GSP Seems to have lost interest in Pigeons

[riden]

Hi, I just found this forum.

This is my first upland dog. He is an 8 month old GSP. I have been following George Wilcox's training program. I am green, green, green

I got some pigeons last week and have been playing fetch with locked wing birds. Yesterday or the day before, I tried Wilcox's method to introduce gun fire. I have often taken a 22 on walks with him and just fired randomly, he seemed to care less. But I had my daughter about 60 yards away with a 22. I would throw the pigeon. and just when he was about to get the bird, she would shoot. I was surprised at his reaction, he stopped and looked around. And didn't chase teh bird. I had her move further away, and did it again. Same reaction.

I was shocked bluntly. Tonight, I tried again with a bird, no gun. He headed over to the bird same as always and when I started playing fetch, he chased it once, stopped and looked like he was waiting for a shot. And that was the end of that. Never chased it again. I am a little worried.

It is possible I might have made him timid, but I think it was the gun. I injured my ankle a month ago, it is about 65% now. He is reallly excited when chasing the pigeons and I worry about him getting his check cord around my ankle and yanking it. Maybe I have been too firm?? I really don't know.

Open to advice.

I thought having him chase a clipped wing bird might add to the fun for him, so I I tried that after tonight. Well,that pigeon flew about 5 laps around my yard and took off. I think I did it wrong :roll:

[Sharon]

Don't be blaming yourself . These things happen. That's why we love training. It's challenging.

I don't know what the problem is but it could be too many pen birds, too many repetitions , not enough funnnnn etc. Move the gun back a 100 + yards. The .22 has actually quite a crack to the sound. A small guage shotgun would be better. Dogs change in maturity and experience as the weeks go by too.
In a couple weeks you can get him on some wild birds and things should turn around.

[Cajun Casey]

The dog needs to be full blown out chasing a flying bird before you fire a gun around him again.

[cjhills]

Give him a break from the gun for awhile. Try some chasing and retrieving Then have her shoot first and then throw the bird he needs to associate the sound of the shot with a bird.
Maybe a quieter gun. Definitely a time to proceed with caution. Some dogs loose interrest in pigeons. CJ

[Pappy]

I would lay off the gun for a while. I would introduce a live bird to him and have him chase it and catch it. This will get his interest and excitement in him again. I had a dog that I was training on retrieving birds. This is what had happen to me. I had the dog in the whoa position. I went to throw the frozen bird, the dog jump up and I pretty much knock him out. He was done with retrieving birds. I was devastated. After a week or so I was by the bird pen where I had some quail. One got out, he chased it and caught it. That was all it took. He was right back to retrieving dead birds for me.

About the gun training. I would suggest making loud noises around him while he is eating his food. I would start out making low sounds then increasing them in time. I use a book and slam it to the ground. A cap gun also works after using the book for a while. I then use a blank pistol. I have done this method with all of my dogs and never had a problem with them being gun shy. I well take them to the field and start them to retrieve the dummy like you did and then shoot the blank pistol. I watch closely for any signs of reaction to the shot. Next after a weak, I will introduce the 4/10 shotgun. I will have my son off in the distance and I will have the dog retrieve the dummy and I have him shoot the gun. I well watch the dog to see if he reacts. Never had a problem doing this method. I then work my way up to the 20 gage and then the 12 gage. My pointer that I am training now did look at the sound of the shot but it just never did seem to bother him. I think he was just interested in it. Be patient and take your time on breaking him in with the gun. Good luck.

[4dabirds]

The idea behind what you are doing is that the dog does not hear the gun due to its excitement over the bird. It should be completely subliminal. Any reaction to the gun means you were too close with the gun. It is not about acclimation or desensitizing the dog to noises. If the dog is afraid of loud noises making them around the dog will make it worse. Build the dogs prey drive up again and when the dog is aggressively chasing birds reintroduce the gun , any response to the gun go back and work on chasing be sure to be at least a hundred yards with gun fired in opposite direction, firing the gun on walks did not show you the dogs thoughts but you could see it once the bird was involved. The bird is the telltale . Take your time a gun shy dog is useless in the field.

[AZ Brittany Guy]

Less is better with dogs. Keep sessions short and sweet and always try to end on a positive note. Like other posters recommended, only fire a gun when the dog is in full chase of a flyimg bird . In real life you don't fire your gun in the middle of a retreive. Its hard for enthusastic new people to just train a dog for 15 minutes and take a few hours break. I try to limit my bird work to 2-3 days a week to try to keep the dogs fresh and enthusiastic.

[PntrRookie]

...I have often taken a 22 on walks with him and just fired randomly, he seemed to care less. But I had my daughter about 60 yards away with a 22. I would throw the pigeon. and just when he was about to get the bird, she would shoot....

Timing is EVERYTHING! The dog associated getting the bird with a big loud noise right before he got the bird (as if you were YELLING NO!!!!!!!!!). So his reaction now is that he does not want the bird.

