Gun Dog Forum

I have a six month old male ES that I am working on whoa with. I can stop him on the ground at heel with just a little pressure from a slip lead around his flank. When I try to go to the e-collar on the flank he freaks out tries to bite the collar, falls on the ground and rolls around like a gut shot indian in a John Wayne movie. He knows the command, stops on the groung and on a place board, I can walk all around him and he will not move. The collar is a Tri-Tronics Upland Special G3EXP on the lowest setting. He also knows how to turn the stimulation off by going into his kennel with the collar around the neck also on the lowest setting. I guess what I am asking is this a common reaction the first couple of times?

I would read up on the whoa post as Rick & Ronnie Smith teach it. I would also check the stimulation on my neck to see if something may be off. I would also let him dry run with the flank collar on with no stimulation untill he runs freely with gusto.

You are way ahead of yourself wit trying to overlay the e collar . What you have done is trained the dog to shut off the collar by laying down. The dog does not understand the command because it is in a different context. The dog should be trained to whoa before you use the collar and it is not.

Do you have the collar set on momentary, or continuous? That can make a big difference with the dog. Thanks Jonesy

"bleep" wrote:I have a six month old male ES that I am working on whoa with. I can stop him on the ground at heel with just a little pressure from a slip lead around his flank. When I try to go to the e-collar on the flank he freaks out tries to bite the collar, falls on the ground and rolls around like a gut shot indian in a John Wayne movie. He knows the command, stops on the groung and on a place board, I can walk all around him and he will not move. The collar is a Tri-Tronics Upland Special G3EXP on the lowest setting. He also knows how to turn the stimulation off by going into his kennel with the collar around the neck also on the lowest setting. I guess what I am asking is this a common reaction the first couple of times?

Yes. LOL Don't give in.
"rolls around like a gut shot Indian in a John Wayne movie." too funny

As suggested above read the Huntsmith process of teaching a point of contact also when the over lay process begin the level/amount of stimulation the e collar gives will have a lot to do with how the dog will respond ( as is in positive response to the cue )to or react ( as is a negative reaction to the stimulation) to the cue given by the e collar

http://www.huntsmith.com/article.php?id=15 Whoa post part 1
http://www.huntsmith.com/article.php?id=16 Whoa post part 2

I cannot understand why you went to the flank collar in the first place? From what you said it seem's you had him and just decided to inject something un-needed for some reason unknown and are backing your dog up.

kninebirddog wrote:As suggested above read the Huntsmith process of teaching a point of contact also when the over lay process begin the level/amount of stimulation the e collar gives will have a lot to do with how the dog will respond ( as is in positive response to the cue )to or react ( as is a negative reaction to the stimulation) to the cue given by the e collar

http://www.huntsmith.com/article.php?id=15 Whoa post part 1
http://www.huntsmith.com/article.php?id=16 Whoa post part 2

Yup. Highly suggest you get the latest Huntsmith DVD. It details the whoa breaking process in very good detail, telling you just what to look for to know when the dog is ready to move to the e-collar on the flank. It's very well done IMO. http://www.huntsmith.com/product.php?id=16 It'll be the best $40 you'll spend.

They do show dogs in there that get "sticky" when the e-collar is strapped on the flank, even with no stimulation. You would expect that if the flank was used as the point of contact for "whoa." The trainer's job is then to get the collar on the flank (NO STIMULATION) and walk the dog around with the checkcord until the dog is behaving normally again....only then do you begin again, and with the lightest setting to which the dog will respond.

The flank is the most sensitive area, to put a ecollar on a 6 mo old there is really asking for problems.

This is not the first time he has had the collar on the flank every time I taken him out to run for the last two weeks I have put the collar on the flank, he moves very well with it on, does't do the "rodeo horse". I think I will hold off with the collar on the flank for reenforcing whoa until the dog is older. He stands nice and proud on a barrel, and on a place board I can walk all the way around him on both. Like I said in the original post he knows what the whoa command is with a slip lead on the flank. I apply some pressure when I give the whoa command while he is walking beside me he stops on a dime and will not move until I tap him on the head and release him with "OK". Might be rushing him along too fast, I'll just stick with the show pup drills for now. Thanks for the help.

