pointer prefers to hunt&chase fur instead of birds

molonlave1 · Post by **molonlave1** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:18 pm

Got a 3year old pointer who will rather hunt,chase buck instead of birds,although there are birds in the area.Have shot birds over him a couple of times but if theres fur scent in the same location he will rather hunt for that and wont give up until he actually finds the buck or whatever and will give chase.Can anyone offer any good advice or a solution to this problem?

Post by **Sharon** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:45 pm

trash breaking with an e collar . Be sure that's what you want do though. You could use him on fur and buy another bird dog.

molonlave1 · Post by **molonlave1** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:13 pm

SHOULD I JUST PUT THE E-COLLAR ON AND AS SOON AS I SEE HIM CHASING BUCK,LET HIM HAVE IT?[

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:34 pm

Mol, what kind of background does your dog have? Have you shot fur for him before? Have you had him since a pup? Has he had much exposure to wild birds? Tell us some about the dog and what training and exposure he's had until now.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:46 pm

molonlave1 wrote:SHOULD I JUST PUT THE E-COLLAR ON AND AS SOON AS I SEE HIM CHASING BUCK,LET HIM HAVE IT?[

Yes, and keep letting him have it until he returns to you. Of course, you should call him in, too. Deer chasing is not a good thing at all. Small trash game, you can move him along and hope birds are more appealing, but deer can get you a shot or run over dog quickly. I don't know if anyone near you has a deer breaking pen, but it is very effective to let a territorial doe address the interest in deer in a dog.

molonlave1 · Post by **molonlave1** » Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:04 pm

YES,GOT HIM WHEN HE WAS EIGHT WEEKS OLD,EXPOSURE ON WILD BIRDS HAS BEEN PLENTY,BUT HIS ALWAYS BEEN INTERESTED ON FUR SINCE HE WAS ABT 8 MONTHS OLD WHEN HE ENCOUNTERED HIS 1ST DUIKER(small buck species here in south africa).NO TRAINING ON PIGEONS OR LAUNCHERS JUST BEEN INTRODUCED TO WILD GAME BIRDS SINCE FROM THE AGE OF 5MONTHS.LIKE IVE SAID BEFORE HIS POINTED BIRDS FOR ME WHICH IVE SHOT OVER HIM BUT IF THERE IS FUR AROUND WHERE THERES BIRDS HE WILL RATHER GO AND HUNT FOR THE BUCK INSTEAD OF THE BIRDS AND HE ACTUALLY FINDS AND POINTS THEM WHEREVER THEY ARE AND AS SOON THEY TAKE OFF HE WILL CHASE AND NOT GIVE UP AND HAVE NEVER USED A COLLAR ON HIM BEFORE.

Georgia Boy · Post by **Georgia Boy** » Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:32 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:
molonlave1 wrote:SHOULD I JUST PUT THE E-COLLAR ON AND AS SOON AS I SEE HIM CHASING BUCK,LET HIM HAVE IT?[
Yes, and keep letting him have it until he returns to you. Of course, you should call him in, too. Deer chasing is not a good thing at all. Small trash game, you can move him along and hope birds are more appealing, but deer can get you a shot or run over dog quickly. I don't know if anyone near you has a deer breaking pen, but it is very effective to let a territorial doe address the interest in deer in a dog.

I would like to see that

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:39 pm

Georgia Boy wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:
molonlave1 wrote:SHOULD I JUST PUT THE E-COLLAR ON AND AS SOON AS I SEE HIM CHASING BUCK,LET HIM HAVE IT?[
Yes, and keep letting him have it until he returns to you. Of course, you should call him in, too. Deer chasing is not a good thing at all. Small trash game, you can move him along and hope birds are more appealing, but deer can get you a shot or run over dog quickly. I don't know if anyone near you has a deer breaking pen, but it is very effective to let a territorial doe address the interest in deer in a dog.
I would like to see that

See what?

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:01 pm

I would be careful to just light a dog up for chasing, depending on the situation. If he's not been very well acclimated to a collar, is overly soft or if the situation involves a number of other issues I would tread lightly. If he's not been in contact with many game birds, even if they're in the area, he may be chasing to fill his time and may knock it off when he realizes the birds is where the fun's at. Then again, maybe not. In any case, just frying your dog without having broken him off of trash before could be detrimental. You may want to get ahold of a local pro and ask him for some help or ask him how he'd go about it with your dog. Often times pros have people over on the weekend, a big group, you bring your dogs and just spend the day hanging out and training. It's a lot of fun and I would ask around if I were you. You just don't want to ruin a dog when some time could have helped mend the problem.