As the others stated. forget the gun fire or loud noises for a while. Pop some birds/throw some pigeons around him/get the wings flapping and let him chase and have fun. Over, and over and over and REPEAT. Until you see that drive come back.

[DonF]

Even though I'm not sure you used the 22 right, that is the reason I don't introduce dogs to gun fire around birds. The 22 should be a rifle and hold the muzzle about 4" off the ground to start. Let the pup be about 20-30 yds out when you fire. Let the pup be intrested in whatever catches it's eye and fire then. That close to the ground, the shot will be greatly muffled. As the pup goes along with no problem, start pulling the muzzle a bit more off the ground.

If the pup shows a sign that the gunshot bothered it, ignor the pup and keep on walking. Do not comfort the pup, ignor it and keep going. Put the gun up for that lesson. But, keep going, very important. It was bothered a bit by the shot, remove the shot and keep on with the walk.

[4dabirds]

Even though I'm not sure you used the 22 right, that is the reason I don't introduce dogs to gun fire around birds. The 22 should be a rifle and hold the muzzle about 4" off the ground to start. Let the pup be about 20-30 yds out when you fire. Let the pup be intrested in whatever catches it's eye and fire then. That close to the ground, the shot will be greatly muffled. As the pup goes along with no problem, start pulling the muzzle a bit more off the ground.

If the pup shows a sign that the gunshot bothered it, ignor the pup and keep on walking. Do not comfort the pup, ignor it and keep going. Put the gun up for that lesson. But, keep going, very important. It was bothered a bit by the shot, remove the shot and keep on with the walk.

With all due respect Don , you are missing one of the most important behavioral aspects of dogs , they learn by association. Firing the gun in the field with the intention of acclimating the dog to noise would rely on the dog having some form of logic which they do not have. They only perceive there environment as being safe or dangerous , thats a fifty- fifty crap shoot the dog will pick the right one.While I can agree that introducing the gun in the presence of a bird has the propensity to turn bad, especially when the person implementing the drill has no experience, it should be no more dangerous then shooting the gun without the bird. Either way the dog has to be conditioned to the gun in the presence of a bird at some time. While in this case it seems obvious to me that the dog had an experience with the gun previously and while it may not have been evident to the owner that it effected the dog ,the end result was an unwanted association with the bird. The association that was expected was not made even though the dog has had some exposure to the gun. When firing a blank gun in the field without the full chase of the bird, it is impossible to know what association the dog will make . Does it go undetected that the dog will now avoid yellow flowers because it was looking at one while it heard an unpleasant noise, or perhaps a chickadee was the culprit. There is no way of knowing. When the dog is in full chase of a pigeon or quail you know what the dogs attention is on. If the gun is kept at a subliminal effect (at least a hundred yards) and the dog shows no interest in it and is concentrating on the bird you can judge your progress fairly well allowing step by step progress until the goal of reaching guns = birds. Without creating this association first, you leave yourself open to having the association made later, when you can not control the outcome and it may be a negative one.

[Chukar12]

With due respect to George Hickox, and I have a great deal of respect for him...no outcome is guaranteed. My digestion of his teachings is to do your best to secure the environment and base that environment on what trainers with empirical knowledge deem the most probable to be successful. A young dog in pursuit of game is likely to be fueled by its most aggressive state of mind and a heavy release of adrenaline. Its equally likely that a dog in this state would probably either dismiss or make a positive association with a gun or loud noise especially if it is distant; rather than the noise being the primary focus in its interaction with the environment... but it doesn't guarantee it.

Based on the original posters explanation, I believe he or she is dealing with a dog on sensory overload. The noise and the bird created an association that 4DAbirds speaks of that is at best confusing and at worst possibly frightening. In my opinion at this point, the mastery of the bird is more important than the gun. A puppy or dog that is an aggressive enough predator around birds for my liking will not be bothered by .22 fire at a distance. Therfore if it was my dog, I would make sure it was that much predator first. I would let it chase and even eat birds if necessary. Hickox, Smith and a number of other trainers I could quote suggest that the gunfire is introduced in pursuit. The OP described it as "when he was just about to get the bird" that sounds different than chasing to me and the dog's state of mind would most assuredly be different, especially if it had any trepidations about the critter it was expecting to engage forthwith.

I would get the chase first, aggressive chase and it shouldn't take long; and then go back to the .22 or a blank at full chase 100-200 yards away.

[4dabirds]

Guaranteeing the outcome should always be your goal. I know this is Georges mantra. It might not always be possible for us mere mortals ,but when you are doing a drill it should be with that goal in mind. If you are putting a dog into a situation to see how the dog will react to it you have not done your due diligence. Big plus one on the prey drive. Another thought came to me when I reread the post, locked wing birds are not going to produce that adrenaline laced chase that a clip winged bird will produce. Next time use a clipped wing. Rubber bands on the birds wings above what would be the elbow ,works as well a pulling the flight feathers and allows you to use the birds as full flight birds right away.