"bleep" wrote:This is not the first time he has had the collar on the flank every time I taken him out to run for the last two weeks I have put the collar on the flank, he moves very well with it on, does't do the "rodeo horse". I think I will hold off with the collar on the flank for reenforcing whoa until the dog is older. He stands nice and proud on a barrel, and on a place board I can walk all the way around him on both. Like I said in the original post he knows what the whoa command is with a slip lead on the flank. I apply some pressure when I give the whoa command while he is walking beside me he stops on a dime and will not move until I tap him on the head and release him with "OK". Might be rushing him along too fast, I'll just stick with the show pup drills for now. Thanks for the help.

Sounds like a good dog and that you are moving along well with him. I agree with Snips about the age - apparently my reading comprehension isn't what it used to be.

As Delmar Smith used to say "the slower you go, the quicker you get there."

Take it from someone that has pushed too fast with a pup. There really isn't a rush.
6 months is pretty young.

Take the collar off , go have fun for a couple 3-4 months......There is no rush. Dogs remember and a long break won't set you back at all, put you ahead hopefully. I'd be letting that dog run free and bumping and chasing a little if it wanted to.....

+1

You never answered my question, is the collar set on momentary, or continuos? That will make the difference between reactions, between 8 seconds, or a blink of an eye.

Now, I wonder on something. If you established things between you an the dog, and all is going well. Why would you take the ecollar off? That is a change in the rules, or what is has sucessfully leaned from. So, why change that. To me, that is only gonna let the dog know how to get away with not working. Or, get away from what you are asking it to do. It would be the same as getting ready to work, and taking the check cord off an trying to get it to do something. It might do it, and it might wont. It wont have to now, because there isnt any control, or paying attention, between you two.

The age is a lil young imo, but if you are teaching a few manners, and not using it with the birds. It shouldnt hurt. I wouldnt overkill it. The key is you have to adjust yourself to the dog, the amounts of time, and your hands on, with the dog. Your timing is everything. The short an simple stuff will pay off, because the dog isnt put in a position to panic.

This is just my opinion, and you can think on things this way............." Its not what you do, but........ What and How you do it" You be fair and patient, and the dog will do it to. Thanks Jonesy

tailcrackin, sorry when I started him on the kennel command, I did alot of showing him what I wanted him to do. I would say kennel and push him into the kennel, starting at about three months. I got to the point that he was about 85% when I said the command. Then I overlayed the command with the e-collar on the lowest level of continuous stimulation that he could feel, which happens to be level one. I would turn on the stimulation give him the command get him into the kennel and turn off the stimulation. About five times of the stimulation coming on before the command and he would go into the kennel, he learned going into the kennel turned off the stimulation. He will go into the kennel now on stimulation alone. Now if I say the command and he does not go into the kennel all I have to do is turn on the stimulation and in he goes.
When I tried the e-collar on the flank I had it on continuous also. My plan was to do the same as I did with the kennel command. Stimulation comes on, on the flank, before the whoa command which he knows until he will stop on stimulation alone. Just rushing him too much. Going to pump my brakes and slow down with him no rush. He is only six month old kind of on the soft side.

Good post Jonsey. I also agree with some of the other posters that the OP is trying to move too fast. IMO, too many people start and push the training too fast and end up with a half trained dog. Patience is a virtue [something I haven't always had] and letting a puppy play, explore and have fun for the first several months to a year without any serious training, other than the basics and manners, will pay off in the end IMO. I have no problem taking two to three years to train/finish a dog and I have no problem taking eight, nine mos. or depending on the dog, a year old before I start formal training and taking it slow when I do start. Being able to read the individual dog will really depend on how soon to start and how fast you can proceed of course. The bottom line is take your time and do it right. There will be times when you may have to back up and start over. With that being said, you will end up with a fully trained dog instead of a half trained dog. I also agree with Jonesy on the difference between the nick and continuous with the e-collar, especially on the flank, and I hope I didn't get too far off the original question.

Charlie

"bleep" wrote:tailcrackin, sorry when I started him on the kennel command, I did alot of showing him what I wanted him to do. I would say kennel and push him into the kennel, starting at about three months. I got to the point that he was about 85% when I said the command. Then I overlayed the command with the e-collar on the lowest level of continuous stimulation that he could feel, which happens to be level one. I would turn on the stimulation give him the command get him into the kennel and turn off the stimulation. About five times of the stimulation coming on before the command and he would go into the kennel, he learned going into the kennel turned off the stimulation. He will go into the kennel now on stimulation alone. Now if I say the command and he does not go into the kennel all I have to do is turn on the stimulation and in he goes.
When I tried the e-collar on the flank I had it on continuous also. My plan was to do the same as I did with the kennel command. Stimulation comes on, on the flank, before the whoa command which he knows until he will stop on stimulation alone. Just rushing him too much. Going to pump my brakes and slow down with him no rush. He is only six month old kind of on the soft side.

