wild birds or pigeons/quail

Post Reply
molonlave1
Rank: Junior Hunter
Posts: 26
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:01 pm
Location: SOUTH AFRICA

wild birds or pigeons/quail

Post by molonlave1 » Sun Jun 17, 2012 5:23 am

Do people/trainers use pigeons to steady a dog on flush or shot because they dont have the ground with wild birds,what im trying to ask is can you steady a dog on wild birds,is it better if you have ground with wild birds or is it better to use pigeons/launchers?

Kmack
Rank: Champion
Posts: 343
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2007 7:36 am
Location: Augusta, Kansas

Re: wild birds or pigeons/quail

Post by Kmack » Sun Jun 17, 2012 6:21 am

I think using both is ideal. Start in a controlled environment with launchers then finish on wild birds.
The more finishing you can get done the better.

User avatar
Vision
Rank: 2X Champion
Posts: 407
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:01 pm
Location: rocky mountains

Re: wild birds or pigeons/quail

Post by Vision » Sun Jun 17, 2012 7:12 am

If you have wild birds there is no need to use pen raised birds. Wild birds will teach a dog everything they need to know.

User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
Posts: 16644
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Re: wild birds or pigeons/quail

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Jun 17, 2012 7:47 am

Using both seems to work best for most. Wild birds are great but there are times you need to know where the bird is and have some control over it.

Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

User avatar
Onk
Rank: 4X Champion
Posts: 693
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 7:26 pm
Location: Missouri

Re: wild birds or pigeons/quail

Post by Onk » Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:41 am

With pigeons or non-wild bird you can set the condition and spot of the training. Just my 2 cents.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/genview.php?id=3600

"I think we are drawn to dogs because they are the uninhibited creatures we might be if we weren't certain we knew better." -George Bird Evans " Troubles with Bird Dogs"

RayGubernat
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3191
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:47 am
Location: Central DE

Re: wild birds or pigeons/quail

Post by RayGubernat » Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:26 am

If a trainer is well experienced and ready for all the scenarios and situations that can happen during encounters with wild birds...THEN, of course wild birds can indeed be preferable to steady a dog on.

However, I submit that if those who would ask the question, are most probably not at that level of experience. Sorry for being blunt, but that is how I see it. I don't know for sure if I myself have sufficient training experience to break a dog on wild birds and I have been doing this a while.

There is a HUGE difference between letting a youngster run and ramble and experience birds in a wild, unstructured setting...and getting said youngster steady to wing. These are two very widely different activities.

Put me down FIRMLY on the side of steadying a dog with pigeons and launchers,or quail and launchers, or chuckars and launchers...FIRST.

Steadying a dog is about teaching and reinforcing a behavior. It is about transferring the "WHOA" that the dog learned in the back yard on a checkcord, to a live bird situation where the scent of the bird and/or the sight of the bird in the air beocmes the thing that screams "WHOA" to the dog.

Doing things in a competely controlled situation allows the trainer to know exactly what the dog is going to encounter, exactly when the dog is going to encounter it, well before the dog does. that allows the trainer to be poreparedfor the dog's reaction, whatever it may be.

That level of prepareness allows for a rapid prgression from unbroke to broke, witha minimum of fuss or muss. Once the dog is reasonabley reliably broke, THEN its previous experience with wild birds as an unfettered youngster can be brought back witht the dog now being expected to transfer the steadiness training to the wild birds in a wild setting. Then you got what you want...the way you want.

Can you do it just on wild birds? Absolutely! Earl Crangle called it the "Mexico Method". He trained for some years in Mexico which, at the time had a huge abundance of quail. Thirty to fifty covies a day level of abundance as I recall.

But odds are it is gong to take you longer. Odds are you are going to have to put more pressure on the dog. Odds are the dog will do some things that will send you backwards. Will you end up with the same dog at the end? Most likely that is a yes.

Your dog...your call.

RayG

volraider
Rank: 3X Champion
Posts: 503
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:00 pm
Location: Tn

Re: wild birds or pigeons/quail

Post by volraider » Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:07 pm

I would hunt my dog on wild birds first. And then use pigeons to get your training done. I have done it both ways now and the dog I ran on wild birds looks 10x better on all birds. If a dog doesn't know it can catch birds they seem to point their birds father off with more intensity, they think the pigeon is going to act like a grouse so they are more cautious.

