Need assistance - advise

[skyehunter]

First post here, kind of in desperation...

We have a 13+ month old Brittany "Copper" that we brought into the family (2 kids) to transition the 9 year old lab "Skye" into retirement with. I have hunted and trained Labs for many years and was looking to compliment the field with a pointer. I have read many books and watched vids to make the Flusher to Pointer transition as smooth as possible. I have associated with a local Lab club to expedite my success with Skye and have not been able to adjust my traveling schedule to work with the local Pointer clubs. Certainly the most important and enjoyable thing I did to develop Skye was work with the club and its member help.

Copper seems to be developing well. He has graduated the basics, sit, stay, here, whoa, points on sight, collar conditioned, etc.. and has hunted quite extensively (at about 9 months old) in Kansas on last year’s annual trip..

So now that the resume stuff is outa the way.

My issues are:
First, Copper is soft, really soft, to the point where any correction during what is a FUN training environment, is usually the end of the session. He will sulk and become timid. Yet, the good part is, he seems to remember the correction after just one or two incidents, making for a quick learner. What bothers me is, for example, I call Copper over during a non-training environment just to give him some loving "here boy" and I have a 50/50 shot that he will go and hide or… barrel me over the sofa with kisses...If he does come over, he may even "squirt" a small amount of urine outa excitement or anticipation depending on his emotion at that time. He appears to have excited urination/stress urination issues that I fear should have resolved themself by 13+ months????

Second, I think I may need guidance and other opinions with local hunters-trainers. Both my lack of regular availability to birds, a launcher, and the such have curved the learning process for us. I buy birds locally on occasion and have a trap that works as well. I am working on a pigeon coop to resolve the pigeon issue and I am reaching out here for the latter ( some local help, field work)…I’m in central Arizona.

So…please, share you constructive advice here…and tell me it will all be ok…

Thanks in advance

[Sharon]

I'm no expert but if the dog turns out to be a good hunter, I would just live with the personality quirk. Just when you think you've got the training process all figured out, "Boom"! That's the way it goes. As you know dogs are all so different. Enjoy your dog and emphasis the positive.

[AzDoggin]

There are many pros on GDF with Brittany's - I'm sure they'll bring some good ideas. I'll toss out a few...

Don't give up on the idea of a 13 month old pup quitting the submissive peeing - he's still young. I would definitely make an attempt to avoid what you are doing that just precedes that behavior. He doesn't need to practice it any more...for commands, tone down your voice - just make them calm and matter-of-fact. You might try avoiding eye contact as the dog comes to you until he starts slowing down on the submissive stuff. No petting, no excitement when you call him to you. Just a "good boy" and a pat on the side, then go about your business. If he's running off from you when you call him, put him on a check-cord and nag him with it until he comes to you as you instructed. .

Some Brittany lines are capable of Oscar awards for their high level acting skills and some that seem 'soft' are actually really intelligent and just danged manipulative. Keep reminding yourself, though, that even soft dogs can make hellacious hunters - you just have to make adjustments in your approach with them. The fact that your dog is such a quick learner tells a lot, IMO.

In Central Az, I'd highly suggest you swap an email or phone call with kninebirddog. She's been a Brittany breeder/trialer for years, and knows all their games and shenanigans. She's in Coolidge: http://www.kninebirddog.com/index.html and also a member on GDF.

knine can recommend trainers if you want. One she may mention is Bill Gibbons http://www.magmabirddogs.com/ Bill has made a career working with all types of dogs, including softer ones. He's also a heck of a nice guy that loves to talk about what he does...

Here's some good stuff from Martha Greenlee, also a Brittany breeder/trialer: http://touchstoneweimaraners.com/sws/fi ... eenlee.pdf and an excerpt that may help with a way of thinking about training a more sensitive or reactive dog:

KEEPING YOUR DOG CALM

The calmer you keep your dog during training the less intensity is
required to train him. Intensity refers to the level of pressure you need
and includes how hard you tug with the check-cord and how much
stimulation you use with the e-collar. The more excited the dog, the
higher the intensity you need to use. The calmer the dog, the better he
pays attention and the less intensity you need.

In the West method, we try to keep the dog calm so the intensity of
tugs and nicks stay low. For example, if your dog gets amped up after
working on a launcher, you can work him on the stand command to get
him calmed down before going to the next bird set-up.