Sorry "bleep", we were typing at the same time.

Charlie

Good post by Jonesey. Here's another thing: I never, as Don F said, put a flank collar on. Nor, do I ever train or hunt without a neck collar. The dog will make is living with an ecollar on. Put a flank collar on, and he knows he's in a set up from the start.

To me, the flank collar is used for special problems but most dog's I work with NEVER have one on.

Turn the juice down to just a nusiance level and go back to the heel and whoa untill the dog gets the idea of what you want. you cant use the same level on the flank as around the neck, generally about half as much.

gonehuntin' wrote:Good post by Jonesey. Here's another thing: I never, as Don F said, put a flank collar on. Nor, do I ever train or hunt without a neck collar. The dog will make is living with an ecollar on. Put a flank collar on, and he knows he's in a set up from the start.

To me, the flank collar is used for special problems but most dog's I work with NEVER have one on.

+1 , and I've never had to put a collar on a dogs flank......

MAYBE WHEN YOU GET ONE THAT CROUCHS OR LAYS DOWN YOU MIGHT FIND THE NEED

If its finding birds for the gun I don't care if it takes a nap


Why the yelling ? Not every training method or trainer needs or wants to use the flank......Isn't it grand there is always more than
one road to china.

I know a couple of very successful pro trainers that dog a lot of their birdwork drills with a flank collar on the dog. The stim level is set VERY low.

I personally do not use a flank collar for anything besides creeping and I use it on momentary at the lowest level when on the flank. I do not stimulate a dog around birds when the collar is on the neck...UNLESS the dog busts in or chases. Then it gets a correction for failure to whoa, which is an obedience command.

For most of my field training the collar is on the neck. The dogs know that point of contact and what to expect when they do not do what they have been trained to do.

RayG

birddog1968 wrote:If its finding birds for the gun I don't care if it takes a nap


Why the yelling ? Not every training method or trainer needs or wants to use the flank......Isn't it grand there is always more than
one road to china.

I agree. I personally don't use the collar on the flank. I have a time or two in the past but decided I didn't need it. However, I know of some who use it with their method of training and that is fine.

Charlie

It's not the location of the flank collar that matters as much as the ability and understanding of the person operating the transmitter.

Whoa can be trained successfully on either location, neck or flank. Good trainers can use both depending on the dog.

I have been using a combination of the George Hickox and Sherry Ray Ebert methods of training. Since this is the first pointing dog that I have trained ( started with one then got orders to go to Iraq and had to sell him back to the breeder) I just want to make sure that I do not do anything to mess him up.

"bleep" wrote:I have been using a combination of the George Hickox and Sherry Ray Ebert methods of training. Since this is the first pointing dog that I have trained ( started with one then got orders to go to Iraq and had to sell him back to the breeder) I just want to make sure that I do not do anything to mess him up.

Not knowing either of these methods is hard to comment. Generaly, mixing methods for a novice is not a great idea. If I were you I would:

1. free run the pup and let him have his first year with no major pressure. Let him chase trash birds, buttrtflys etc.

2. Pick a method that you understand from start to finish and use it.

3. Find a experienced training partner that uses your method.

4. Slow down a little and enjoy his childhood. You will never see him again as a pup.

Have fun and be patient.

I would also take the ecollar off of continuos. That is where the bad reaction from the dog is coming from....imo. I will not tell you what, why, or how, to work your dog, because that is a method you have to decide on. The one thing you will have to be careful of, imo, is if you use continuos on the neck, or flank........that dog will possibly try to fly to the kennel, so the stimulation will stop. That might be a touch of a booger you might have created. Time will tell you. Thanks Jonesy

Not to hijack, but I have noticed some pictures recently with flank collars that are Ecollars, is there a reason for that, or just the extra collar to use? Sorry I am not use to E collars yet, still have to do all my research on those and get the right one lol.

Corry

You probably shouldn't have asked that! Anymore there are few people that realize that collars do come without reciever's that shake, talk and zap!

Ghosted3 wrote:Not to hijack, but I have noticed some pictures recently with flank collars that are Ecollars, is there a reason for that, or just the extra collar to use? Sorry I am not use to E collars yet, still have to do all my research on those and get the right one lol.

Corry

The ecollar is used on the flank by some folks to apply stimulation for certian training issues.....