If you could still provide some background on the dog, that would be great.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:13 pm

Stoneface wrote:I would be careful to just light a dog up for chasing, depending on the situation. If he's not been very well acclimated to a collar, is overly soft or if the situation involves a number of other issues I would tread lightly. If he's not been in contact with many game birds, even if they're in the area, he may be chasing to fill his time and may knock it off when he realizes the birds is where the fun's at. Then again, maybe not. In any case, just frying your dog without having broken him off of trash before could be detrimental. You may want to get ahold of a local pro and ask him for some help or ask him how he'd go about it with your dog. Often times pros have people over on the weekend, a big group, you bring your dogs and just spend the day hanging out and training. It's a lot of fun and I would ask around if I were you. You just don't want to ruin a dog when some time could have helped mend the problem.

If you could still provide some background on the dog, that would be great.

You don't understand trash breaking. The collor is set on high and you DO NOT speak to the dog. Just light it up till it stops chasing but you act like nothing happened. The point is to make the dog think it was the deer that shocked it and it had no connection to you. Once usually takes care of the problem but if it doesn't do it again.

Ezzy

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:20 pm

Nearly every dog I know of, including my own, that was a deer runner gave himself away with his loud mouth. Hear that, and all you have to do is dial it up and hold it down. Same with pigs.

TChism · Post by **TChism** » Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:23 pm

"You don't understand trash breaking. The collor is set on high and you DO NOT speak to the dog. Just light it up till it stops chasing but you act like nothing happened. The point is to make the dog think it was the deer that shocked it and it had no connection to you. Once usually takes care of the problem but if it doesn't do it again."

I agree with this. If they decide to chase a deer, or rabbit, or coyote ect. Light Em UP and Shut Up. Assuming you don't want them to point or retrieve any of those.

molonlave1 · Post by **molonlave1** » Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:06 pm

WHAT MORE INFO WOULD YOU LIKE ON OR ABOUT MY LITTLE CHASER,AND YOU ARE CORRECT WHEN YOU CAN HEAR THEM WHEN THEY ARE AFTER BUCK,MINE IS THE SAME.AND IVE NEVER SHOT ANY FUR OVER HIM.

SHORTFAT · Post by **SHORTFAT** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:49 am

HEE HEE HEE... WHEN MY DOG WAS ABOUT 10 MONTHS OLD SHE RAN SMACK INTO A FAWN... I lit her up good and that fawn kicked the living daylights out of the dog! LOL She came ki-yiein' back up the hill to me with her tail between her legs and hid behind me! To this day if there is a deer in the back yard, she wants let in the house! I got really lucky that day!

tasi devil · Post by **tasi devil** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:00 am

ezzy333 wrote: You don't understand trash breaking. The collor is set on high and you DO NOT speak to the dog. Just light it up till it stops chasing but you act like nothing happened. The point is to make the dog think it was the deer that shocked it and it had no connection to you. Once usually takes care of the problem but if it doesn't do it again.
Ezzy

Molonlave1, be careful what you read on these forums, Ezzy & TChism are correct. it ain't rocket science
i would add
* make sure you can see what the dog is doing before you hit the button.
* do not stimulate if you 'think' it's deer scent. wait till he bumps & chases then stimulate. he will forever associate the scent with the deer.
* do not keep stimulating the dog till it returns to you.
* do not put your dog in a deer pen, it will end up dead.
* have your dog wear an e-collar or dummy collar at all times hunting/training so it doesn't associate the extreme stimulation with the collar.
* above all else keep the stimulation up till he gives up the chase, belt him again if he even thinks about continuing[in my experience it won't take long].
* i will reiterate, keep your mouth shut, ignore the dog, keep walking.
as some background, i run my dogs in country with sheep/cattle/roo/possums/wombats/bandicoots/quolls/rabbits/hares.
i shoot deer/rabbits/hares/roo/possums with my older dogs once they've learnt not to chase.
Saturday,Sunday,Monday i ran my dog through paddocks that contained sheep/cattle/deer/rabbits/hares no problem. i didn't shoot any furred game because that dog is not ready yet on feather let alone fur.

