as observant of its surroundings, and therefore doesn't react to all the distractions. My theory anyway.

But I think with "soft dogs" you have to be consistent, and make sure that they understand the command before using forceful corrections, more so than with "normal" dogs. Spend more time on the foundation and on a CC and you will be better off in the long run. Poeple use E-collars as a crutch some times, and try to move to the next training item too fast. If you are training you own dog, there is not reason to rush things, it only causes more problems down the road. If you are having to give many corrections, the dog is not ready to be moved forward, spend some time on the foundation work.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Mon May 28, 2012 2:22 pm

Sometimes Soft dogs are really really smart hardheads ...

SetterNut · Post by **SetterNut** » Mon May 28, 2012 3:26 pm

birddog1968 wrote:Sometimes Soft dogs are really really smart hardheads ...

Yep, that know how to put one over on you.

AzDoggin · Post by **AzDoggin** » Mon May 28, 2012 8:08 pm

birddog1968 wrote:Sometimes Soft dogs are really really smart hardheads ...

You bet. And some legitimately "soft dogs" can be heck-on-wheels on birds, too if they can be brought along slowly!

SetterNut · Post by **SetterNut** » Mon May 28, 2012 8:12 pm

AzDoggin wrote:
birddog1968 wrote:Sometimes Soft dogs are really really smart hardheads ...
You bet. And some legitimately "soft dogs" can be heck-on-wheels on birds, too if they can be brought along slowly!

That is very true.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Mon May 28, 2012 8:38 pm

birddog1968 wrote:Sometimes Soft dogs are really really smart hardheads ...

Most times soft dogs are a PIA.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon May 28, 2012 8:56 pm

It has been my experience they can be difficult to work with but once trained they stay that way better than the hard headed ones. Kind of like them when I get all through.

Ezzy

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Mon May 28, 2012 9:43 pm

ACooper wrote:
birddog1968 wrote:Sometimes Soft dogs are really really smart hardheads ...
Most times soft dogs are a PIA.

Agreed ! and soft hard headed ones are really tough....but those are the dogs that teach you alot too.

S&J gsp · Post by **S&J gsp** » Tue May 29, 2012 5:05 am

I have actually come to like a softer dog until I got one I didn't have any idea what a soft dog was I always had the hard dogs no one wanted. It was a real learning experance for me up till than it was middle of the road or hard. In my experance middle of the road is good for an average trainer a hard or soft dog will make you second guess your self a lot. I have been working a pointer for the past three months that if you give a slight correction he hits the ground like you shot him but he is comming along with a lot of work and time he should make a real nice dog. He is almost whoa broke but if I would have put any extra pressure on him I wouldnt have a foundation to build from. Has an outstanding point and holds birds well just his yard work leaves me guessing.

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Tue May 29, 2012 6:59 am

I have trained a fair number of soft dogs and I like training them as long as they are also keen to work. I have had a few dogs that were as tough as old boots physically but who were mentally fairly soft..... I'm training a spaniel like that at present. She is a doddle to train as long as I do not lose my temper and let her see that I am angry. She needed just two 3-5 minute hunts inside a rabbit pen to be steady to rabbits and to sit as soon as she'd flushed one. All I had to use was my voice and a stop whistle, no check cords or anything else was needed ...... that made a nice change !

Bill T.

mudpuppy1299 · Post by **mudpuppy1299** » Tue May 29, 2012 8:48 am

My Vizsla is a soft dog. I can't lose my temper or raise my voice; all it accomplishes is her shutting down. I just have to be patient and read her body language. If her tail goes between her legs, we quit and do something fun, then go back to training later in a positive, upbeat manner. Once she learns something, she doesn't forget it, and it usually doesn't take her long to learn it. Soft dog, hard dog, or somewhere in between, I've learned that it is best to be calm and patient.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Tue May 29, 2012 11:35 am

I'm not looking for a hard head either, I am looking for stable, middle of the road. But if it came down to having a hard hear or a soft dog, I choose the hard head.

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Tue May 29, 2012 11:44 am

Trekmoor wrote:I She is a doddle to train as long as I do not lose my temper and let her see that I am angry.

Bill T.

Okay Bill you need to speak American.

What is a doddle. I am guessing it is good.