User avatar
SCT
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 859
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2010 2:43 pm
Location: Utah

Re: wild birds or pigeons/quail

Post by SCT » Sun Jun 17, 2012 2:42 pm

I am in the process of breaking a well started dog (15 months old) I got from a breeder friend a few weeks ago. Prior to me getting him he was able to knock and point quail (liberated, but very wild) since he was a small pup. He was found several times after 5-10 minutes pointing quail and was already allowing Mike to get in front and flush. Mike had done a great job starting the breaking process.

In the past few weeks I've been working him in the yard and field on a long check cord with pigeons and chukars. I've used launchers a few times, but mostly use "tip ups" because he will hold point and let me get in front to flush (a credit to the breeder who started him). If I could get him into wild birds right now I would be going as often as possible, but right now I have to stick to chukars or pigeons. Another six weeks of getting him steady on pen raised birds and I'll go to the grouse moors. My plan is to let him find and point grouse and then finish his training/breaking on them. I know training will always be going on, and even though he will be my hunting partner, I hope to run him in a couple field trials this fall. Bottom line: I believe they should be broke on wild birds eventually as Ray prescribes. Only other thing I would/will try to is keep the dog happy while breaking. At least as much as possible. If he's got his tail dropped a lot of the time you're probably going too fast. The dog needs to understand what you want from him before progressing, probably the most important thing imo.

Good luck,

Steve

User avatar
DonF
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3785
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:09 pm
Location: Antelope, Ore

Re: wild birds or pigeons/quail

Post by DonF » Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:31 pm

I would not even attempt to break a dog on wild birds and I would choose pigeon's over pen raised gameirds any day. The more I can control in the breaking process the better it is for me. The problem with wild birds is you have no idea where they are when you turn the dog loose. Because of that, you may well be caught off guard when the dog finds the bird. No, you will be caught off guard! Wilds birds simply won't work with you. Pen raised birds do unpredictable things. They might run back into the dog, may not fly or may not fly far enough Pigeons the other hand are very very pridictable, they always fly, seldom if ever land back on the ground and go back home to be used again tomorrow if need be. They take a licking and keep on ticking!

The only down side, is it's up to you to determine how they are going to act. If you are check cording the dog into them, you know exactly where they are and know when to ready yourself for when the dog makes contact. You know exactly how much pressure the bird will take without flushing. You always set up the situation to suit yourself for where you are with the dog. The dog shouldn't know the difference between the pigeon and a wild bird. If it does, you are the one that messed up. To the dog pigeons are just another bird. Of course if you allow a pigeon to be a pigeon, the dog is sure gonna know the difference. I would make a bet that anyone that has one of those dog's that simply won't point a pigeon, has created that in the dog they're selves. If someone has a dog that stops on a pigeon, that to is a problem caused by training and pretty easy to straighten out.

it's quite obvious to me that God put pigeons on this earth because he to was a dog man!
I pity the man that has never been loved by a dog!

User avatar
birddogger
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3776
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:09 pm
Location: Bunker Hill, IL.

Re: wild birds or pigeons/quail

Post by birddogger » Sun Jun 17, 2012 7:39 pm

Vision wrote:If you have wild birds there is no need to use pen raised birds. Wild birds will teach a dog everything they need to know.
Not necessarily, and depending on what standard to which you want the dog trained. Using both is the ideal way to go.

Charlie
If you think you can or if you think you can't, you are right either way

User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
Posts: 16644
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Re: wild birds or pigeons/quail

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:07 pm

birddogger wrote:
Vision wrote:If you have wild birds there is no need to use pen raised birds. Wild birds will teach a dog everything they need to know.
Not necessarily, and depending on what standard to which you want the dog trained. Using both is the ideal way to go.

Charlie
Yep they serve completely different purposes.

Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

User avatar
Sharon
GDF Junkie
Posts: 8275
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 4:46 pm
Location: Ontario,Canada

Re: wild birds or pigeons/quail

Post by Sharon » Sun Jun 17, 2012 8:58 pm

volraider wrote:I would hunt my dog on wild birds first. And then use pigeons to get your training done. I have done it both ways now and the dog I ran on wild birds looks 10x better on all birds. If a dog doesn't know it can catch birds they seem to point their birds father off with more intensity, they think the pigeon is going to act like a grouse so they are more cautious.
Exactly.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote

Post Reply