.................tasi

molonlave1 · Post by **molonlave1** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:11 am

THANKS FOR THE INFO AND ALL THE INPUT GUYS/GALS.WILL DO JUST AS YOU TOLD ME AS SOON AS I GET A CHANCE TO TAKE HIM OUT AGAIN.

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:43 am

ezzy333 wrote:
Stoneface wrote:I would be careful to just light a dog up for chasing, depending on the situation. If he's not been very well acclimated to a collar, is overly soft or if the situation involves a number of other issues I would tread lightly. If he's not been in contact with many game birds, even if they're in the area, he may be chasing to fill his time and may knock it off when he realizes the birds is where the fun's at. Then again, maybe not. In any case, just frying your dog without having broken him off of trash before could be detrimental. You may want to get ahold of a local pro and ask him for some help or ask him how he'd go about it with your dog. Often times pros have people over on the weekend, a big group, you bring your dogs and just spend the day hanging out and training. It's a lot of fun and I would ask around if I were you. You just don't want to ruin a dog when some time could have helped mend the problem.

If you could still provide some background on the dog, that would be great.
You don't understand trash breaking. The collor is set on high and you DO NOT speak to the dog. Just light it up till it stops chasing but you act like nothing happened. The point is to make the dog think it was the deer that shocked it and it had no connection to you. Once usually takes care of the problem but if it doesn't do it again.

Ezzy

I'm not saying not to trash break a dog and I'm not saying I think trash breaking is a bad thing. I'm saying it depends on the dog and his situation. If the dog's been brought up by this guy since he was a puppy, is not a head case and such then break him off of chasing. But, what if the dog hasn't had any exposure to an eCollar yet? What if this guy just got him off a guy who beat the dog or shocked him off of birds (maybe why he isn't showing much interest in wild birds)? Then you shock the dog and do way more damage than needed to be done.

I'm not saying don't trash break a dog. I'm saying don't trash break a dog if the dog can't handle it. That's why I want to know the dog's background.

molonlave1 · Post by **molonlave1** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:19 am

THINK HAVE MENTIONED BEFORE THAT IVE HAD THE PUP SINCE HE WAS 8 WEEKS OLD HIS NOW 3YRS OLD,NOT MY 1ST POINTER,MY FOURTH ACTUALLY MY BREEDING.HE IS ON THE SOFT SIDE UNTIL HIS CHASING OBVIOUSLY THEN HIS A DEMON.EXPOSURE ON BIRDS HAS BEEN PLENTY,THERS EVEN DAYS WHEN HE DOES SOME OUTSTANDING WORK ON BIRDS.THE REASON I HAVENT USED THE SHOCK COLLAR IS BECAUSE HIS ON THE SOFTISH SIDE,SENSITIVE.THATS Y I POSTED THE QUESTION BEFORE I DO SOMETHING AND MESS UP MY DOG.AND HAVE NEVER SHOT ANY FUR OVER HIM WHATSOEVER

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:11 am

Stoneface wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:
Stoneface wrote:I would be careful to just light a dog up for chasing, depending on the situation. If he's not been very well acclimated to a collar, is overly soft or if the situation involves a number of other issues I would tread lightly. If he's not been in contact with many game birds, even if they're in the area, he may be chasing to fill his time and may knock it off when he realizes the birds is where the fun's at. Then again, maybe not. In any case, just frying your dog without having broken him off of trash before could be detrimental. You may want to get ahold of a local pro and ask him for some help or ask him how he'd go about it with your dog. Often times pros have people over on the weekend, a big group, you bring your dogs and just spend the day hanging out and training. It's a lot of fun and I would ask around if I were you. You just don't want to ruin a dog when some time could have helped mend the problem.

If you could still provide some background on the dog, that would be great.
You don't understand trash breaking. The collor is set on high and you DO NOT speak to the dog. Just light it up till it stops chasing but you act like nothing happened. The point is to make the dog think it was the deer that shocked it and it had no connection to you. Once usually takes care of the problem but if it doesn't do it again.

