Bird wings in Nashville

[t.musgrave]

I'm originally from Ohio, currently I'm stationed at Fort Campbell with the Army. That being said, I have zero connections/resources here. I contacted a few of the local pheasant farms and haven't heard back yet. My fiancee adopted a lab/English setter mix who's 5months (I don't plan on making him a bird dog) and on Monday I'll be getting my Vizsla pup. I'd really like to find a few pheasant wings to throw in the freezer. Just wanted to see if anyone out there can help me out. Thanks in advance

[Mike50]

PM sent

[t.musgrave]

I appreciate the sources and I'd consider online options a last ditch effort. Hoping to find something local.

[t.musgrave]

Thank you for the advice Mike. I will definitely consider those options but I'd like that to be a last ditch effort. I'd prefer to find a local source, other than the birds I knock down during hunting season.

[ezzy333]

Theonly wings that are going to make much difference to your pup are the ones attached to the bird you knock down or the ones attached to the birds you miss. Any dried or frozen bird wing will not help a thing other than let you see her sight point a few times and a rag or plastic grocery bag will do just as well. Save your money. JMO

Ezzy

[tn red]

Ft Campbell has quite a few wild birds when your pup is ready. There are several people in that area that raise quail also if that helps.

[t.musgrave]

Theonly wings that are going to make much difference to your pup are the ones attached to the bird you knock down or the ones attached to the birds you miss. Any dried or frozen bird wing will not help a thing other than let you see her sight point a few times and a rag or plastic grocery bag will do just as well. Save your money. JMO

Ezzy

I've raised a few labs using Richard Wolters book "gun dog". I've never owned a pointer but his methods were successful and his approach regarding pointing dogs makes a lot of sense to me.

Thanks for the tip Red, do they use this forum or can you PM me their email or number? It would be appreciated!

[ezzy333]

You will find a whole lot of opposition to the Wolters books if you ask experienced dog owners and trainers. That said I know of a couple of people who followed him years ago and most came out pretty good but there was just too many things that didn't make sense. Of course you can do as you like but I just posted what I have found to be true from my experiece.

Good luck,

Ezzy

[mountaindogs]

Not fond of too much wing on a string stuff past puppy work BUT I have a zillion pheasant wings in the freezer. I use them for and inbetween for transfer to birds in trained retrieve. I am about 2.5 hours from nashville, but am driving there this week. You can PM me if you are still looking.

[t.musgrave]

As with any technique, regardless of what it applies to, it's just a technique. You can do a multitude of different things and meet the same end state. That being said, any technique learned, regardless of whether you use it or not, goes in to the proverbial "kit bag" (as we say in the Infantry). When there's a time and place, when needed, you dig around in the kit bag if your current technique is failing to do the job.

The Wolters Gun Dog program worked perfectly with the labs I've owned. If you haven't read his book, it is written for a man who lives in a suburban like area with limited time to train, and without readily available game. Fits perfectly in to my situation, and has worked previously. The only variable this time around is I'm getting a Vizsla and have never trained a pointer. Are you aware of Wolters ideas concerning teaching a dog to point? His methods seem sound to me. If you have read it, do you agree with parts of his book, or none of it at all? I believe most people these days at a minimum, start training their pups around 7 weeks if possible (based on the research provided in his book).

When teaching to point, the dog first knows the command "Woah".
A few quotes from the book;
(referring to a wing on a rod)
"Tiring him out is the key to this lesson, and besides, he is learning a very important fact: he can't catch game by chasing and bolting at it."
"The dog's pointing is a form of stalking" When he is sufficiently tired of chasing around, he will change his tactics and stalk - thus, the first point. Gently command WHOA when this happens. He will want to rush in, but the STOP command holds him. Quietly repeat the command and he'll stretch forward trying to both bolt and stop at the same time - a stanch point."

However, I am not closed minded by any means, and welcome any insight/wisdom. Anyone familiar with Wolters method, feel free to tell me why it worked for you, or why it didn't. Also, which program(or specific training lessons) did you do differently and why? For example I don't use the command stay, I say sit, the dog sits until I give the command "HERE" or "OKAY".

[ezzy333]

OK here is what I have learned over the years. I do not start any formal field training till the pup is near a year old. Up until that time I teach what I call manners. Leading, coming when called, socializing as much as possible, housebreaking, and any other things you want to teach except sitting.

I have never taught a dog to point and if I had to I would know I had made a mistake picking a pup. Dogs point out of instinct and it is not taught. Whoa is a command to stop and has little to do with pointing or any bird work. Pups will point when they are ready and your job for those first few months is give the pup the opportunity to point with weekly walks that are done at the pups speed and the handler not talking. It will happen. If you have to whoa a dog how are you going to do that when you can't see the dog or it is 300 yards or more out in front of you?

Actually I find that most serious bird work starts after the pup has had a year in the field. Any good pointing dog has to have a degree of independance unlike a retreiver who you want to control at all times.

