collar around the flank

[jimbo&rooster]

I have a GSP that is 2.5yo. I had more or less given up on him due to a lack of range, In the last 6mo after running with my younger pups he has staerted to put down a nice run. long story short, I am going to pick back up and finish breaking him.

I know that alot of people used a ECollar on the flanks, the only thing I have ever used an ECollar on this guy for has been recall so now when I am trying to overlay the collar with whoa work he naturally wants to return to me. I did most of my whoa work using a check cord from the collar back to the flank, My assumption is that the ECollar on the flank will be a natural transition....

One issue I have (ive never actually seen it done) do the dogs run ok with the collar on their flank, once they get used to it? How big of an issue is it to transition from the flank back to the neck? Is a dog run with a collar on the flank more likely to become collar wise?

Thanks
Jim

[pointshootretrieve]

Sounds to me like you only collar conditioned for one command "here"? And you may not have even done that properly? If you haven't go back and collar condition properly AROUND THE HOUSE to commands the dog has been taught and knows.

[codym]

I like the silent command system to teach whoa and intro the e-collar around the flanks. Make sure you do the yard work before you transition to the e-collar. As for them running with it on, they get use to it pretty quickly. Some pitch a little fit but once they get going it usually doesn't pose much of an issue.

[mountaindogs]

Yes they can still run with the e-collar to flank, but it'll slow him up a bit maybe at first. If he has been running with flat collar and CC on the flank it'll be an easy transition. Often the dogs are pretty sensitive to the flank collar, so might want to keep pressure very low. I would imagine you'll have to transition back to the neck collar with some yard work eventually to be sure you can wean him off of the flank collar and avoid the collarwise situation. I personally yard work condition the ecollar whoa before field work usually, so they understand one on the neck but there are millions of ways to do it. Every dog is their own... I am working a dog now that was giving me a cringy attitude with simply leash walk whoa's with NO e-collar or tug, but clicker! I have never had one that still cringed with the clicker training, since it's all working FOR the reward and not avoiding any correction. WIth him I have gone to a different method of stop to flush launcher style whoa training and his attitude has been MUCH better. All I can think is he was stopped with an e-collar at some point or burned for breaking in and the word has him jumpy. But the onwer is not "owning" up to that.

[PntrRookie]

...the only thing I have ever used an ECollar on this guy for has been recall so now when I am trying to overlay the collar with whoa work he naturally wants to return to me...

Jim, that is exactly what the deal was with a pointer I got 18 months ago. Could NOT do any e-collar work around his neck because a soon as you tickled him with it, he RAN back to you and was velcro to your leg. We first introduced the check cord/pinch collar to his flank. Worked him on a whoa post with pigeons. Once he was standing them and not lunging, we then overlapped the e-collar to his flank. ALL handling was controlled with neck e-collar and all bird work was done around the flank. Yes it can be done and it has worked nicely for this guy. Now we are going to run him without flank e-collar and when he goes on point loop the CC under the flank, hopefully he will stand, if not he will put pressure on himself with the CC...trying to see him stand without the e-collar.

FWIW...make sure you pay close attention to the remote and you are nicking the right collar...nice if they are two separate remotes.

[4dabirds]

The way I see this is the dog is using you as a safe zone. He never gets corrected when he is close to you. This may have been mistaken for the dog understanding the here command as it relates to the collar. If the dog is not responding to the command you are giving 80 percent of the time in the venue you are training in , the dog is not ready for the e-collar. If the dog is commanded to whoa and it runs back to you it is not ready for the e-collar relative to the whoa command. A proper introduction to the e-collar will teach the dog to turn off the stimulation by complying to the command. For the exact reason you are having a problem it is best to introduce the e-collar with the kennel command. The kennel command is easier to have good timing when introducing, it leaves out the possibility of the collar making you a safe place, the kennel is the safe place, And when the collar is transitioned to another behavior there is no way for the dog to go to the kennel if it is not present. The dog should know the kennel command before the intro and it is as simple as finding the lowest level the dog will feel, stimulate >command . When the dog enters the kennel the stimulation goes off. The dog learns that by complying to the command he can control the stimulation

[RoseRich]

PntrRookie,

When you say that you use pigeons with the whoa post, what exactly are you doing? I'm trying to figure out my next step and am looking at different methods, since I can't seem to get my dog loose w/ the e-collar on the flank. How do you use the post with the bird? Thanks.

[PntrRookie]

I am NOT well versed so take this with a grain of salt. I am sure there are MANY who have done this more than I. What I have done (with help of friends) is have a bag of pigeons set in tall switch grass near a physical post that is in the field. The post has a clip on it to hook the short check cord on. Bring the dog in side/down wind of the pigeons so they point near the post. Once point is established clip the check cord to the post and the other end to pinch collar that is around his flank. walk around and simulate flush, flush a pigeon. If/when dog moves he pinches himself, calm down him down, style up and continue with a couple more to see when he doesn't fight it...overlay ecollar for pinch collar...this is the cliff notes version...time, patience and read dog...

[RoseRich]

Makes sense. Thanks for the quick reply.

[gonehuntin']

The dog has the same problem many pointing dog's do, it has been only conditioned to ONE command, HERE. A collar dog has to work to ALL commands with the collar; HERE, WHOA, HEEL, FETCH, DROP, etc. The collar is the same as the heeling stick or quirt, it REINFORCES A KNOWN COMMAND.

What you will want to do with this dog is to start over with him. Let him wear the collar a couple of months whenever he is out for a walk with you or playing. Never use the collar, just let him wear it. Then after a couple of months, start him in obedience and about every third command, reinforce it with the collar. ALL OF THE COMMANDS.

It's a little more involved than this, that's the short version. You should get a good dvd on collar conditioning and follow it.

[DonF]

I don't use a flank collar or even a cc from the collar to the flank. I use the origional Delmar Smith whoa post. Yes I know he endorses his kids way, I don't. Very simple to get the e-collar going without the dog returning to you. Put him back on the whoa post, take him to the end of the cc and stand there till he moves a bit. Bump, bump, bump till he stands still. He can't come to you on the end of a cc attached to a post, all he can do is stop.

[birddog1968]

I'm not such a big fan of the hard whoa....cept maybe later on if you want to "put it on the dog" (as delmar would say).......

I like to teach em to be honest on their birds (soft whoa I call it)....then stop to flush them (i use collar on neck but flank works). Once ya got the dog STF its an easy progression to break them thru the shot and fall. Very light with excellent timing being the key.

If i was going to put a hard whoa on a dog it'd be on a board and then the whoa post.


I think there are some good ideas here, just have to find the one that doesn't recall the dog when not wanted. Gentle Trial and error kinda thing.

[birddogger]

The dog has the same problem many pointing dog's do, it has been only conditioned to ONE command, HERE. A collar dog has to work to ALL commands with the collar; HERE, WHOA, HEEL, FETCH, DROP, etc. The collar is the same as the heeling stick or quirt, it REINFORCES A KNOWN COMMAND.

What you will want to do with this dog is to start over with him. Let him wear the collar a couple of months whenever he is out for a walk with you or playing. Never use the collar, just let him wear it. Then after a couple of months, start him in obedience and about every third command, reinforce it with the collar. ALL OF THE COMMANDS.

It's a little more involved than this, that's the short version. You should get a good dvd on collar conditioning and follow it.

Exactly right. I think a lot of people make this mistake.

Charlie

[AZ Brittany Guy]

http://www.huntsmith.com/#article:15

If you persue the flank training, I suggest you read this article. If you like what you read, go to a seminar. well worth the money.