Ezzy
E-collars have two distinct functions in dog training. The protocol for each is completely different from each other. You, my friend, are trying to combine the two and it will get you in trouble, sooner or later. Trash breaking, when done properly has no connection to training with an e-collar or with you. Keep it swift, simple, and harsh and it will work quickly.

Ezzy
I'm not saying not to trash break a dog and I'm not saying I think trash breaking is a bad thing. I'm saying it depends on the dog and his situation. If the dog's been brought up by this guy since he was a puppy, is not a head case and such then break him off of chasing. But, what if the dog hasn't had any exposure to an eCollar yet? What if this guy just got him off a guy who beat the dog or shocked him off of birds (maybe why he isn't showing much interest in wild birds)? Then you shock the dog and do way more damage than needed to be done.

I'm not saying don't trash break a dog. I'm saying don't trash break a dog if the dog can't handle it. That's why I want to know the dog's background.

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:45 am

I can appreciate what you're saying, Ezzy, but I still disagree. A dog doesn't get zapped then go, "okay, that one was because I was chasing a deer so when we're doing Whoa drills later I won't pay no nevermind to this." When I just turned 16 I got my first eCollar because everybody said I needed one. I went out with my dog that didn't like to recall when he found something interesting in the field. I called for him, he didn't come, so I lit him up. I thought that's what you were supposed to do. In reality I shouldn't have been allowed within ten foot of an eCollar. Until then he was a pretty decent dog and I hadn't done anything to totally screw him up. After that training became a hassle because before long every time I put that collar on him he froze up on me and just shut down. If I could go back now with what I've learned I could mend the issue, but back then I just didn't have a chance, didn't have the experience or knowledge.

I've never had to break any of my personal dogs off of running game, but am not against it and it's not rocket science (like tasi said). Under a few circumstances a dog is just not ready for it. It may just be 5% of the time, but when you're going to lay on the transmitter and fry a dog, that dog should not be a fruit loop.

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:13 am

A dog doesn't get zapped then go, "okay, that one was because I was chasing a deer so when we're doing Whoa drills later I won't pay no nevermind to this."

Sorry, but you don't understand trash breaking or the proper use of the ecollar.

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:26 am

Stoneface wrote:I can appreciate what you're saying, Ezzy, but I still disagree. A dog doesn't get zapped then go, "okay, that one was because I was chasing a deer so when we're doing Whoa drills later I won't pay no nevermind to this." When I just turned 16 I got my first eCollar because everybody said I needed one. I went out with my dog that didn't like to recall when he found something interesting in the field. I called for him, he didn't come, so I lit him up. I thought that's what you were supposed to do. In reality I shouldn't have been allowed within ten foot of an eCollar. Until then he was a pretty decent dog and I hadn't done anything to totally screw him up. After that training became a hassle because before long every time I put that collar on him he froze up on me and just shut down. If I could go back now with what I've learned I could mend the issue, but back then I just didn't have a chance, didn't have the experience or knowledge.

I've never had to break any of my personal dogs off of running game, but am not against it and it's not rocket science (like tasi said). Under a few circumstances a dog is just not ready for it. It may just be 5% of the time, but when you're going to lay on the transmitter and fry a dog, that dog should not be a fruit loop.

Sounds like your situation was more you not being ready for the ecollar than the dog. I think if the dog is conditioned to the ecollar (has been wearing it during fun time for a couple months) then trash breaking will go smoothly. The only thing the dog can associate the stimulation with is the deer.

molonlave1 · Post by **molonlave1** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:54 am

I WANT TO PUT A STOP TO THIS GUYS,SO HOW DO I GO ABOUT IT NOW,THATS WHY WE ARE ON THIS FORUM,TO GIVE GOOD SOUND ADVICE,IF I NEED TO USE THE COLLAR,ILL USE IT IF ITS GOING TO HELP IF NOT I WONT.I DONT WANT TO CONDITION THE DOG TO THE COLLAR BECAUSE THE ONLY PROBLEM I HAVE IS WITH FUR,I WANT TO FIX THIS AND PUT THE COLLAR AWAY THEN IF IT HELPS.IF NIT AINT GOING TO HELP WHAT WILL,MORE BIRDS,LAUNCHERS,ETC?