Ezzy

[birddogger]

You will find a whole lot of opposition to the Wolters books if you ask experienced dog owners and trainers. That said I know of a couple of people who followed him years ago and most came out pretty good but there was just too many things that didn't make sense. Of course you can do as you like but I just posted what I have found to be true from my experiece.

Good luck,

Ezzy

+1. The wing serves no purpose for a pointing dog other than entertaining yourself by getting the puppy to sight point. And as was said, the same thing can be accomplished with a rag, sock, plastic bag, etc. All it amounts to is an object moving around that the puppy chases but can't catch, so he starts pointing it, and the wing is simply and object, no different than the other things mentioned. It is just a game you can play for your entertainment but has no training value. Like Ezzy, I am only speaking from experience and whatever you use to play the game, I would suggest not over doing it, or there is an outside chance that it could cause problems later on by causing the dog to crowd birds, trying to sight point rather than pointing on first scent.

Charlie

[t.musgrave]

Charlie, would a fresh wing not carry the scent needed? One of the reasons I'm trying to find a local source.

Ezzy

I'm still curious, have you read Wolters Gun Dog book? It clearly lays out the mental development of pups as they grow, all backed by scientific research. Not only is it proven by his dogs and many others, but the research done was based on guide dogs for the blind. I'm not going to skim the first few chapters for exact quotes, but here's the skinny. The academy was taking the best pups from the best litters possible. The graduation rate was somewhere around %20. Once the researchers unraveled the dogs mind as a puppy, defined it in stages, and made a suggestion (acceleration), 90%+ were graduating the academy. However another point Wolters makes is, as long as your training and teaching your pup on a daily basis during these critical stages, he will always have the capacity to learn later in life. So my question to you is, are you worried about hurting the dogs confidence?

I agree that dogs point out of instinct. A dog's instinct is in fact to stalk, pointing is a bi-product. His instinct is to also pounce and kill the bird for a meal, is it not? I doubt that in the dog's primal instinct it tell him to stalk, then wait for something to kill the bird for him. As far as whoa, Wolter's philosophy is the same way I teach my dog to sit, it's simple and it makes sense. Once he has the dog doing a staunch point, he continues the whoa command (which the pup learned earlier in training). Walking around the pup at different angles (so hunters approaching from different angles don't have the dog break), and eventually being able to walk away , come back, and the pup is still pointing. Also, Even if the pup doesn't point right away, it's not a lost cause, and it can be taught. Taking the pup on weekly walks would be ideal.... for a person who has the time and game around them.

Another point he makes. You want your pointer to work close to you the first year of hunting. You want to be able to have EYES ON that dog to make any corrections. It's also much easier to push a dog further out when you want, as opposed to trying to get him to hunt closer to you once he's used to a wide range.

Ezzy I'm not disagreeing with you at all, just stimulating the mind and some ideas. What do you disagree with concerning what I've written? Also, if you have a way, and you consider it to be better, can you elaborate on it and tell me why it makes sense to you? Thanks

[birddogger]

Charlie, would a fresh wing not carry the scent needed? One of the reasons I'm trying to find a local source.

Well, I am sure that is the idea but bird parts just don't smell like live birds. As I said, it is just an object that the puppy is trying to catch. If you want to use wings, there is nothing wrong with it as long as you don't over do it. We are only trying to explain that there is no advantage, or really any reason to use them. I would also suggest researching the different books and/or dvds on training pointing dogs. Having said that, you really don't need to worry about any serious training for a while.

Good luck and enjoy your puppy,
Charlie

[t.musgrave]

Thanks Charlie, and I agree that a fresh wing wouldn't smell the same as a live bird. What programs would you suggest? What have you tried in the past? For my knowledge, have you read Wolter's book? I understand your reasoning, I'd just like to see what methods you use and why you think they're better so I can make a sound judgement.

[birddogger]

I really haven't read a lot of books, but there are a couple of inexpensive ones that I would recommend. My favorite one is probably "Training pointing dogs" by Paul Long. It is a very easy book to read and understand. It is a little dated but still has some sound methods and was written by an excellent trainer in his time. Another recommendation would be "Training with Mo" by Maurice Lindley which is another easy to read book with sound methods. I believe these books are good for beginners because the methods are easy to follow and understand. Delmar and Ronnie Smith have some good stuff out there as does Evan Graham. I haven't read the Wolters book, just as I haven't really read many of the books out there, but I am sure the vast majority of pointing dog people would recommend almost any of them over the Wolters book. Of course finding a mentor or joining a club to gain experience and knowledge is probably the best bet.

Charlie

[birddogger]

I forgot to mention that you may also want to check out the Perect start/Perfect finish dvds.