I too have a female french brit. She is soft regarding reacting to a person. She will jump if the wind blows a limb and it touches her. Yet she is the one that hunts the thick brush and briars, she will dig her way under a wood pile to get to a hidden pheasant. etc. She is tough as nails physically and uses her soft nature to get a way with stuff. You trip over something she heads for her crate. You raise your voice during a ball game she heads for her crate. :roll:

AzDoggin · Post by **AzDoggin** » Tue May 29, 2012 12:35 pm

ACooper wrote:I'm not looking for a hard head either, I am looking for stable, middle of the road. But if it came down to having a hard hear or a soft dog, I choose the hard head.

Coop that's a great point - it pays to know what type of personality of dog you are best matched with and to choose accordingly. That's why I respect the pro trainers so much - taking on all comers regardless of disposition - have to have many, many tools in their toolkit.

Ruffshooter wrote: I too have a female french brit. She is soft regarding reacting to a person. She will jump if the wind blows a limb and it touches her. Yet she is the one that hunts the thick brush and briars, she will dig her way under a wood pile to get to a hidden pheasant. etc. She is tough as nails physically and uses her soft nature to get a way with stuff. You trip over something she heads for her crate. You raise your voice during a ball game she heads for her crate. :roll:

Rick, my Am Brittany was the same way. Dadgum dog would run all day long in the cactus and cinders, and never complain a bit. One sideways glance from me around the house, and she would pre-emptively yelp and run off. I didn't know enough about working with her back then - she was a great hunter in spite of me, but her manners around the house left a little to be desired (used to call her "helicopter dog" for her behavior outside the patio door).

AZ Brittany Guy · Post by **AZ Brittany Guy** » Tue May 29, 2012 8:59 pm

AzDoggin wrote:
birddog1968 wrote:Sometimes Soft dogs are really really smart hardheads ...
You bet. And some legitimately "soft dogs" can be heck-on-wheels on birds, too if they can be brought along slowly!

Yep, I call them passive agressive. Some should get an Acadamy Award for their act.

Francois P vd Walt · Post by **Francois P vd Walt** » Thu May 31, 2012 9:16 am

Imo most trainers start out to soft a then go over the top, I include myself not as a trainer rather as a handler.

One looses your temper then go to hard this could damage your dog if he is soft, on birds and food there is no boundry in a natural environment this could mean death. Eg. In a pride if the same animal makes a mistake all the time he will be chased out or killed. When hunting and the dog keeps messing it up you have to be harder or get rid of the dog, only if the dog knows the commands I must add. And timing is the MOST importend here 1.3 seconds to act or rather leave it !

Good luck with so many clever dogs out there they actually are brighter than their owners. Ha !

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Thu May 31, 2012 12:53 pm

The majority of trainers I have spoken with want confident dogs, and a little toughness is desired. Soft dogs MUST be in the hands of someone who has seen it before and knows how to handle it. Too easy to crush. Its much harder to crush or "injure" a mentally stable dog.

With that being said I like to error on the side of being a little easy to start than increase as needed. So when someone asks for advice I like to be safe and start on the soft side

Never use more than you need. That's the advantage of a pro (or pro quality amateur)...they have seen it before and they can "read" the response as they go.

MSU Aggie · Post by **MSU Aggie** » Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:44 am

Can you repair damage done to a soft dog ( I think he's smart hardhead)? Had bad experience with trainer not knowing how to work with soft dog.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:28 am

MSU Aggie wrote:Can you repair damage done to a soft dog ( I think he's smart hardhead)? Had bad experience with trainer not knowing how to work with soft dog.

Thats tough to answer without seeing the individual. Time , and re-bonding can help diminish some memories of a bad experience. Key word "some".

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:24 am

The key with soft dogs is not to over react to their manner, Ignore most of the tactics they use and just be non emotional and don't allow them any leaway. IMHO An ecollar is a great tool for a soft dog. (USED CORRECTLY, Low stimulation timed properly and introduced properly) At least for mine.

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:08 am

My pointer is soft, you just have to take some time with him. That is where a good trainer uses different tools to get results, the TT on 6 all the time does not work for alot of dogs.

MSU Aggie · Post by **MSU Aggie** » Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:19 pm

I'm hoping he isn't too messed up. The good thing is though he is just a pup and if cant fix for this season, I can afford to go real slow.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:54 pm

birddog1968 wrote:
MSU Aggie wrote:Can you repair damage done to a soft dog ( I think he's smart hardhead)? Had bad experience with trainer not knowing how to work with soft dog.