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:06 am

molonlave1 wrote:I WANT TO PUT A STOP TO THIS GUYS,SO HOW DO I GO ABOUT IT NOW,THATS WHY WE ARE ON THIS FORUM,TO GIVE GOOD SOUND ADVICE,IF I NEED TO USE THE COLLAR,ILL USE IT IF ITS GOING TO HELP IF NOT I WONT.I DONT WANT TO CONDITION THE DOG TO THE COLLAR BECAUSE THE ONLY PROBLEM I HAVE IS WITH FUR,I WANT TO FIX THIS AND PUT THE COLLAR AWAY THEN IF IT HELPS.IF NIT AINT GOING TO HELP WHAT WILL,MORE BIRDS,LAUNCHERS,ETC?

My opinion is that it will help if you use it when you know he has committed to going after a deer. There doesn't need to be an introduction because you want to make a sudden association between pain and deer. You can't really introduce the collar for this unless you have access to pen deer or elk where you can leash him in and train him off, later overlaying the e-collar. You can let him wear the collar to get used to the feel if you like, but trash breaking is not a gentle, gradual process.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:20 am

Stoneface wrote:I can appreciate what you're saying, Ezzy, but I still disagree. A dog doesn't get zapped then go, "okay, that one was because I was chasing a deer so when we're doing Whoa drills later I won't pay no nevermind to this." When I just turned 16 I got my first eCollar because everybody said I needed one. I went out with my dog that didn't like to recall when he found something interesting in the field. I called for him, he didn't come, so I lit him up. I thought that's what you were supposed to do. In reality I shouldn't have been allowed within ten foot of an eCollar. Until then he was a pretty decent dog and I hadn't done anything to totally screw him up. After that training became a hassle because before long every time I put that collar on him he froze up on me and just shut down. If I could go back now with what I've learned I could mend the issue, but back then I just didn't have a chance, didn't have the experience or knowledge.

I've never had to break any of my personal dogs off of running game, but am not against it and it's not rocket science (like tasi said). Under a few circumstances a dog is just not ready for it. It may just be 5% of the time, but when you're going to lay on the transmitter and fry a dog, that dog should not be a fruit loop.

What I suggested was not an opinion, but is something I have done and I have seen countless other do also. It works if you follow what I said. If you try to connect it to collar conditioning then just forget it. The purpose of this is for the animal being chased to punish the dog to where it doesn't do it again and even advoids the animal whenever possible. Exactly the same as snake advoidance. Would you choose not to teach snake advoidance so the puppy doesn't have to suffer some pain? Just doesn't work that way.

Ezzy

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:23 am

molonlave1 wrote:I WANT TO PUT A STOP TO THIS GUYS,SO HOW DO I GO ABOUT IT NOW,THATS WHY WE ARE ON THIS FORUM,TO GIVE GOOD SOUND ADVICE,IF I NEED TO USE THE COLLAR,ILL USE IT IF ITS GOING TO HELP IF NOT I WONT.I DONT WANT TO CONDITION THE DOG TO THE COLLAR BECAUSE THE ONLY PROBLEM I HAVE IS WITH FUR,I WANT TO FIX THIS AND PUT THE COLLAR AWAY THEN IF IT HELPS.IF NIT AINT GOING TO HELP WHAT WILL,MORE BIRDS,LAUNCHERS,ETC?

It will make it much better to read if you use the small letters and not the caps. Saves a lot of space also.

Thank you,

Ezzy

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:51 am

Is anyone concerned about trash breaking without letting the dog wear the collar for a while in case he may learn he can chase without the collar on? That's what I meant when I said condition the dog to the collar...may not have been the right term to use.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:04 am

DogNewbie wrote:Is anyone concerned about trash breaking without letting the dog wear the collar for a while in case he may learn he can chase without the collar on? That's what I meant when I said condition the dog to the collar...may not have been the right term to use.

This is a hunting dog. No reason to not have a collar on him when he's out. He will be wearing it without it being used until he hits a deer, anyway.

molonlave1 · Post by **molonlave1** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:57 am

You are correct,will take him out with e-collar on,the ground i utilise has got small buck,what we in South Africa call duiker.And will always put it on him when i go out.At some stage id like to stop using it though.But does someone know why he well prefer to go after buck when theres birds in the area.Recall when he was about a 16 months he caught a sheep on a farm i was shooting on,didnt kill it but tasted some blood.As u can all imagine the landowner wasnt very impressed but all was resolved,do you guys think it comes from there?