I wish I wasn't working so dang much, or I'd love to train with you. Sounds like you are developing a great dog.

Good luck (training your dog and finding wild birds around here, too)

[Kmack]

KEEPING YOUR DOG CALM

The calmer you keep your dog during training the less intensity is
required to train him. Intensity refers to the level of pressure you need
and includes how hard you tug with the check-cord and how much
stimulation you use with the e-collar. The more excited the dog, the
higher the intensity you need to use. The calmer the dog, the better he
pays attention and the less intensity you need.

In the West method, we try to keep the dog calm so the intensity of
tugs and nicks stay low. For example, if your dog gets amped up after
working on a launcher, you can work him on the stand command to get
him calmed down before going to the next bird set-up.

The same holds true of the trainer. Consistency and uniform enforcement
are easy for the dog to understand. If you, as trainer, are inconsistent and
subject to changes in temperment you will be confusing to your dog. The dog
will learn to know which state of mind (yours) he is dealing with today and will
adjust his behavior accordingly.

I took some liberties with the quote above, which is good, and turned it around a little.

KEEPING YOURSELF CALM

The calmer you keep yourself during training the less intensity you will use
training him. Intensity refers to the level of pressure you use
and includes how hard you tug with the check-cord and how much
stimulation you use with the e-collar. The more excited you are, the
higher the intensity you tend to use. The calmer you are, the better you will
be able to communicate with him and the less intensity you will have to use.

[AzDoggin]

The same holds true of the trainer.

You betcha: http://www.fieldtrialmagazine.com/pdfs/calm%20dogs.pdf

[skyehunter]

Thanks for all the advise. Some good reading there.

@ sharon, you are certainly correct. He is a hunting machine in the field, once we get past him peeing on my toes to put on his leash/collar/ or check cord you can see a switch flip and he gets to business..until he makes a boo boo, and I simply look at him cross eyed (literally), subsequently he shuts down..

...as for the quote, after having trained "Skye", hard headed and stubborn, I realized the style required for her were not going to work. Being that I am calm and consistant natured, I just directed my natural self towards Copper. Perhaps It is I who needs to "act" even more

Weel keep at it here, continue to put ur suggestions to work and see how he matures...

Thanks for your suggestions

[Garrison]

Is it any correction or a collar correction? Maybe collar conditioning didn't go as well as planned? I know there are hard and soft dogs in every breed, but as a whole I would think a field bred lab is going to take more pressure than a Britt that is on the soft side, if that is the basis for your comparison. Just a thought, but there are folks here much more knowledgable and experienced then me.

[Sharon]

Thanks for all the advise. Some good reading there.

@ sharon, you are certainly correct. He is a hunting machine in the field, once we get past him peeing on my toes to put on his leash/collar/ or check cord you can see a switch flip and he gets to business..until he makes a boo boo, and I simply look at him cross eyed (literally), subsequently he shuts down.....as for the quote, after having trained "Skye", hard headed and stubborn, I realized the style required for her were not going to work. Being that I am calm and consistant natured, I just directed my natural self towards Copper. Perhaps It is I who needs to "act" even more

Weel keep at it here, continue to put ur suggestions to work and see how he matures...

Thanks for your suggestions

Don't look at him .

[skyehunter]

@ Garrison: He exhibits the behavior unplanned or provoked. Actually, if doing field work (collar on) I hardly ever get the "conspiracy theorist" behavior or urination from him. Typically it happens on his approach, even if someone is calling him over for a treat around the house, not immediately following any corrective action.

I worked as a vet tech for about 10 years and I am not sure I have ever seen his behavior, certainly Skye cannot be used as a comparison. In all sincerity, it is a sort of multiple personality thing, unpredictable and I like to think unwarranted. But as you all have mentioned, something is or has caused it, I am analyzing (myself and family) behaviors and trying to clarify whats seem to provoke the behavior...so we can avoid any uneasyness in him.

The wife and I feel that his behavior may be due to his softness and due to stress that may be induced by our 4 yo high maintenance daughter. Our daughter has a disorder that makes her a bit of a challenge and certainly vocal. This may have stressed him out as a pup and created his "conspiracy theorist, paranoid" type behavior. Although, pup will sleep the night with our daughter and has no issue showing affection-lovin to any family member on his terms...

Thanks again everyone for the thoughts and suggestions. They help narrow the many thoughts i have been workin on to get him onboard and fun loving all the time