Points losing intensity?

[zigzag]

I have moved from pigeons in a launcher to pen raised bob white quail I bought from a game farm. I am trying to set up a hunt test simulation with my young dog 11 months. I planted 3 birds (dizzed them up) In a field similar to the one that will be used for the hunt test> Braced the dog with another young Vizsla we train together somtimes. So to get to the point.. My dog hunts good finds the birds. But he is flagging the bird and standing right over it no sign of a solid point. Is there somthing I should be doing diffrently? He has never done this with pigeons.

[SetterNut]

There are a couple things that you may want to do.
First, you don't want the dog getting that close to the bird. Pen Raised quail often don't flush or fly like they should. You may want to put the quail in a launch so that you can get the bird out of there if he gets too close or doesn't point.



But the flagging may be a sign that you are moving his training forward too fast. You may be putting too much pressure on the dog too fast. If you are trying to keep the dog from chasing when he is not ready for it, thats a lot of pressure. Dogs develp at different speeds, remember there is no real rush.

Without seeing the dog I am just making an educated guess. ..

One thing that will often get a dog intensity up is to shoot a bird for them. May be needed.
But I don't like pen raised quai for training with a young dog, they don't fly off the field like a pigeon does, and that increases the pressure on the dog.

[zigzag]

Yes I agree I dont want to use the pen quail, I do want to let him hunt in diffrent settings not just at his trainers place with pigeons. I also want him to run with a brace mate so this training set up seems good. The Flagging is strange, I never stop him from chasing and I have shot birds for him. In fact I did shoot one today. If this flagging has somthing to do with the dizzed bird? or the diffrent scent?

[SetterNut]

Yes I agree I dont want to use the pen quail, I do want to let him hunt in diffrent settings not just at his trainers place with pigeons. I also want him to run with a brace mate so this training set up seems good. The Flagging is strange, I never stop him from chasing and I have shot birds for him. In fact I did shoot one today. If this flagging has somthing to do with the dizzed bird? or the diffrent scent?

Its hard to say about the flagging, but I would guess that it has to do with him being uncertain or feeling pressure.
You might run him in the training field without birds a time or two, just to change it up.

I am not sure why you want to run him with a bracemate? I think you would be better off with him just focusing on the bird and not have the distraction of the other dog our there at this point. Who knows, maybe the uncertainty of having the other dog there is causing the flagging. Never hurt to back up a step when things don't go a planned.

[SCT]

Try and get your hands on some fresh trapped pigeons. I wouldn't use those quail or any other bird that will let the pup get that close. If you have to use the quail you need to pop them out of a launcher before he gets close. Set it up so you bring him in downwind of the quail and let him point it. If he shows any sign of scenting the bird and takes another step launch the bird. He needs to learn to point at first scent. You need to simulate wild birds as much as you can. Wild birds are the key.

Steve

[RayGubernat]

zigzag -

I would say that your dog figured out it could get close to those dizzied birdsbut still did not want to pounce, probably for fear of correction... so the flagging.

To me the key here(as others above have said) is to not allow the dog to get close. In management terms, he dog has to have its objectivity heightened a bit. Might be time for some stop to flush drills, mixed in with dry runs. You gotta keep it fresh for the dog and keep them guessing.

The dog has to learn that getting too close has negative consequences. If you have(or can borrow) a remote launcher or two, put the quail in there and bring the dog in. When the dog gets within 20 yards...pop the trap, and whoa the dog to the flight of the bird, even though the dog did not smell the bird. I would also do the pigeons in launchers thing and pop the traps for a simulation of stop to flush on the pigeons. Since the dog was doing it right on pigeons, I might start doing stop to flushes with them.

I would not dizzy birds for your dog until well after it has shown that it will reliably stop at first scent. One of the things you can do to stock birds without dizzying or handling is to use boxes with remote doors. They can be of cardboard or wood or even wire mesh, but the concept here is to put the box near a piece of cover, back off and then open the side of the box facing the cover remotely with a string. A sliding panel works great for allowing a quail or two to walk out of the box and walk into the nearby cover. This way they are fully alert, and less likely to allow the dog to get too close. one downside is that you will not know exactly where the birds are.

If the dog does get too close and flags...I would reach in, collar the dog and physically pull it away, then pick the dog up, walk it back several steps and set the dog back up. then make it stand there for a good, long time, like five minutes(by your watch), before moving the dog out of there and resuming the hunt. Whether the bird flushes or not as you get the dog and reposition it means nothing. in fact it is probably better if it does flush whlie you are in physical control of the dog. Bring it back and make it stand. Five minutes is a long time and it will seem like an eternity to a dog that is driven to hunt.

Oh and do all of this calmly and quietly, with no emotion, no unnecessary roughness and as little verbalization as possible.

RayG

[bb560m]

The other dog might also be creating a ton of pressure so your dog feels it's "his bird" and just wants to eat the thing instead of point it before the other dog comes... He might not be ready to be braced with another dog yet until his confidence is up and doesn't feel threatened the other dog will steal his bird.

[zigzag]

Thanks for the tips, I will take a few steps back. The only reason for this is to prepare him for an upcoming JR hunt test. We ran are first JR trial, Last week and the things I noticed that went wrong was no experince running with other dog in bird field. He only has run with other dogs when playing at the park or in a field with no birds. So he wanted to play with he his brace mate rather then hunt. I also wanted him to scent diffrent birds in a diffrent setting. At the end of the day I am questioning myself, seems my objective has taken a turn. When we started I just wanted a good hunting dog now it seems I'm trying to make him a trial dog.

[birddog1968]

I'd forget the JR test, its about getting the dog right not making a date for a test.....there will always be SR once the dog is ready.