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:47 am

Catching the sheep certainly reinforced his desire to chase hooved stock. He is responding to a visual stimulus on the buck. I would almost suggest some drag trailing to get his head down and his nose working.

molonlave1 · Post by **molonlave1** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:01 pm

Noticed when his picked up buck scent his head is up picking up air scent and he trails it exactly to the same direction the the buck has gone if he hasnt seen it run but i have,his even pointed them for me when theyve been lying down in cover.

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:27 pm

Newbie, you're right. I was the problem, not the dog. I just meant to say that if you just go out and, out of the blue, without regard for a dog's situation then it could be detrimental.

As it is, though, the guy sounds like a pretty thoughtful, sensable guy who has some experience under his belt.

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:59 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:Catching the sheep certainly reinforced his desire to chase hooved stock. He is responding to a visual stimulus on the buck. I would almost suggest some drag trailing to get his head down and his nose working.

You have to crazy to suggest to anyone that their dog needs to get his head down. We all breed and train for a high head and we sure don't want trailing.

Ezzy

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:35 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:Catching the sheep certainly reinforced his desire to chase hooved stock. He is responding to a visual stimulus on the buck. I would almost suggest some drag trailing to get his head down and his nose working.
You have to crazy to suggest to anyone that their dog needs to get his head down. We all breed and train for a high head and we sure don't want trailing.

Ezzy

I will pass that along to everyone I know in NAVHDA. Thanks for the heads up.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:48 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
Stoneface wrote:I can appreciate what you're saying, Ezzy, but I still disagree. A dog doesn't get zapped then go, "okay, that one was because I was chasing a deer so when we're doing Whoa drills later I won't pay no nevermind to this." When I just turned 16 I got my first eCollar because everybody said I needed one. I went out with my dog that didn't like to recall when he found something interesting in the field. I called for him, he didn't come, so I lit him up. I thought that's what you were supposed to do. In reality I shouldn't have been allowed within ten foot of an eCollar. Until then he was a pretty decent dog and I hadn't done anything to totally screw him up. After that training became a hassle because before long every time I put that collar on him he froze up on me and just shut down. If I could go back now with what I've learned I could mend the issue, but back then I just didn't have a chance, didn't have the experience or knowledge.

I've never had to break any of my personal dogs off of running game, but am not against it and it's not rocket science (like tasi said). Under a few circumstances a dog is just not ready for it. It may just be 5% of the time, but when you're going to lay on the transmitter and fry a dog, that dog should not be a fruit loop.
What I suggested was not an opinion, but is something I have done and I have seen countless other do also. It works if you follow what I said. If you try to connect it to collar conditioning then just forget it. The purpose of this is for the animal being chased to punish the dog to where it doesn't do it again and even advoids the animal whenever possible. Exactly the same as snake advoidance. Would you choose not to teach snake advoidance so the puppy doesn't have to suffer some pain? Just doesn't work that way.

Ezzy

Exactly right!! Light him up at the proper time and it is fixed......And with a few seconds of pain, you probably just saved his life.

Charlie

molonlave1 · Post by **molonlave1** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:58 pm

must i put the setting on the collar to the highest possible level or find a medium and then go higher?

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:07 pm

What brand and model of e-collar do you have? I go all the way up for deer and pig breaking.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:22 pm

I use the highest setting and hold it until it shuts off. I think most of them are programmed to shut off after approximately 8 seconds of continuous hold.

Charlie

tasi devil · Post by **tasi devil** » Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:39 am

molonlave1; PM sent

............tasi

tasi devil · Post by **tasi devil** » Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:50 am

Stoneface wrote:I can appreciate what you're saying, Ezzy, but I still disagree. A dog doesn't get zapped then go, "okay, that one was because I was chasing a deer so when we're doing Whoa drills later I won't pay no nevermind to this." When I just turned 16 I got my first eCollar because everybody said I needed one. I went out with my dog that didn't like to recall when he found something interesting in the field. I called for him, he didn't come, so I lit him up. I thought that's what you were supposed to do. In reality I shouldn't have been allowed within ten foot of an eCollar. Until then he was a pretty decent dog and I hadn't done anything to totally screw him up. After that training became a hassle because before long every time I put that collar on him he froze up on me and just shut down. If I could go back now with what I've learned I could mend the issue, but back then I just didn't have a chance, didn't have the experience or knowledge.