Thats tough to answer without seeing the individual. Time , and re-bonding can help diminish some memories of a bad experience. Key word "some".

Good post, dogs have a very good memory.

Charlie

mudhunter · Post by **mudhunter** » Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:56 pm

MSU Aggie wrote:Can you repair damage done to a soft dog ( I think he's smart hardhead)? Had bad experience with trainer not knowing how to work with soft dog.

Depends on the dog, the skill of the trainer, and the time period you have to work. I takes a whole lot longer to fix a problem then create one. Depending on the damage it could take years in some cases, and a set back can take seconds, but I do know that it can often be fixed.

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:53 am

I think the last really soft dog I had here for training was a lab bitch. She was willing to work but needed every exercise broke up into tiny bits or she began to worry she might be doing something wrong . I failed to break directional training up into small enough bits and she "froze up" when I set out 3 dummies instead of just two. :roll: This remained a problem and I took desperate measures..... I took her to big driven shoots where many birds could be down all at the same time. It is amazing how much soft dogs can toughen up when there is game involved.

Doing this worked well for her and she made very fast progress during this on the job training.

You asked me what the word "doddle" meant a few posts back Ruffshooter ? You were correct in guessing it meant "easy."

The lab bitch became a doddle to keep and train as a working dog but she always lacked the "sting" she'd have needed for field trialing.

Bill T.

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:45 am

Thanks Bill: Thought maybe.

Rick

Post by **Sharon** » Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:19 pm

MSU Aggie wrote:Can you repair damage done to a soft dog ( I think he's smart hardhead)? Had bad experience with trainer not knowing how to work with soft dog.

IN my experience you sometimes can. I bought a 3 year old setter once, who had been abused with the e-collar. Took a lot of time but today she is a big running hnyer who's wearing an e collar.

SHORTFAT · Post by **SHORTFAT** » Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:34 am

I have very, VERY limited experience with training the pointing breeds, but from my own problems, it seems that birds, and more birds will help fix just about anything a dog struggles with... at least with mine... and she is very soft... kind of the old "class room boredom" thing, then when I got out onto the shop floor, it "clicked"... She seems to figure out what we've been working on better with live birds on the gorund.

SHORTFAT · Post by **SHORTFAT** » Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:40 am

MSU Aggie wrote:Can you repair damage done to a soft dog ( I think he's smart hardhead)? Had bad experience with trainer not knowing how to work with soft dog.

I think it's probably easier with a dog that you have time on the "couch" with... bonding and trust will go along way to "undoing" old mistakes... the dog has to trust & want to please... I would ask the more knowledgeable trainers if it is harder to fix with a dog that is only kept in the kennel?

SHORTFAT · Post by **SHORTFAT** » Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:22 pm

Ok, I'll rephrase the question... is a house dog / pet easier to "fix" if it's soft than a kennel kept dog? This is an honest question, as I've only ever had my dogs in the house... but does it make a difference if the dog is "all business" or not?

bumper52 · Post by **bumper52** » Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:28 pm

here is a thread by one of the most successful retriever trainer that discusses softness vs. sensitivity

Retrievers ONLINE – Training Tips

SORTING OUT SENSITIVITY, SOFTNESS, SENSIBILITY, SMARTNESS & SIMILAR TRAITS

by Dennis R. Voigt

Hang around retriever trial tailgates or galleries much and it won’t belong before you’ll hear somebody talking about dogs that are too soft, too sensitive, too smart or too crazy. It seems we’re all pretty quick to label a dog as being too extreme in some trait. Often, this condemnation of a dog or even a line of dogs fails to take into account weaknesses in training programs and how the training was conducted. Rarely do we hear, I don’t know how to train a dog that is this soft or this sensitive or this “smart”. Explore these discussions further and you’ll soon find that different folks have very different meanings for the same words. Part of this is the frailty of the English language but a big part is that we’ve seldom thought about these traits except in a casual and human perspective way.

All dogs have degrees of sensitivity, softness, sensibility and smartness. Thus, it’s not the trait itself that is good or bad but the degree the trait displays itself as the dog is trained. As suggested above, HOW the dog is trained plays a big role in whether the trait becomes a negative that limits a dog’s eventual performance. In addition, other traits can modify the importance of any particular trait. For example, high desire for birds and retrieving has a huge impact on the dog’s potential when coupled with softness or sensitivity. The combination of traits in a particular dog is critical. For example a dog with high sensitivity, high softness and little desire is a very different package than the dog that is insensitive, tough and high desire. Perhaps neither will make good candidates for a top-level performer in the field. Perhaps both can achieve much if their trainer recognizes their true nature and can tailor a program to their needs.