Also remember what you allow him to do you are training him to do.....this is one reason dog parks would be off my list of locales to visit, at least
until the dog is a birddog first.

[RayGubernat]

At the end of the day I am questioning myself, seems my objective has taken a turn. When we started I just wanted a good hunting dog now it seems I'm trying to make him a trial dog.

There is absolutely no reason whatsoever that you cannot have both...in the same dog. A good trial or test dog had better be a good hunting dog or we are all doing something wrong!!

Just take your time, keep it fun...for both of you... and keep you eye on the prize. Knowing what you want is half the battle. Once you know what that is, you can design a plan to get you there and you can see where you are relative to where you want to be.

Keep asking questions. The only dumb question is the one you don't ask, because if you don't ask, you will never know the answer.

Plan your work...then go out and work your plan.

RayG

[SetterNut]

At the end of the day I am questioning myself, seems my objective has taken a turn. When we started I just wanted a good hunting dog now it seems I'm trying to make him a trial dog.

There is absolutely no reason whatsoever that you cannot have both...in the same dog. A good trial or test dog had better be a good hunting dog or we are all doing something wrong!!

Just take your time, keep it fun...for both of you... and keep you eye on the prize. Knowing what you want is half the battle. Once you know what that is, you can design a plan to get you there and you can see where you are relative to where you want to be.

Keep asking questions. The only dumb question is the one you don't ask, because if you don't ask, you will never know the answer.

Plan your work...then go out and work your plan.

RayG

Bunch of good advice in that post. Take note of the last part, as it is key to making progress with a dog, with minimal train wrecks.

[buckmaster]

Could just be the birds....and their scent. The dog could smell your scent on the birds...or there is a theory athat penned game birds smell like dead birds...too much sent..put off to many fear pheremones..and especially for versatiale dogs they get conflicted...sort of smells like a live bird they should point...sort of smells like a dead bird they should be retreiving. That leads to flagging.
That is a benefit of keeping you quail in a johnny house, is they are "air washed" and don't smell like dead / injured birds.
When I trained my older english setter with quail..particularly ones that had been in the box for an hour or so...she would flag them...or locate then walk away disinterested. Especially if she could smell my scent on the bird or on a launcher.
I had to wear my rubber boots and gloves hen I handled the bird to reduce the problem.
Initially I wasn't sure what the flagging issue was...she showed no interest in the first 3 birds after locating. Then my buddy driving the atv accidently let loose 5 more from the same box while driving. While walking the mile back to the farm house she stuck 3 of the five singles with the same intensity she shows wild birds like grouse.
So same box of birds...if I touched them...no interest...if they didn't fly and weren't airwashed by flying before being placed..she also had not interest or flagged...birds allowed to fly out of box without being touched for some distance....no issues no flagging.

[gonehuntin']

HOW did he get that close to the birds? Did he road in on them or just happen to run by that close? If he roaded in on them, then a launcher and a touch of electricity is the cure. As soon as he makes scent and turns, launch the bird. Tolerate no creeping, no movement. If he wags his tail, "flags", launch the bird.

Launchers are nearly as valuable as the electric collar.

[Ruffshooter]

The dog needs to be a fully independent bird finder and hunter.
Getting up on the bird, to close, check cord, launcher with the quail. The second that dog gets scent of the bird and makes the move to the quail, launch it. If he comes up and points lightly praise up if he flinches towards the bird, launch it. If his tail starts to drop or he seems like he is loosing interest, launch it. YADAYADA etc.
No brace mate till he is confident. Don't rush it. A JR does nothing for you at this point. If you get your dog strongly independent and confidently finding and standing the birds, a bracemate will mean nothing to your dog because the focus will be birds. IMO

Also just a note, you do not need to dizzy the bird too hard. Rock it back and forth then toss into the high cover or place in the cover with cover over it. If you dizzy to hard they puke alittle and I suspect that smells different. I know I do. May not matter but one thing to eliminate from the equation.
Rick

[Sharon]

error

[Sharon]

But the flagging may be a sign that you are moving his training forward too fast. You may be putting too much pressure on the dog too fast. If you are trying to keep the dog from chasing when he is not ready for it, thats a lot of pressure. Dogs develp at different speeds, remember there is no real rush.

One thing that will often get a dog intensity up is to shoot a bird for them. May be needed.
But I don't like pen raised quai for training with a young dog, they don't fly off the field like a pigeon does, and that increases the pressure on the dog.

Exactly . Well said.

[DonF]

So, do you live in Portland or ZigZag?

[4dabirds]

Get the dog off your schedule it will be ready when the dogs progress tells you it's ready ,stop worrying about your ego, it's about the dog not winning in a certain time frame.the dog could care less about a ribbon.

[Hattrick]

[quote][/quote]HOW did he get that close to the birds? Did he road in on them or just happen to run by that close? If he roaded in on them, then a launcher and a touch of electricity is the cure. As soon as he makes scent and turns, launch the bird. Tolerate no creeping, no movement. If he wags his tail, "flags", launch the bird.

PLUS 1 on this.

Flagging in my opion comes from boredom or talking to him on point. be quiet let the bird do the talking, popping birds goes along way. the only thing i would add is a check cord and minus the electricity only cus i don't no ur dog.

[zigzag]

So, do you live in Portland or ZigZag?

I live in portland. I just got a pigeon loft started with 7 young birds. I am in the market for a launcher or two. After running the dog again with Trainer Pigeons and launchers we got his points back on track, still some flagging but after poping some birds he figured it out.

[Hattrick]

glad to hear it! keep rolling:)

[zzgour]

Take your time, there is a big difference between pigeons in a launcher and released quail and wild birds.