I've never had to break any of my personal dogs off of running game, but am not against it and it's not rocket science (like tasi said). Under a few circumstances a dog is just not ready for it. It may just be 5% of the time, but when you're going to lay on the transmitter and fry a dog, that dog should not be a fruit loop.

if your going to quote me try doing it in context

Molonlave1, be careful what you read on these forums, Ezzy & TChism are correct. it ain't rocket science

and as brad27 said & you've admitted above (underlined)

Sorry, but you don't understand trash breaking or the proper use of the ecollar

and neither btw does cajun casey

i'm done, no further comment

..........tasi

bigdaddy · Post by **bigdaddy** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:04 pm

Stoneface wrote:Newbie, you're right. I was the problem, not the dog. I just meant to say that if you just go out and, out of the blue, without regard for a dog's situation then it could be detrimental.

As it is, though, the guy sounds like a pretty thoughtful, sensable guy who has some experience under his belt.

I'm with you. A guy that has no experience training with he ecollar being told to put it on high and "let him have it" sounds like a recipe for disaster.

Post by **Sharon** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:13 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
Stoneface wrote:I would be careful to just light a dog up for chasing, depending on the situation. If he's not been very well acclimated to a collar, is overly soft or if the situation involves a number of other issues I would tread lightly. If he's not been in contact with many game birds, even if they're in the area, he may be chasing to fill his time and may knock it off when he realizes the birds is where the fun's at. Then again, maybe not. In any case, just frying your dog without having broken him off of trash before could be detrimental. You may want to get ahold of a local pro and ask him for some help or ask him how he'd go about it with your dog. Often times pros have people over on the weekend, a big group, you bring your dogs and just spend the day hanging out and training. It's a lot of fun and I would ask around if I were you. You just don't want to ruin a dog when some time could have helped mend the problem.

If you could still provide some background on the dog, that would be great.
You don't understand trash breaking. The collor is set on high and you DO NOT speak to the dog. Just light it up till it stops chasing but you act like nothing happened. The point is to make the dog think it was the deer that shocked it and it had no connection to you. Once usually takes care of the problem but if it doesn't do it again.

Ezzy

In the "old days" they hung the unwanted fur around the dog's neck for .........days/weeks to apparently shame him. It appeared to work. i don't know what they did about deer . Probably they shot it.( the deer that is or maybe .........)

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:22 pm

Want you all to explain how they do snake breaking?

Ezzy

gotpointers · Post by **gotpointers** » Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:57 am

When you say "pointer" are you refering to English Pointer? If not what kind of pointer is it that you have?
I ask this beacause different breeds act differently. So in order to remedy the problem please let us know so we can help properly. I am suspecting its not an english pointer however the english will run deer and fur, but usually don't have that big of a fur drive and that low of a bird drive.

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:33 am

I have very little experience of training dogs to do something by using a collar but I have a fair bit of experience of training dogs not to do something by using a collar. I have used a collar on sheep chasers and on one or two deer chasers.
What works for me is to have the dog wear the collar for every outing for a few weeks until the dog has done things while wearing it with the collar not activated that it normally does . The dog then does not associate the collar with it's future actions..... it thinks the shock comes from the sheep or the deer it is actively chasing. I use a high setting on the collar for this and I repeat the nic until the dog ceases to chase. Should the dog stop chasing for a few seconds, the nic stops but if it takes just one further even slow step towards the sheep or deer , I repeat the nic. As others have said once the dog has ceased to chase following the nic the handler should make no comment to the dog either good or bad. The object of the exercise is to make the dog think it was only the sheep or deer involved in what happened to it.

I make no claims to being any kind of expert in collar usage but this works for me used as an aversive.

Bill T.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:00 am

I'm with you. A guy that has no experience training with he ecollar being told to put it on high and "let him have it" sounds like a recipe for disaster.

I am having trouble understanding why you think it is a recipe for disaster for an inexperienced guy to do it vs. an experienced guy. You have to make sure you are catching him in the act, but other than that, it really is that simple...Put it on high and "let him have it", no experience necessary.