One thing that would help immeasurably with our discussion of these traits is some common understanding of these terms. Unfortunately, there is no official terminology here although a few trainers have attempted to explain some of these terms. For example Mike Lardy wrote an article in the Retriever Journal on “Sensitive” dogs wherein he defined “sensitive”. Various dog training forums have recently tackled the subject also and there was a trend towards some consensus although never 100% (like almost ALL Internet forum threads!) Let’s tackle a few of these terms and discuss combinations.

Sensitivity is a description of how responsive some animal is to a stimulus. While we can think about being cold sensitive (Fiona wants the heat up; I want the window open!), sensitive is most often applied to mental or psychological reactions. When we generally talk about sensitive people or dogs we are usually thinking about how mentally sensitive they are. Remember that everybody has some degree of sensitivity and the trait of sensitivity itself is not bad. The challenge may arise when a dog is overly sensitive when confronted with situations. Over-sensitivity inhibits learning or performance. Thought of in this way, the definition of Lardy is compatible when he says “Sensitivity can be thought of as the psychological reaction to pressure. Pressure could be an aversive stimulus such as a loud “No” . . . or a nick from an e-collar (see the entire article at www.totalretriever.com).

Softness is often used interchangeably with sensitivity but it has a different connotation to it. For one, it seems to be associated with a particular degree of sensitivity that often has a physical reaction. For example, the dog may totally cave into the stimulus (pressure) and actually quit retrieving or doing anything else. In other cases, the dog will exhibit extreme submissive behaviour such as lying down, belly-up or curling around your leg. Some of this behaviour is “escape behaviour that the dog has learned might stop the pressure. Quite often these dogs take a long time to recover from the pressure incident. As a generality these dogs have lower retrieving desire or perhaps it is that softness is not masked when combined with low desire. I find it helpful to think about softness as the physical response to the situation. A dog who physically quits is soft. A dog that gets cold too easily in the water and refuses to continue is soft.

Sensibility is another trait that needs consideration. Sensible dogs have common sense. Invariably, they have a good temperament. While we all know that common sense is not that common (even among humans!), a sensible dog responds to situations and stimuli in a balanced and thoughtful way. Sensibility seems to be linked to retrieving desire in our dogs. A dog over-whelmed with retrieving desire is often not very sensible. A dog that is very sensitive and soft may act only in fear and forget all of his training. Such a response would not appear to us to be very sensible even though to the dog he is just trying to survive. Sensibility in humans often shows intelligence and similarly sensible dogs are often on the higher end of the intelligence scale.

Smartness is intelligence which includes the ability to learn and to apply learned things. When not overwhelmed with extremes of sensitivity or desire, intelligent dogs can show very thoughtful decisions. I know trainers who consider high intelligence a negative trait in their retrievers (something about the dogs being too smart for their own good). I am completely contrary in my views. For today’s advanced work I’ll take the intelligent dog every time not only for teaching but for thinking during competition. Sure those dogs will figure out ways to get what they want and present training challenges that the less smart dog wouldn’t dream of, but smartness can never be considered a bad trait in my book.

Each one of the above traits has been linked to “desire” in its discussion. That is no accident since “retrieving desire” is among the most important traits today’s retriever must have. Retrieving desire actually comes in two forms – one is as a measure of the dog’s drive and passion to retrieve or go and fetch an object. It can also be a measure of a dog’s birdiness and desire to retrieve those birds. They don’t necessarily mean the same thing. Witness the tremendous birdiness of some pointers who couldn’t care less about retrieving bumpers. Many retrievers have very high bird retrieving desire but it far outweighs their bumper retrieving desire. Others get just as crazy for bumpers as birds it seems. Retrievers that have very low desire for bumpers and for birds are not candidates for field trials or hunt tests or even as a competent handling dog. Simply find them a good home. Fortunately, almost all of today’s field lines seldom display such dogs. In contrast it is more common to uncover retrievers that are “over the top” in retrieving desire. These dogs present a host of their own problems and can present formidable challenges. When such dogs are packaged with low sensibility, extremes of mental sensitivity or physical softness (and toughness), you may also be confronted with an unsuitable candidate.

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