Charlie

[mountaindogs]

I have read it. I like his game dog and water dog books for retrievers but my pointing dogs just have different brains. When I started training I would have said differently. But now I can safely say it's potential to cause more issues than it helps is pretty high. Also many dogs flat out won't sight point
. Will never stop chasing until you put them in a field on a real bird, then wham! Best point you could ask for. Other get so chase driven you have a serious fight to get steady past flush. But as ezzy said, most just push their birds in tight and always want to see them. Which can work with some birds but if the birds don't flush then they are usually catchable. And without that string on them after you dog breaks the game and catchesseveal times, how are you going to stop that? Its not at all like reinforcing a sit! Its a whole different deal.

[mountaindogs]

Also good bird dogs can smell the difference between a live bird, a dead bird, a wounded bird, i swear they can smell the ones that wont fly well, and a wing is so very different. They will smell it but they will not treat it like a bird. Maybe the occasional dog will, but I have never seen one treat wings like a bird at all.

[t.musgrave]

I agree, the dogs nose is amazing. I was talking to a military tracking dog handler. A dog can smell the difference between in tact grass and grass that has been stepped on/ broken. I had always assumed they were just following the scent of the person they were chasing.

So, strictly speaking about pointing and the commands associated with it. Can you guys list the programs or techniques you've tried over the years? The pros and cons of each, and which method you decided was best and why? That would be very helpful. Thanks

[mountaindogs]

You must be a retriever person. They are masters at "what program do you follow?" There are lots of retriever programs, though to me from the outside they seem very similar. I think with birddogs you are still using methods but programs are not nearly as spelled out... But semantics aside... I have started cliker training alot in training. Using some techniques similar to Willow Creek, and sortof changing with the dog as the dog needs. Introducing alot more concepts with young dogs but not using force until they mature. But eventually, if you want a dog to hunt on junky pen raised birds, you are gonna have to add some "have to" training in the end. The trick is, birddogs are so much istinct that you can take alot away if you push to hard. You may not completely ruin them, but you will have less of a dog than you could have. Although there is yard work, you need field time to make a birddog. ALOT of field time preferably.
whoa as EZZY says, completely away from birds. It just means stop in a standing position and stay that way until I send you for a retrieve. The dogs naturally should point, and naturally hold for a decent amount of time. Whoa can extend it to a finished dog.

You can look Up those mentioned above.
There are a couple of different methods, but you will have a hard time getting a straight answer on this with a pointing dog. Most people I think follow a sort of path, but it changes course a bit with each dog and each goal.
Try asking for book and DVD reccomendations . I think it'll work better for you.

Perfect start/ Perfect Finish DVD
Goerge Hickox
Delmar Smith (Take his "happy timing" to HEART!!)
Ronnie Smith

There is a Chapter of NAVHDA that meets in Middle TN. Look up Midsouth chapter of NAVHDA and get on the mailing list. I can send the link if you can't find it. Also the Kentuckiana Pointing Breeds Association might have events within a few hours of you. There is an East TN pointing dog club too, but not sure the official name. Get to some training days and get on real birds! Or find a nearby trainer like Walnut Hill, or Gundog Development and go for sessions with your dog. Will make a world of difference.

Very good luck hope that helps a bit.

[t.musgrave]

Mountaindogs you are absolutely correct, total retriever guy, first pointer I've owned. I do believe in having programs, with everything. That being said I realize that no matter how good your plan is, at some point you're going to have to change things up. I'm just trying to get as much information as I can before I start training this pup on anything "pointer" related. I'm very interested in NAVHDAGA, I've contacted Charles requesting a little information but it sounds like it would be right up my alley.

In other news, my Vizsla Hoss took to the water like a duck yesterday. First time around water and he hopped right in, swam around for a few minutes. Went back today with the same results. Used a rag on the end of my pole to verify he's a pointer. Wore him out a little bit and he went in to stalking mode. Held his point on it for 2 minutes. Not sure how common it is for a pup to hold a point for that long without the trainer saying anything, but I am pumped. Anyways, thanks for the advice fella's.

[Johng918]

I'm not even close to a pro trainer but have been around GSP'S and EP'S since I was a kid and you deal with a lot more false pointing in the field when you teach by sight (wing on string) they will point just about anything that moves in the brush. And if I need to whoa one of my dogs so they don't flush birds when someone is walking up that tells me they need more work on birds. The less commands you use the better the dog is trained.

[t.musgrave]

I don't plan on training him with the wing on a string technique. Just playing with the pup and checking out his skills at the same time.

[Johng918]

But by doing it you have already trained him to point by sight. I know it's fun but a lot of times cause more work down the road but that's my opinion and I know a lot of people that do it.

[mountaindogs]

No need to sweat the past. Its like SIT with birdogs in that a little is okay but alot is a headached to fix. How much alot is depends on the dog though...
Any time you want to come to my place and train let me know. I can always use the help. I actually have a lab puppy on the way so ill be swinging the other way myself. Could use a knowledgable bumper person. If you'll PM me your email i can forward the NAVHDA training day invites to you until you get on the list. WELCOME TO THE BIRDDOG ADDICTION!