Charlie

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:34 am

birddogger wrote:
I'm with you. A guy that has no experience training with he ecollar being told to put it on high and "let him have it" sounds like a recipe for disaster.
I am having trouble understanding why you think it is a recipe for disaster for an inexperienced guy to do it vs. an experienced guy. You have to make sure you are catching him in the act, but other than that, it really is that simple...Put it on high and "let him have it", no experience necessary.

Charlie

+1 if you see him chasing something he's not supposed to hit him hard with the ecollar as quickly as possible. Stop the stimulation right when the dog stops chasing.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:10 am

Over the years I have broke most of my dogs off deerwith the e-collar.

I actually prefer to use the e-collar for trashbreaking on a dog that has NOT been collar conditioned in any way. I WANT the young dog to think the deer or the deer scent is what did the dirty deed.

For many years I took my young traineees out to a wildlife management area where I knew there were lost of deer. I would leave the dog in the car and go find some deer or deer track. It was sand, so finding fresh track was easy. Once I found a herd or some fresh track and sign, I would go back and get the dog. I wold run the dog right into the deer or the fresh scent and the instant the dog showed any interest at all it got a full power, full duration shock. The dog's reaction was either to fereeze in place or, more often, to come screaming back to me. I just knelt down and was very concerned and sympathetic, both verbally and with my hands.

Then we would go about the rest of the run. More often than not, when the dog saw more deer, it made a beeline toward me. If it did, I would comfort the dog and reasure it that everything was all right. If, instead, it showed any interest in either deer or a fresh track...it got lit up again, the instant it either took a step toward the deer, or dropped its head to smell. Max power...max duration.

Done right... it needed to be done only once in most cases and in a couple of instances with two VERY stubborn and very driven dogs...twice. Done, basically for life.

Never had a problem with dogs chasing deer and never had a problem with a dog not wanting to hunt for birds because of it. I am quite sure they thought the deer and the deer scebnt were the cause of that pain and that impression stayed with them because I did nothing to make them think otherwise. They would see deer and look in the other direction until the deer ran off. They would come across a track and pick their heads up and get away from the scent.

RayG

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:50 am

RayGubernat wrote:Over the years I have broke most of my dogs off deerwith the e-collar.

I actually prefer to use the e-collar for trashbreaking on a dog that has NOT been collar conditioned in any way. I WANT the young dog to think the deer or the deer scent is what did the dirty deed.

For many years I took my young traineees out to a wildlife management area where I knew there were lost of deer. I would leave the dog in the car and go find some deer or deer track. It was sand, so finding fresh track was easy. Once I found a herd or some fresh track and sign, I would go back and get the dog. I wold run the dog right into the deer or the fresh scent and the instant the dog showed any interest at all it got a full power, full duration shock. The dog's reaction was either to fereeze in place or, more often, to come screaming back to me. I just knelt down and was very concerned and sympathetic, both verbally and with my hands.

Then we would go about the rest of the run. More often than not, when the dog saw more deer, it made a beeline toward me. If it did, I would comfort the dog and reasure it that everything was all right. If, instead, it showed any interest in either deer or a fresh track...it got lit up again, the instant it either took a step toward the deer, or dropped its head to smell. Max power...max duration.

Done right... it needed to be done only once in most cases and in a couple of instances with two VERY stubborn and very driven dogs...twice. Done, basically for life.

Never had a problem with dogs chasing deer and never had a problem with a dog not wanting to hunt for birds because of it. I am quite sure they thought the deer and the deer scebnt were the cause of that pain and that impression stayed with them because I did nothing to make them think otherwise. They would see deer and look in the other direction until the deer ran off. They would come across a track and pick their heads up and get away from the scent.

RayG

Personally, shocking the dog without physically seeing the deer or the dogs reaction to the deer makes me a little nervous, just because you don't 100% know that the dog is smelling the deer scent. Odds are that he is, but in the off chance he doesn't associate the shock with the deer scent you could potentially make some issues. I won't shock the dog until I see him take off after the deer. He can smell them and watch them all he wants but as soon as he starts towards them he's not going to enjoy it.

molonlave1 · Post by **molonlave1** » Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:13 pm

its an english pointer.