stop to flush drills?

zigzag · Post by **zigzag** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:45 pm

I have 6 Homers. And want to start doing some stop to flush training in the yard. The equipment I have been training with up till this point is 1 manual bird launcher, whoa barrel, CC, Pinch collar, Blank pistol, E collar. Dog is 1yr and has a good foundation on Pigeons from launchers. Foundation training on whoa, with barrel and pinch collar. He points well scents and qurters the field. Just looking for some stop to flush training drills I can do in the yard using the pigeons.

Ms. Cage · Post by **Ms. Cage** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:30 pm

We do stop to flush with a check cord and elec. launcher by bringing the dog in up wind, popping the bird,say whoa the first couple of times and then saying nothing just checking cording. elec. launchers so we have total control of the bird. Stop to flush is our first step in total steadiness.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:39 pm

zig you have a PM on the subject.

SetterNut · Post by **SetterNut** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:43 pm

Ms. Cage wrote:We do stop to flush with a check cord and elec. launcher by bringing the dog in up wind, popping the bird,say whoa the first couple of times and then saying nothing just checking cording. elec. launchers so we have total control of the bird. Stop to flush is our first step in total steadiness.

Pretty much the same here. The first time I will whoa the dog up wind of the bird and launch it while the dog is standing. Do that a couple of time, then do it while the dog is moving.

AZ Brittany Guy · Post by **AZ Brittany Guy** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:19 pm

I do stop to flush after the whoa post and yard work. I transfer the flank cord to a ecollar and dry run the dog in the open field then stoping them about 3 times in a 1/2 hour run. When I can stop the dog consistently 100 yards out with an ecollar que, then I start the stop to flush drill. Many people call it "taking the chase away".

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:31 pm

No check cord needed for this one....I do my best to avoid checkcords anymore....

if the dog is reliably pointing birds in the launcher, you can just bump bump bump him with the collar on chase.....don't say a word and use very low stim.
If the dog is NOT reliably pointing birds than I have a short program i run them thru prior to STF.....similar to whoa breaking.

I use a 1 medium first day maybe moving to a 2 low next day.....as low as works, first day you don't even really want to see a reaction.....cept you might be surprised that the dog stops chasing the third bird. 3 birds a day maybe 6 split in two sessions morning, evening....but one session has always worked well for me. It's all about being light light light with your collar taps, TIMING, and keeping your lips zipped. Its supposed to be between the dog and that confounded bird

it shouldn't take long......once you have the dog standing the flush its just an easy progression to take them right thru the steadying process.....

One note- I usually start stop to flush by dropping pigeons after whoa'ing the dog, that way you remove the scent on the ground and no bad associations can be made if Timing isnt right. That said done right with scent on the ground should have no issues anyway.

Deuce · Post by **Deuce** » Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:27 am

Bird - are you talking collar on neck or flank?

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:16 am

Neck.

bwjohn · Post by **bwjohn** » Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:09 am

I just throw the birds from behind the dog or have a partner throw them.

Scenario: Dog is on cc 10-15 feet in front. Usually we will walk in some thin cover or right on the edge of some thicker cover. I will swing the dog away from the cover, have the partner throw the bird, so that it looks like it came out of the cover, and swing the dog back toward the cover and the bird. Timing can be a little hard at first, but it improves quickly. You just don't want the dog to actually see the bird come out of the hand, that is why I turn him, and then turn him right back to the cover.

As long as the dog knows what the pinch collar is and responds to that, you can use it with this drill. Then eventually move to the collar as with anything else.

brandon

Rustyoar · Post by **Rustyoar** » Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:42 pm

Old post brought back...

Training question...can "Stop to Flush" be used instead of "Positive reinforcement training". Meaning instead of starting the dog chasing the bird after the behavior is reached(standing still) and later breaking the chase. Can we encourage standing still now and then introduce to birds in the launcher?

referencing this video..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Z73wq6E8u0

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:52 pm

On the flush as positive reinforcement starting to reinforce steady that way is interesting. I have seen this before and have these thoughts.
1) when using positive reinforcement, the reward is used to reinforce the behavior but also usually marks the END of the behavior. So if I want steady after the flush is this effective.
2) building so much enthusiasm for watching the bird fly away at the beginning may complicate the fact that usually the bird leaving is the negative reinforcer for creeping and or breaking. Smelling the bird while pointing is what I want the dog most excited about. Could this acctually encourage creeping breaking?
3) love that the bird rewards the steady behavior. Really increases the learning curve on this

Rustyoar · Post by **Rustyoar** » Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:55 pm

mountaindogs wrote:On the flush as positive reinforcement starting to reinforce steady that way is interesting. I have seen this before and have these thoughts.
1) when using positive reinforcement, the reward is used to reinforce the behavior but also usually marks the END of the behavior. So if I want steady after the flush is this effective.

No and I beleve he states as much saying most hunters only want the dog to hold the bird untilit flushes.

mountaindogs wrote:2) building so much enthusiasm for watching the bird fly away at the beginning may complicate the fact that usually the bird leaving is the negative reinforcer for creeping and or breaking. Smelling the bird while pointing is what I want the dog most excited about. Could this acctually encourage creeping breaking?
3) love that the bird rewards the steady behavior. Really increases the learning curve on this

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:57 pm

birddog1968 wrote:No check cord needed for this one....I do my best to avoid checkcords anymore....
.

Agreed, lose the cord.

Rustyoar · Post by **Rustyoar** » Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:49 pm

ACooper wrote:
birddog1968 wrote:No check cord needed for this one....I do my best to avoid checkcords anymore....
.
Agreed, lose the cord.

Ok so no cord just let him run up on the launcher over and over??? Pop the birds every time until he get it??

4dabirds · Post by **4dabirds** » Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:25 am

Dogs learn by association. If a dog stands still and a bird flushes from the cover the dog will repeat this behavior because it is seen as rewardable. Since dogs learn by association this helps to avoid the dog perceiving the taking a step as the catalyst for producing the bird. In the field you can do a restrained chase drill run the dog on a check cord throw a pigeon. As the dog starts to chase, gently stop the dog. This gets the dog used to seeing a bird flying away as normal. Since you are looking to do a yard training drill and the dog is barrel trained for whoa. Use the barrel as a cue for the dog. Place the birds so the dog can not smell them. Have the dog jump up on the barrel when the dog hits the barrel launch the bird. This drill in effect has the dog thinking that his action of getting on the barrel produced the bird. Dogs are place oriented and learn by association the dog will catch on fast. Once the dog has made this association you can place the bird where the dog can smell it. This is a good bridge that helps the dog understand the behavior of standing still is what produces the bird. I like to transition this to a board on the ground for the same drill . This is another cue for the dog that helps them understand. If the dog is going to jump off you can stake the dog to the ground next to the barrel / board . This way when the dog starts to chase he will self correct and will see it as futile. After you get the dog performing well on the board use the same drill no scent with whoa command. Say whoa launch bird and so on. If you dont have homers you can tether the birds and shoot them with a blank gun . You will get them every time. These drills are not teaching the dog to point or hunt . They are just to have the dog make the association that standing still is rewardable to the dog. If the dog sees standing still as rewardable he will repeat this behavior.

bonasa · Post by **bonasa** » Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:20 am

birddog1968 wrote:No check cord needed for this one....One note- I usually start stop to flush by dropping pigeons after whoa'ing the dog, that way you remove the scent on the ground and no bad associations can be made if Timing isnt right. That said done right with scent on the ground should have no issues anyway.

I did the same thing and they are reliable enough to hold the position on a wild, wild bird flush until I physically release them or whistle them on with no delayed chase.

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